Men's Rights Movement - More on the Manosphere

[AgeofKnowledge]

No one in this thread is asserting that most women file divorces to gain monetarily. I'm not. But in this environment of easy divorce, self-centered materialistic immoral society, and increasingly anti-straight godly male culture: Women file divorces in droves.

The point is that it is immaterial to these young men why women file divorces. They simply don't want to be in a position where a divorce gets filed on them and the easiest way to ensure that is to never marry in the first place.

Your statistics show that secular feminists and their liberal allies have done a lot of damage on single mothers and their children. All the feminist jokes that women just need males for their sperm and that they don't need males doesn't appear very funny or true when you look at the statistics. Obviously, secular feminism is no more desirable for a single mother and their children than it is a divorced husband.

 

[Angela53510]

From my experience with women who are getting divorced, it is usually because of either physical abuse, or adultery on the part of the man. You would have to be pretty desperate to get a divorced and live in poverty, which is what happens to most women who get divorced.

In Canada:

"Women and other marginalized groups disproportionately experience povertyWomen form the majority (about 53%) of people living in poverty in Canada. About 12% of all Canadian women, and 11% of Canadian men live in poverty.1 Further, certain groups of women are dispropor- tionately affected by poverty.
• Single mothers: 51.6% of lone parent families headed by women live in poverty
• 41.5% of single, widowed or divorced women over 65 live in poverty
• 35% of women on their own under 65 live in poverty
• 44% of Aboriginal women living off reserve, and 47% of Aboriginal women living on-reserve live in poverty. The average annual income for Aboriginal women is $13,300, compared with $18,200 for Aboriginal men and $19,350 for non-Aboriginal women.
• New immigrant women between 25-44 years old who have a university degree and work full-time earn $14,000 less than Canadian-born women. 2"

"Women in poverty experience particular gender-based harms
Women living in poverty are especially vulnerable to domestic violence because their poverty makes it difficult for them to escape male violence at home. Women whose housing or financial situation is precarious may also end up being sexually exploited in the sex trade."

http://www.leaf.ca/education/documents/EdHO_Women_Poverty.pdf

 

[presidente]

The average mother isn't getting a divorce or avoiding marriage because they have a "high probability" of getting child support. If the probability of getting child support was so high, there wouldn't be millions of single mothers and children living below poverty level. Are there greedy mothers out there who are largely motivated by financial gain rather than the preservation of family life? Absolutely, but that's not the overwhelming picture of single motherhood in America. The overwhelming face of single motherhood in America is poverty.

That first sentence doesn't follow, logically, since so many single mothers had children out of wedlock. Some single mothers are divorced, but many had children out of wedlock as well.

Realistically, a divorce usually decreases the resources of those effected by it. Before, the family lived under one roof. After the divorce, what used to be one family has to have two residences. Any other 'synergy' of cost savings caused by pooling resources (e.g. an insurance discount or deduction for married filing jointly) are lost.

But if there is a woman thinking about divorce, the possibility of getting the children and child support can create perverse incentives. If she knew she would have no means of support and there was a high chance or 50% chance of not getting to see her children much, this could influence her decision to stay with the family. It's not the only factor. A society that accepts divorce so readily and a number of other philosophical factors weigh in. I've read that 65 to 70% of no-fault divorces are filed by wives.

Of course, every case is different.

 

[Angela53510]

You are out of touch with the reality of why so many women get divorced, presidente! They don't get divorced to stick it to some man, whom they have loved, served, and born his children.

They get divorced because the man has committed adultery or because of abuse.

Then the majority live in POVERTY!

What don't you get about this situation? Women are not divorcing to take a rich man to the cleaners. They are divorcing because their life is threatened, and/or they have been betrayed.

No woman wakes up one morning and decides it would be so much better to live on her own in poverty, and dumps a man who is kind and loving and caring. Women leave because they are afraid for themselves and their children. Or because of the fear of STD's and the betrayal of adultery.

I can't tell you the number of women I know who have left because of continuous adultery. Just waiting to find out if they have AIDS or some other STD is bad enough, let alone knowing you have been thrown out for a younger(?) or just more aggressive, sleazy woman.

I know if there was no child support, many women would still leave their lying, abusing, and cheating husbands. Because they live in poverty anyway after a divorce.

