Anyone into music mixing?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
A

Abing

Guest
#1
Like the thread title, is anyone here into music mixing? I'm just starting to learn this and I was hoping to meet people who actually know how to do this :p I have questions like when should I change the note velocity and stuff like that; what's a good audio mixing software? I was looking into getting logic pro x.

Anyone?
 
A

Abing

Guest
#2
Also, how is music mixing different from music arrangement? I may have been confusing the two :S
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#3
Hello,

I've studied mixing. I'm a musician (guitarist), and composer (mostly orchestral right now), and studied at Berklee College of Music. I have a Specialist Certificate in Composing For Film and TV.

Logic is a good choice; it was written mainly for the Mac computer. I've never tried it on a PC. I use Pro Tools on a PC.

When speaking of MIDI CC parameters like Velocity, I assume you're wanting to do MIDI sample libraries mainly? Using something like a brass instrument sample as an example, Velocity controls the timber of the instrument, from soft to loud. So it's not just another volume control, but a CC control that can change the sound color of a MIDI instrument sample. Some library samples aren't designed to use it though, like a sustained instrument. Velocity will have no effect on that sustained instrument except increasing its volume. It won't create a sound color change like it would with a woodwind or brass instrument sample.

The main 3 MIDI CC parameters I use are Modulation, Velocity, and Expression. CC Expression is another volume control, within the track's sample performance. It is independent of MIDI Volume. That gives you a way to adjust an individual MIDI instrument within a larger MIDI mockup mix, while keeping the overall MIDI CC Volume of all the tracks the same.
 
A

Abing

Guest
#4
Oh wow! Yes I'm totally noob to all these things. I just started reading the basics of mixing. Never knew velocity does so much more than just increase the volume. Lol. MIDI sample libraries? *_* I think that's what I'm talking about, not sure exactly. I do write midi files. As I was editing each note, that's when I started wondering about what velocity does. I have a mac so Logic is a good choice? My sister has Pro Tools on a mac (she uses it for 3D animation). I'll check it out and see if I can understand it, from the screenshots, it looks overwhelming to use lol.

Berklee, *jaw drops* that's my dream school lol. I'm mostly saving right now so I can get to study there. I would, most likely, be taking composition.

Oh do you have sites to suggest where to learn basics of mixing?

I just started playing around with it and actually made a few recordings (working on a remastered mix right now). I main keys (using a midi controller) and just software instruments.

Any basic tips, or must-know before I venture into this world of mixing? I'd appreciate it a lot. Thank you.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#5
Oh do you have sites to suggest where to learn basics of mixing?

I just started playing around with it and actually made a few recordings (working on a remastered mix right now). I main keys (using a midi controller) and just software instruments.

Any basic tips, or must-know before I venture into this world of mixing? I'd appreciate it a lot. Thank you.
You've got a Mac, and you do MIDI, so Logic would be a good choice, it's one of the best DAW's for MIDI. For PC, Cubase is probably the best for MIDI.

But the best professional mixing platform still is Pro Tools. It's the industry standard in that area, but it's MIDI features are not as good as the other two. You can still do MIDI on Pro Tools, with all the different DAWs really, but the graphics representations, assigning MIDI IN/OUT is easier on certain DAW's (like Logic and Cubase). Each DAW has its own learning curve, but once you learn one of them real well, it's easier figure out the others. They all pretty much cover the same features.

MixCoach.com is a very good website to seriously learn mixing. They charge a monthly fee, but it's not a whole lot that I remember. Kevin Ward is a producer/mixer near Nashville and he has won two Gospel Dove awards (Gospel music's equivalent to the Grammy). He has also recorded Dolly Parton and Willie Nelson in his career. Kevin uses Pro Tools with his video teaching examples.

What he does if you sign up, is once a month, he gives all the online student members the 24 bit raw recorded tracks of a professional artist that he recorded/mixed/produced, and then he does a one hour video lesson of how he went about mixing it. Then you mix it, and turn your mix in to him, and he or one of his associates (which are pro mixers also) grades it with a personal video feedback. The only drawback is you have to pay a small fee to get his personal feedback of your mix.