 

[proverbs35]

That first sentence doesn't follow, logically, since so many single mothers had children out of wedlock. Some single mothers are divorced, but many had children out of wedlock as well.

Realistically, a divorce usually decreases the resources of those effected by it. Before, the family lived under one roof. After the divorce, what used to be one family has to have two residences. Any other 'synergy' of cost savings caused by pooling resources (e.g. an insurance discount or deduction for married filing jointly) are lost.

But if there is a woman thinking about divorce, the possibility of getting the children and child support can create perverse incentives. If she knew she would have no means of support and there was a high chance or 50% chance of not getting to see her children much, this could influence her decision to stay with the family. It's not the only factor. A society that accepts divorce so readily and a number of other philosophical factors weigh in. I've read that 65 to 70% of no-fault divorces are filed by wives.

Of course, every case is different.

I said "avoiding marriage" to capture single mothers who had never been married. Perhaps, I should have said "avoiding wedlock." We don't know how many of those single women with children living below the poverty level are divorced or had children out of wedlock. However, the overall point is the same. These single mothers (whether divorced or never married) and children aren't getting rich or living in the lap of luxury on public assistance and/or child support. They are barely getting by.

"Almost 36% of American impoverished children -- 5.9 million kids -- live with married parents. If we include low-income families -- people who are just one missed pay check, one illness or one divorce away from poverty -- the figure rises to nearly 50%." Marriage is not antidote to poverty - CNN.com

5.9 million kids that live with married parents are impoverished vs. 28 million kids that live with a single mothers are impoverished. That disparity is staggering!! However, marriage does not guarantee that couples with children will avoid living in the low income bracket and/or poverty. Like the data suggests, many low income families are just a "missed pay check" away from poverty. Research also shows that in modern-day America, "most individuals who experience poverty as adults grew up in married-parent households."NCCP | Ten Important Questions About Child Poverty and Family Economic Hardship

The unfortunate truth is that the American economy has changed drastically over the years. Many provisions that used to be available for working class people simply aren't available anymore.

 

[proverbs35]

No one in this thread is asserting that most women file divorces to gain monetarily. I'm not. But in this environment of easy divorce, self-centered materialistic immoral society, and increasingly anti-straight godly male culture: Women file divorces in droves.

The point is that it is immaterial to these young men why women file divorces. They simply don't want to be in a position where a divorce gets filed on them and the easiest way to ensure that is to never marry in the first place.

Your statistics show that secular feminists and their liberal allies have done a lot of damage on single mothers and their children. All the feminist jokes that women just need males for their sperm and that they don't need males doesn't appear very funny or true when you look at the statistics. Obviously, secular feminism is no more desirable for a single mother and their children than it is a divorced husband.

This thread is about men's rights and the manosphere, and "child support" is pretty much a buzz word or phrase in that discussion, but I already commented on the issue of child support.

The reasons for divorce are worth fleshing out. Studies show that the biggest cause of divorce is money problems. Couples often have financial problems and argue over money leading to divorce. Rather than discussing how debt and other factors like sex outside of marriage (which you mentioned) can contribute to divorce and the breakdown of the family unit, it appears that some groups would rather almost exclusively point the finger at women and/or feminism. However, we spend so much time debating, disparaging or defending feminism that we omit some real reasons for divorce like debt.

How to Avoid This Leading Cause of Divorce - Jim Daly

Divorce Study: Financial Arguments Early In Relationship May Predict Divorce

There is a strong link between domestic related disputes and economic hardship. "Police are encountering more domestic violence related to the sluggish economy, a national survey of law enforcement agencies finds ... When stresses in the home increase because of unemployment and other hardships, domestic violence increases." Domestic violence rises in sluggish economy, police report – USATODAY.com

If debt is one of the biggest causes for divorce, then the current economic climate is a pressure cooker for it. Coincidentally, this story has been in the headlines recently. Actor Michael Jace and his wife were in a furious fight over money before he shot her. ‘Shield’ star, wife were fighting over money before shooting | Page Six That's just one example of how debt can have an adverse effect on marriage and the stability of family life.

I said all that to say, rather than almost exclusively blaming feminism for everything, it would be very helpful to discuss how debt can play a significant role in the breakdown of marriage, family and society.

Christian and financial expert Dave Ramsey urges couples to discuss money, debt and financial stewardship prior to marriage. In other words, don't wait until after or shortly before marriage to discuss financial matters. I applaud Dave Ramsey for offering some real marriage saving and strengthening solutions rather than simply blaming everything on feminism. Four Things to Talk About Before Marriage - daveramsey.com

After all, "an ounce of prevention is worth an ounce of cure." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[faroukfarouk]

This thread is about men's rights and the manosphere, and "child support" is pretty much a buzz word or phrase in that discussion, but I already commented on the issue of child support.

The reasons for divorce are worth fleshing out. Studies show that the biggest cause of divorce is money problems. Couples often have financial problems and argue over money leading to divorce. Rather than discussing how debt and other factors like sex outside of marriage (which you mentioned) can contribute to divorce and the breakdown of the family unit, it appears that some groups would rather almost exclusively point the finger at women and/or feminism. However, we spend so much time debating, disparaging or defending feminism that we omit some real reasons for divorce like debt.

How to Avoid This Leading Cause of Divorce - Jim Daly

Divorce Study: Financial Arguments Early In Relationship May Predict Divorce

There is a strong link between domestic related disputes and economic hardship. "Police are encountering more domestic violence related to the sluggish economy, a national survey of law enforcement agencies finds ... When stresses in the home increase because of unemployment and other hardships, domestic violence increases." Domestic violence rises in sluggish economy, police report – USATODAY.com

If debt is one of the biggest causes for divorce, then the current economic climate is a pressure cooker for it. Coincidentally, this story has been in the headlines recently. Actor Michael Jace and his wife were in a furious fight over money before he shot her. ‘Shield’ star, wife were fighting over money before shooting | Page Six That's just one example of how debt can have an adverse effect on marriage and the stability of family life.

I said all that to say, rather than almost exclusively blaming feminism for everything, it would be very helpful to discuss how debt can play a significant role in the breakdown of marriage, family and society.

Christian and financial expert Dave Ramsey urges couples to discuss money, debt and financial stewardship prior to marriage. In other words, don't wait until after or shortly before marriage to discuss financial matters. I applaud Dave Ramsey for offering some real marriage saving and strengthening solutions rather than simply blaming everything on feminism. Four Things to Talk About Before Marriage - daveramsey.com

After all, "an ounce of prevention is worth an ounce of cure." - Benjamin Franklin

Some sensible comments here.

I don't necessarily agree that ever higher rates of welfare would theoretically create happy families (I don't think this is being claimed anyway).

But yes, short fuses can be about zipper trouble, but also about money, money, money.

 

[presidente]

You are out of touch with the reality of why so many women get divorced, presidente! They don't get divorced to stick it to some man, whom they have loved, served, and born his children.

They get divorced because the man has committed adultery or because of abuse.

Then the majority live in POVERTY!

What don't you get about this situation? Women are not divorcing to take a rich man to the cleaners. They are divorcing because their life is threatened, and/or they have been betrayed.

I don't have stats to prove it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of female initiated divorces that were unilateral were a woman's reaction to issues like adultery, substance abuse, the husband not working, etc. But I also believe a number of divorces are initiated by women who are unsatisfied with their marriages for less serious reasons-- 'falling out of love', finding herself. There are also wives who divorce their husbands and go to their lovers. There is no one-size-fit-all situation for divorce.

If you do read a few sob stories on marriage forums about divorce, you'll find all kinds of scenarios, including the scenarios where the husband has tried to do his best and hasn't cheated, but his wife loses interest and wants out. You can also find stories about husbands treating their wives the same way.

In some states, like mine, in 9 out of 10 cases, the wife gets primary custody of the children. As far as I know, a spouse being the one to destroy the marriage because she was bored with the marriage or because she wanted another man (if she isn't too obvious about it) aren't the key factors in deciding where the children go. Even if the man is the victim (e.g. divorced without what would have served as grounds decades ago), he can still be reduced to a visitor in his children's life, and finance his wife's plan to leave him and move on without him through child-support payments.

If a divorce is no-fault, IMO, that doesn't mean child custody needs to be treated as no-fault. Unless they can both agree completely on a situation, judges should consider who was at fault in dissolving the marriage. If someone just wanted out, that should be viewed very negatively for child rearing. The non-covenant-breaker should have an advantage.

No woman wakes up one morning and decides it would be so much better to live on her own in poverty, and dumps a man who is kind and loving and caring.