I studied with Kevin for about a year and half. At the time I only had headphones (a pro pair).

DropBox songs I mixed:

God Works by Doug Anderson
https://db.tt/ZSmwdO7z

This Is My Day by a band of one of the MixCoach members
https://db.tt/Rfh4gPJt

Stars Would Fall (cover by Wayne Haun)
https://db.tt/TfDqFMbD

All those were monthly MixCoach lessons we mixed that the artists and Kevin Ward who produced them shared with the members.

Here's another mix I did at MixCoach, another cover sung by Wayne Haun that was on his Jazz album (which went to no.3 on the Jazz charts). This one had a lot brass parts to mix in a separate mix first, which Kevin showed us how to do it. Then the brass section was imported into another Pro Tools session where the other parts were:

https://soundcloud.com/waveheavy/letsfallinlove-cover-by-wayne


Another good website is Fab Dupont's puremix.net website. Lot of free lessons there.
 
Last edited:
A

Abing

Guest
#6
Alright, I'll check these out when I get out of work. Thanks a lot! **posting while at work lol**

Oh and quick question, when recording, is there like a standard input gain? Or is it safe to stick with 0?
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#7
I just started playing around with it and actually made a few recordings (working on a remastered mix right now). I main keys (using a midi controller) and just software instruments.

Any basic tips, or must-know before I venture into this world of mixing? I'd appreciate it a lot. Thank you.
Another thing about MixCoach, you'll cover styles like Rock, Pop, Folk, Gospel, Electronic Dance (not as much), Country, Bluegrass, Jazz and Big Band. I think Kevin even covered an A Capella tune. So it's a good way to learn mixing overall, enough to where you could probably setup a project studio for mixing In-The-Box (just on computer) and earn something on the side with amateur artists and demos. As far as I know, there's not another online source for the money that gives real world mixing skills from a well known producer who is in the business. Pro mixing skills are usually learned inside a real studio hands on most of the time. On top of that, Kevin is a Christian, so he produces Christian artists around Nashville too.

The two most important things in mixing, except your ears and using a style reference, are your studio setup and your gear.

1. Room Treatment:

It's very important to have a treated room. Every room either builds up or reduces certain frequencies in the audio spectrum. Which frequencies depends on the room shape and size. What happens is that if a room reduces let's say around 100Hz, which is the frequency of bass guitars, you'll naturally hear less bass when mixing, so you will boost that frequency area per your hearing. But when you play your mix on other equipment in a different location, like your car, you will hear that 100Hz boosted too much! Frequencies in the room that get reduced the opposite will occur, you'll be subtracting from that 100Hz area, mix checks elsewhere will sound light in that bass area. Treating the room helps prevent that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp56A6TcL1E

You can get by with building your own sound absorbers using Roxul mineral wool or Dow Corning insulation board, some 1x4 boards, and fabric (see YouTube). Or you can order some (expensive). But the idea is you want absorbers at the first reflection points in the room, and bass traps in every corner (from floor to ceiling is most ideal). And then bass traps on the rear wall.

To find first reflection points, sit in your mix position while someone moves a mirror around the walls (front, sides, and back walls, and ceiling). With your monitors setup, wherever you can see your speakers in that mirror, that's a first reflection point and will need an absorber.

Mix position should be in 1/3 part of room off of front wall. If your ceiling is not soundproofed you'll need a couple absorbers above the mix position also, like a cloud. Ideally, the room should be rectangular, not square. Floor and ceiling should be of different materials, i.e., like a smooth reflective ceiling and carpet on the floor.

The above recommendations are the ideal. You can do less at the start.

2. Gear:

You can learn to mix on pro headphones, and then compare your mixes on other systems, and in your car, and by that learn the strong and weak points on using that pair of 'cans' (nickname for headphones). I use a pair of Beredynamics.