But she may wake up and decide she's sick of her caring, boring husband, and has been for a long time, and has been dropping subtle hints at it for years, so she decides to divorce-- without considering the financial implications, or just taking a risk that she won't end up in poverty. She's had some kind of emotional itch that he hasn't been scratching and she wants to go somewhere else.

Not every woman is like that. I would consider that to be a bad wife. But there are plenty of bad wives and bad husbands in our North American culture, and I don't think the picture I painted was that unusual.

Women leave because they are afraid for themselves and their children. Or because of the fear of STD's and the betrayal of adultery.

Many women leave for those reasons. Not all women are reasonable, and some leave for unreasonable reasons, too.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

In my experience with men who are getting divorced; it is usually not because of adultery or physical abuse on the part of the man. We must live on two different planets Angela.

On your planet, half of all men are vicious beasts that beat their wives and cheat on them. That's not statistically true so you live on a planet of your imagination.

On the planet I live on (e.g. earth), women divorce men for a wide variety reasons that have nothing to do with getting physically beaten or cheated on. In fact, often they are the ones doing the cheating. But here's the reasons they give:

"I hurt all the time because I feel alone and abandoned."
"My husband is no longer my friend."
"The only time he pays attention to me is when he wants sex."
"He is never there for me when I need him the most."
"When he hurts my feelings he doesn't apologize."
"He lives his life as if we weren't married; he rarely considers me."
"We're like ships passing in the night, he goes his way and I go mine." "My husband has become a stranger to me, I don't even know who he is anymore."
"He doesn't show any interest in me or what I do."

They don't divorce because 1 out of every 2 men is a physically abusive beast who roams the house kicking the snot of them like Bruce Lee taking on a Chinese triad. They don't divorce because 1 out of every 2 men is a sexual predator who can't stop cheating on them. Those are feminist lies.

These women divorce because they are extremely frustrated people who blame their husbands for their frustrations. When you talk to the husbands, and you should try it sometime, they have a very different explanation. They feel that the expectations of women in general, and their wives in particular, have grown completely out of reach.

These men, who feel that they've made a gigantic effort to be caring and sensitive to their wives, get no credit whatsoever for their sizeable contribution to the family. They feel under enormous pressure to improve their financial support, improve the way they raise their children, and improve the way they treat their wives. Many men I see are emotionally exhausted and feel that for all their effort, they get nothing but criticism.

But it's not enough, so a no fault divorce gets filed and usually by the woman. The number one reason why men give for not filing divorce is because they don't want to lose their kids.

From my experience with women who are getting divorced, it is usually because of either physical abuse, or adultery on the part of the man. You would have to be pretty desperate to get a divorced and live in poverty, which is what happens to most women who get divorced.

In Canada:

"Women and other marginalized groups disproportionately experience povertyWomen form the majority (about 53%) of people living in poverty in Canada. About 12% of all Canadian women, and 11% of Canadian men live in poverty.1 Further, certain groups of women are dispropor- tionately affected by poverty.
• Single mothers: 51.6% of lone parent families headed by women live in poverty
• 41.5% of single, widowed or divorced women over 65 live in poverty
• 35% of women on their own under 65 live in poverty
• 44% of Aboriginal women living off reserve, and 47% of Aboriginal women living on-reserve live in poverty. The average annual income for Aboriginal women is $13,300, compared with $18,200 for Aboriginal men and $19,350 for non-Aboriginal women.
• New immigrant women between 25-44 years old who have a university degree and work full-time earn $14,000 less than Canadian-born women. 2"

"Women in poverty experience particular gender-based harms
Women living in poverty are especially vulnerable to domestic violence because their poverty makes it difficult for them to escape male violence at home. Women whose housing or financial situation is precarious may also end up being sexually exploited in the sex trade."

http://www.leaf.ca/education/documents/EdHO_Women_Poverty.pdf

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals: About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals | Society | The Observer

http://www.parity-uk.org/RSMDVConfPresentation-version3A.pdf


Equal Opportunity Cheating: Women and Men Cheat at Same Rate: a new study finds that women cheat at about the same rate as men, though often for different reasons.

Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News

 

[presidente]

I don't know of any solid research for it, but some have guessed that rates for adultery are as high as 60%. Adultery is extremely common, so a lot of 'no fault' divorces may be over adultery. But it is also quite common for women to commit adultery, as well.