If you're going to be doing a lot of EDM (electronic dance music) or Pop with a lot of synths and beats, etc., you'll need monitors that will reproduce the low end. Most near field monitors will start to cut off the bass around 40Hz and below. So that needs to be kept in mind, but you can still use them if you do mix checks listening on other sound systems, and then learn those monitor's strengths and weaknesses.

Most near field monitors today are amplified, so you don't need a separate amp to power them. For passive monitors you will need a separate amp, a clean one, not a cheap one from Radio Shack.

Sound Card: lot of choices. Seems like outboard audio interfaces are going the way of USB 3.0. So there's plenty of good quality ones out there that are pretty cheap. 24 bit/44.1Hz is the studio standard quality for recording and mixing. Some record and mix at higher rates, mostly in the pro world. If you're serious, don't skimp on the audio interface quality. Audio interfaces included with turn-key computers are still not good enough for professional mixing. They're getting better, but they're still not quite there yet.

An ideal setup would be like an Apogee, Lynx, or Pro Tools HDX, or RME. The RME stuff is very... stable, but sort of on the bottom of the pro market. That with a good DAW (Logic, Cubase, Pro Tools, SONAR, Digital Performer are top of the line DAWs), a fast computer with a quad-core chip, and a lot of RAM (16 to 64Gb), with SSD type drives, and a couple of outboards like an analog EQ and an analog compressor, and your beginning in the professional mixer market.

Hope that helps. Feel free to ask me anything else you need to know.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#8
Alright, I'll check these out when I get out of work. Thanks a lot! **posting while at work lol**

Oh and quick question, when recording, is there like a standard input gain? Or is it safe to stick with 0?
Yes, there is a standard. On your digital Peak meter in your DAW, ideal recording input is -18dbFS (FS means full scale). That is equal to analog 0dB in voltage. That is actually the setting most software plugin manufacturers shoot for also, as being the ideal spot for applying a plugin effect on audio. Some differ though.

In digital, you do not want to ever... peak over 0.0dBFS on the meter (called 'overs'). You will always get digital distortion if you do. It's not at all like analog tape, where you drive the signal hot into tape and it gives a nice warm compression.

Here's a quick mix setup to get you started:

1. Static mix first: no effects, no EQ, no compressors. Do a rough mix with panning and volume levels only. Get the best sound you can in the mix.

2. Go to MONO monitoring, not stereo (very important).
EQ and Compressors: do EQ first, wide Q (bandwidth) for boost, narrow for cuts. Try an average of 3.0dB just to hear the change at first with EQ. You EQ the first track, cut out bad frequency areas. Then you listen to the next track ALONG with the previous track, and then EQ that second track until it fits with the first one. Subtractive EQ always first. Then continue the mix with the next tracks in the same manner, adding one at a time, NO SOLO listening. Idea is to get all the tracks fit together.

Compress only tracks that need it. The old mix adage is "compress often, but only a little". That means multiple compressors on a track if needed, compressing each only a little, instead of using a single compressor hitting it a lot. It's common to have compressor on a track, and then another on a group buss of like instruments, and then a final compressor on the Master bus.

3. Now goto STEREO monitoring and add effects, like reverb, delay, etc.

4. Automation: do last.
 
A

Abing

Guest
#9
You've got a Mac, and you do MIDI, so Logic would be a good choice, it's one of the best DAW's for MIDI. For PC, Cubase is probably the best for MIDI.
Yes, I use MIDI. I haven't tried recording a live instrument. I'm getting my workstation keyboard by December, it's a Korg Kross 88. And I would be doing more composing/arranging than mixing, so I was going with Logic.

DropBox songs I mixed:

God Works by Doug Anderson
https://db.tt/ZSmwdO7z

This Is My Day by a band of one of the MixCoach members
https://db.tt/Rfh4gPJt

Stars Would Fall (cover by Wayne Haun)
https://db.tt/TfDqFMbD
I listened to these 3. I'll have to work on my balance. I'm mixing on headphones. I'll share about it on my next post.

Here's another mix I did at MixCoach, another cover sung by Wayne Haun that was on his Jazz album (which went to no.3 on the Jazz charts). This one had a lot brass parts to mix in a separate mix first, which Kevin showed us how to do it. Then the brass section was imported into another Pro Tools session where the other parts were:

https://soundcloud.com/waveheavy/let...cover-by-wayne
How do you minimise the 'S' sound? My last mix sounded so bad there was too much 'S'.
 
A

Abing

Guest
#10
Another thing about MixCoach, you'll cover styles like Rock, Pop, Folk, Gospel, Electronic Dance (not as much), Country, Bluegrass, Jazz and Big Band. I think Kevin even covered an A Capella tune. So it's a good way to learn mixing overall, enough to where you could probably setup a project studio for mixing In-The-Box (just on computer) and earn something on the side with amateur artists and demos. As far as I know, there's not another online source for the money that gives real world mixing skills from a well known producer who is in the business. Pro mixing skills are usually learned inside a real studio hands on most of the time. On top of that, Kevin is a Christian, so he produces Christian artists around Nashville too.
Oh this is so cool. Nashville is like where all Christian music came from lol. Thanks. Yes, I'll look into getting some of these lessons. I'm not planning on going deep into mixing, as a profession, but enough to mix in-the-box for my own songs.

1. Room Treatment:
Question: Is room treatment still necessary even if I mix on headphones? Also, I use Sony MDR-7506 to monitor. I wasn't sure what to get, this was suggested by my sister's teacher in sound effects lol. Is the quality good enough?

2. Gear:

Most near field monitors today are amplified, so you don't need a separate amp to power them. For passive monitors you will need a separate amp, a clean one, not a cheap one from Radio Shack.
What's a near field monitor and passive monitors? Do I need to have both? I don't know which monitors to get. Any affordable suggestions? I was thinking of just going with normal speakers and a sub woofer lol.

Sound Card: lot of choices. Seems like outboard audio interfaces are going the way of USB 3.0. So there's plenty of good quality ones out there that are pretty cheap. 24 bit/44.1Hz is the studio standard quality for recording and mixing. Some record and mix at higher rates, mostly in the pro world. If you're serious, don't skimp on the audio interface quality. Audio interfaces included with turn-key computers are still not good enough for professional mixing. They're getting better, but they're still not quite there yet.
Okay, I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlet Solo USB audio interface. It was also just suggested to me, wasn't sure what the pros and cons are. I'm not even sure what the 48V switch is for.




Hope that helps. Feel free to ask me anything else you need to know.
This is very very very helpful and I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my noob questions.
 
A

Abing

Guest
#11
Yes, there is a standard. On your digital Peak meter in your DAW, ideal recording input is -18dbFS (FS means full scale). That is equal to analog 0dB in voltage. That is actually the setting most software plugin manufacturers shoot for also, as being the ideal spot for applying a plugin effect on audio. Some differ though.

In digital, you do not want to ever... peak over 0.0dBFS on the meter (called 'overs'). You will always get digital distortion if you do. It's not at all like analog tape, where you drive the signal hot into tape and it gives a nice warm compression.


Okay, I will remember this.

2. Go to MONO monitoring, not stereo (very important).
This is very interesting. I always monitored Stereo. I'm going through my current project applying these steps you provided.


4. Automation: do last.
What is automation for?
 
A

Abing

Guest
#12
2. Go to MONO monitoring, not stereo (very important).
By any chance, would you know how to do this on Garageband? (I can only change input to mono or stereo but I can't find where to change the monitoring to MONO).
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#13
How do you minimise the 'S' sound? My last mix sounded so bad there was too much 'S'.
What kind of arranging/composing are you planning to do?

The 'ess' sound is control with a DeEsser plugin. You also control things like the crispy high end in mastering, and on cymbals.