To say that women do not divorce when they have a loving caring man at home, and only divorce over abuse and adultery is not accurate. To say that women only divorce men because they feel unsatisfied in the marriage is also wrong. There are all kinds of people out there. And there are plenty of women who divorce with no reasonable grounds at all. There are women who divorce because they are tired of marriage and have unrealistic expectations. There are women who divorce their husbands after putting up with violence and adultery. There are women who commit adultery, file for divorce, and then collect a check when it is all over. There are men who divorce their wives because they are bored with marriage and seek freedom, and there are men who divorce their wives because they are violent, or adulterous.

There is not only one reason why divorce happens. It is not the case that all men are good and all women are evil. And it is not the case that all women are good and all men are evil.

As far as the men's rights movement is concerned, in a lot of jurisdiction, a man who enters a family court has the deck stacked against him. I think there is a legitimate role for a movement like this to play in society.

My first contact with the men's rights movement was when I was in an MBA program and the construction site across the street was shut down because some men's rights protestors had dressed up like superheroes and camped out on a crane for a short while. They were talked down somehow.

I saw a Rowan Atkinson spoof of Spiderman where Spiderplant man and Batman were fighting on a bridge. A newsreporter appeared at the scene, stating that fathers for justice had organized a protest. I think men's rights activists are known for this sort of thing over there. I'd never heard of a protest over such things in the US.

 

[Anna20fAustralia]

Not quite. In the sciences, theory is a fact (like gravity) because it is an hypothesis supported by evidence. The use of the word 'theory' in the sciences is used in this sense, and not in the everyday sense, meaning 'just a guess, or a possibility.'

 

[presidente]

Not quite. In the sciences, theory is a fact (like gravity) because it is an hypothesis supported by evidence. The use of the word 'theory' in the sciences is used in this sense, and not in the everyday sense, meaning 'just a guess, or a possibility.'

Certainly not in some of the social sciences I have studied. And many academics stay away from words like 'fact' and 'proved' and 'proven.' You don't 'prove' your hypothesis. The data supports the hypothesis. Not everyone may agree that a theory is true, either. And how is it possible to prove any theory at all in sociology? Especially, in those papers that don't even use any statistics. Just a bunch of academic 'bla bla bla.' Some of the sociology papers are actually good and have useful theory that can be applied and serve as a basis for hypotheses in other fields that can be tested.

The central limit theorem in statistics is a theorem after all. And we are looking at likelihoods, not absolutes when we look at data.

The natural sciences are another ball of wax, but they treat certain things as axiomatic.

And there are those who say that grand theories are impossible to prove.

 

[biscuit]

You are out of touch with the reality of why so many women get divorced, presidente! They don't get divorced to stick it to some man, whom they have loved, served, and born his children.

They get divorced because the man has committed adultery or because of abuse.

And I guess these women are 'purely innocent' ??? Have you checked the latest stats on infidelity by married women? The last time I checked on DV stats issued by the CDC, 57% of DV was provoked by women. Many men are cheated on and abused by women but many will never talk about it or report it because of cultural differences. Many of these women (and men) are "reaping what they sowed."

 

[biscuit]

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals: About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals | Society | The Observer

http://www.parity-uk.org/RSMDVConfPresentation-version3A.pdf


Equal Opportunity Cheating: Women and Men Cheat at Same Rate: a new study finds that women cheat at about the same rate as men, though often for different reasons.

Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News

Most women are well aware of the stats regarding their violence against men and the infidelity rate. The majority of them just prefer to keep the "blinders" on and support the feminist movement. The good news is the younger generations of men are not falling for the traps of marriage like their fathers & grandfathers. Millions of women are frustrated and bitter because they can't find men to marry them and date them. Well, I guess the feminist movement has a lot to do with it.

 

[Rachel20]

Well, there are provisions provided by law such as prenuptial agreements that protect interests of both parties in the turn of such events.
There are no excuses for any man avoiding "traps of marriage" to seek casual sex or companionship somewhere else.

There's no loss for anyone if a man doesn't marry. There are many women who do not marry.

To blame feminist movements wholly for this is not very objective.


Also, though not shown statistically, I am sure most women prefer brave, bold, courageous men and not cowards who are afraid to commit.


Just some thoughts.



PS- Oh and I absolutely support equal rights for men. Go boy power!