You might have one included with your DAW, most do. I recommend getting a minimum group of Waves plugins that your DAW may not have, just for starters. Otherwise, I'd suggest learning to use the plugins that came with your DAW for starting out.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#14
Oh this is so cool. Nashville is like where all Christian music came from lol. Thanks. Yes, I'll look into getting some of these lessons. I'm not planning on going deep into mixing, as a profession, but enough to mix in-the-box for my own songs.



Question: Is room treatment still necessary even if I mix on headphones? Also, I use Sony MDR-7506 to monitor. I wasn't sure what to get, this was suggested by my sister's teacher in sound effects lol. Is the quality good enough?



What's a near field monitor and passive monitors? Do I need to have both? I don't know which monitors to get. Any affordable suggestions? I was thinking of just going with normal speakers and a sub woofer lol.



Okay, I recently bought a Focusrite Scarlet Solo USB audio interface. It was also just suggested to me, wasn't sure what the pros and cons are. I'm not even sure what the 48V switch is for.






This is very very very helpful and I really appreciate it. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my noob questions.
Yeah, the Sony MDR's are fine. If you're not going to use monitors, then you'll have to really learn your headphones, and compare your mix with a lot of other sources.

One of the bad things about using 'cans' is setting reverb amount. With 'cans' it's impossible to tell exactly how much verb you're putting on. It's because you're not getting the same distance of sound in a room. This is why you eventually want to get some monitors to verify with, and just use 'cans' to check for problems like artifacts (clicks, pops, etc.) and phase issues. Pro mixers do mix using 'cans' too outside the studio, but they always verify later using monitors.

Our ears get tired too. I got up this morning and listened to the bass in my Stars Would Fall mix, since I messed with the bass last night. It's too bass heavy now.

The Focusrite is fine. The 48V switch is for recording using two mics that require power. They call it phantom power.

The difference between 'active' amplified near-fields and passive near-fields is that passive monitors are like the old common home stereo speakers powered by a separate stereo amp/receiver and speaker wire. They have to have a power amp driving them. But 'active' monitors each have a small amp inside the monitor itself, usually coming in monitor matched pairs, and you calibrate their volume levels individually, using a sound meter that you can get at Radio Shack (85dB is preferred max volume at C weighting for both measured at your mix position using a 1kHz tone, like a Sine wave tone).

VERY IMPORTANT:
Standard hearing safety says we can handle 85dB for 8 hrs. without suffering any permanent hearing damage. Go over 85dB and the number of hours our ears can handle goes down. So even with using 'cans', you want to use a comfortable volume level, not loud.

Then there's the thing called the Fletcher-Munson curve that's very important to know about. It's data reveals our hearing can fool us during mixing with increases in volume. When applying a plugin effect, and it boosts the volume of the track you're working on, it will almost always sound better to our ears with a volume boost, so it can fool our ears as to what the applied effect actually did. So in proper mixing, you level-match the level of the track before the effect was applied with the level after it is applied. That's what the A/B switch on a plugin is for, so you can switch back and forth and hear what changes the effect made. Plugins also have a final volume output control to use for matching level.

Even if you're not planning on mixing professionally, these are still important matters that can help in getting a good sounding mix.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#15
When you do decided on monitors, I recommend going to your nearest Guitar Center store, in the recording section. They'll have various sets of monitors hooked up to listen to. Bring a CD that you're used to listening to so you can make comparisons.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#16
MONO monitoring:
The reason you want to get into the habit of doing this when you apply EQ and compression, is that mono collapses the stereo field, placing the sound field of all the instruments in alignment, so their balance between one another is actually easier to distinguish.

The other reason to use mono is phase issues. For example, if a snare and tom are 'out of phase' with each other, you'll hear a drop out of the sound on one or both of them. It will cause a volume decrease. It has to do with a thing called 'phase cancellation' in electronics. If you create an accurate copy of a track, and play the original and the copy at the same time, you'll hear an increase in magnitude, volume in the case of the DAW. But if you swap the phase on one of those tracks, it will cancel out both of them, you won't hear anything. That problem shows up listening in mono immediately.

So checking the tracks for phase issues is one of the first things you do when mixing. To correct it you have to find which tracks are causing it, and going to mono will reveal it. Then you either apply a phase plugin and change it 180 degrees, or you can use your DAW's nudge feature to slip the track one direction or the other until it goes away (or the sound comes back) while listening in mono.

With live recorded material, that is when phase issues show up the most. With MIDI samples, it won't be much of a problem, since the sample library manufacturers usually handle that when recording the samples. But it can still happen when using different sample libraries together.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#17
Automation:
Each track has an automation feature, which basically you can either select in real time during playback, and make changes in the tracks volume, or even assign a plugin parameter and adjust it on a track in real time, during playback. When playback is done, it will save your adjustment and you'll see a line across the wave of the track.

This is used to do fine balance adjustments between the tracks in final. Producers also use it to highlight certain instruments during a song, like bringing up the guitars during the bridge of the song, and then back down before the final verse, etc. A lot of times they automate everything up for a chorus part or bridge and keep it there until the song ends. For Jazz and Classical it is rarely used. So doing that is kind of style dependent. And it's done for 'creative' reasons too.

Let's say you've got just one small section of song where the snare is buried because everything else increases in dynamic. You can use automation to boost the snare just at that song section, and then bring it back down later where it needs to be a little less. Or you could automate a compressor on the snare track to hit harder at that point in the song. Thus automation is just another mixing tool to use without losing your original fader levels, etc. In EDM music, producers will apply an EQ effect on a synth using automation during the song, changing its dynamic which gives a type movement to the song, or they will even use automation to pan it side to side.
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#18
By any chance, would you know how to do this on Garageband? (I can only change input to mono or stereo but I can't find where to change the monitoring to MONO).
You should have a plugin included that will reduce the stereo field to mono. Look at your plugins to see if you have something widens the stereo, then look into that one. It should allow you to reduce the stereo field to mono also.
 
A

Abing

Guest
#19
What kind of arranging/composing are you planning to do?
I'm starting to write Christian songs, I made a couple covers just to test my equipments. You can check them out here:

https://soundcloud.com/abigailzeke

Standard hearing safety says we can handle 85dB for 8 hrs. without suffering any permanent hearing damage. Go over 85dB and the number of hours our ears can handle goes down. So even with using 'cans', you want to use a comfortable volume level, not loud.
Okay. This is news lol. I'm guilty of abusing my ears. But this is good info. Thanks.

Automation:
Ahh, I've done automation in Garageband, didn't even know that's what its called. Lol. So, I started using Logic Pro X today, a lot of things to learn (currently reading logic pro x for dummies). I'm going to apply the tips you gave me. Thank you so very much!!
 

DP

Banned
Sep 27, 2015
3,325
41
0
#20
I'm starting to write Christian songs, I made a couple covers just to test my equipments. You can check them out here:

https://soundcloud.com/abigailzeke



Okay. This is news lol. I'm guilty of abusing my ears. But this is good info. Thanks.



Ahh, I've done automation in Garageband, didn't even know that's what its called. Lol. So, I started using Logic Pro X today, a lot of things to learn (currently reading logic pro x for dummies). I'm going to apply the tips you gave me. Thank you so very much!!
Your welcome!

I checked out your songs. I think they are very... good. I would suggest a different key for her voice on 'You Never Know'. It's a bit high for her range.

In Logic, there should be some way you can use an automation line to edit the vocal peaks and lows. This is commonly done to balance out the power spurts and weak points in a vocal performance. It's usually done prior to compression.

To learn your plugins, I recommend you apply the effect to the max in experimenting with them, just so you know what too much sounds like as an ear reference, then back it off. This is how reverb is usually applied in a majority of styles (except heavy reverb like in EDM music). You apply enough that you begin to obviously hear it, then back it off .5 to 1 dB.

You may eventually want to get some kind of pitch correction software, especially if you plan to do a lot of vocal tunes. The industry standard is AutoTune. Melodyne is more expensive, but does more. It is very acceptable to correct a sometimes off pitch vocal performance.