 

[biscuit]

Well, there are provisions provided by law such as prenuptial agreements that protect interests of both parties in the turn of such events.
There are no excuses for any man avoiding "traps of marriage" to seek casual sex or companionship somewhere else.

There's no loss for anyone if a man doesn't marry. There are many women who do not marry.

To blame feminist movements wholly for this is not very objective.


Also, though not shown statistically, I am sure most women prefer brave, bold, courageous men and not cowards who are afraid to commit.


Just some thoughts.



PS- Oh and I absolutely support equal rights for men. Go boy power!

While pre-nup helps it isn't foolproof because many women are attacking it for adjustments that suit them. As far as feminist movement, several generations of women will blame them for the turmoil relating to the battle of the sexes. The Women Movement started around 1966 and picked up full steam in the early 1970's. I was 13 when the WM started so I would know more about it than most women on CC. And I am a Sociology /History major with a solid & extensive background in the various movements.

 

[secularhermit]

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals: About two in five of all victims of domestic violence are men, contradicting the widespread impression that it is almost always women who are left battered and bruised, a new report claims.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals | Society | The Observer

http://www.parity-uk.org/RSMDVConfPresentation-version3A.pdf


Equal Opportunity Cheating: Women and Men Cheat at Same Rate: a new study finds that women cheat at about the same rate as men, though often for different reasons.

Women Cheating About As Often As Men, Says Study - ABC News

I used to be a cheater (up to the time I felt its pain: Several ones).

Regarding violence, I used to be unkind and strong voiced and recently I was called "rude" for not allowing, myself, to be ruled by my ex-GF´s daughter (I´m glad that ended up).

When I was divorcing, the mother of my children tried to hit me and, to stop it in the middle of the street, I used my leg to "help" her fall, since she was hitting me (and I only gave her one chance).

We men are afraid of the "jokes" and ridicule, to the point I learned to laugh at myself that, knowing people here aer like that (love to make "fun" at the cost of others) I have told, several times, when telling people my surname: "I´m TORO, because of the horns" (Toro is bull and, all bulls i have seen have their horns).

That joke I often made, served me to avoid my surname misspelled; since many people used to write it down on my records wrongly: Antonio TORRES, and mine is Antonio Toro. So they have laughed at it, because the world we´ve lived know what adultery is, either both way (though I only did it once, while I was married during 13 years and, emotionally, I have sinned more than once).

 

[secularhermit]

While pre-nup helps it isn't foolproof because many women are attacking it for adjustments that suit them. As far as feminist movement, several generations of women will blame them for the turmoil relating to the battle of the sexes. The Women Movement started around 1966 and picked up full steam in the early 1970's. I was 13 when the WM started so I would know more about it than most women on CC. And I am a Sociology /History major with a solid & extensive background in the various movements.

Hi, Biscuit!

I never read about the SCUM manifiesto. I read it last night and felt sad about the life of the author (Valerie S.) )According to my bad taste, she was beautiful but, I saw only two pictures and, her ill-biased opinions, blamed ALL men as equals (I doubt it, though she was abused and awfully hurt).

Do you know if she got children or any sort of family?

 

[secularhermit]

Most women are well aware of the stats regarding their violence against men and the infidelity rate. The majority of them just prefer to keep the "blinders" on and support the feminist movement. The good news is the younger generations of men are not falling for the traps of marriage like their fathers & grandfathers. Millions of women are frustrated and bitter because they can't find men to marry them and date them. Well, I guess the feminist movement has a lot to do with it.

Last night, when I was reading, my mother´s neibour´s daughter was telling her mother she was unwilling to be married. She is not older than 17-20 and she also dislike the idea of marriage. Her mother and someone I don´t know, were insisting she had to be married, the girl talked back arguing with her reasons... Her mother verbally expressed marriaged as THE PRICE A MAN HAD TO PAY TO TOUCH HER (she used other words) so I understood marriage is not seem the Christian way (and I most confess I saw it THE WRONG secular way too, for decades).

Mariage is not a business, but I have heard another girl this: "If any wants to marry me, he has to buy me a house and a car...". (I asked "why the car?". She said: "...for the children...") She said it literally, in front of her mom, so it´s clear any might put a price for that CONTRACT...

I never asked that teenager: "Don´t you know kids needs a driver´s licence?" Because I already knew she was serious at her sayings.