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Thread: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

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    Question Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    I recently wrote an article about Christian music, highlighting the band Skillet - who has been around a long time - and to me, doesn't represent true Christianity in the least. I listen to Christian radio and hear a lot of catchy music with wrong messages that I just could not take it any longer. I think this is a good point of discussion for all believers. To me, the music that's out there also represents the condition of our church today. What are your thoughts?

    Here is the article:
    The Falling Away of Christian Music : Christian Music Theology - Bad to Worse?
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    I think if you're that focused on one out of hundreds of thousands of bands and artists you have too much time on your hands. These sort of music bashing 'conversations' are dead horse topics reeking of a religious attitude.
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly View Post
    I think if you're that focused on one out of hundreds of thousands of bands and artists you have too much time on your hands. These sort of music bashing 'conversations' are dead horse topics reeking of a religious attitude.

    Did you read the article or just the title? With all due respect, this is not a reasonable answer to the question.

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugly View Post
    I think if you're that focused on one out of hundreds of thousands of bands
    Uh it's not like he picked some random youth praise team, there aren't even hundreds of thousands of bands on Christian radio. Maybe not even 100. It's Skillet, and their current lyrics are lazy at best. The chorus of Feel Invincible is even made up of other artist's lyrics. No context, just lines from top 40 songs jumbled together. It's crap.

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehardertruths View Post
    I recently wrote an article about Christian music, highlighting the band Skillet - who has been around a long time - and to me, doesn't represent true Christianity in the least. I listen to Christian radio and hear a lot of catchy music with wrong messages that I just could not take it any longer. I think this is a good point of discussion for all believers. To me, the music that's out there also represents the condition of our church today. What are your thoughts?

    Here is the article:
    The Falling Away of Christian Music : Christian Music Theology - Bad to Worse?
    First of all, it is against the rules of Christian Chat to self-advertise an article or blog. As for Skillet I have listened to them and I don't understand your beef with them and their music. I listen to a lot of Christian music and usually do not find anything fishy with the lyrics or what is being said. That problem can usually happen when one misinterprets what they are saying or implies they are saying something a certain way when they are not saying that in a certain way. Sometimes people even forget who the audience that is being targeted by the musical piece is supposed to be and what perspective the song is from. I also don't just listen to Christian contemporary music, I also listen to Christian rap. I have found a lot that is good for the soul and even has God's word in the lyrics as well. God bless.
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Hmm... I'm reminded of a song I found when I was looking for a Christmas song to sing. It's called "Angels cried." It's a soulful Christmas song about how when Jesus was born the angels cried because they knew what His mission was... and it was completely wrong. There is mention in the Bible about some activity in the angelic ranks when Jesus was born, but nothing about them crying.

    There are many christian songs that are "puff pieces," made just for the sake of making another track to sell another CD to make more money. In fact I have found a good 70% of christian music - in all genres, not just CCM - is just generated to make money. And sometimes they put things in their songs because it sounds good, but it doesn't quite match what the Bible says.

    You're not going to change it though, and you're certainly not going to change anybody's opinion of a genre of christian music for good or ill. Those who like CCM, for example, will keep liking it no matter what you posted on a blogspot page. Likewise those who hate rap will find examples of christian rap that they can use to justify their claim that all christian rap is worthless, and they don't need any help in hating it.

    There's still a good 30% of christian music - in all genres - that is worth finding though. The best thing to do is eat the meat and spit out the bones. Find the music that is truly anointed and build your own music library according to what you prefer. Yeah the puff pieces will still be churned out and yeah they will get some theology wrong, but you're not going to stop either the makers or listeners of such puff pieces.

    If you want to try, good luck. I'm going to turn on some Shachah and rock out. Peace out dude.
    "Do you sing at church?"
    "Yes I sing at church. And I sing at work. And I sing at home... and in the car... at the supermarket... at Wal-Mart..."

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Please translate Shachah.

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by bingbing View Post
    Please translate Shachah.
    *** it means worship & ( nice photo album)
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Shachah:

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    "Do you sing at church?"
    "Yes I sing at church. And I sing at work. And I sing at home... and in the car... at the supermarket... at Wal-Mart..."

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    This video is not available.

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Some videos are not available in some countries. Youtube has to avoid all kinds of copyright issues any way it can I guess. :-/

    Try going to youtube and looking for "Shachah Miracle."
    willfollowsGod and bingbing like this.
    "Do you sing at church?"
    "Yes I sing at church. And I sing at work. And I sing at home... and in the car... at the supermarket... at Wal-Mart..."

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Melody of Angels Cried is so nice.

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehardertruths View Post
    I recently wrote an article about Christian music, highlighting the band Skillet - who has been around a long time - and to me, doesn't represent true Christianity in the least. I listen to Christian radio and hear a lot of catchy music with wrong messages that I just could not take it any longer. I think this is a good point of discussion for all believers. To me, the music that's out there also represents the condition of our church today. What are your thoughts?

    Here is the article:
    The Falling Away of Christian Music : Christian Music Theology - Bad to Worse?
    It's a mixture, just like the mixture of theology in the church.

    I think the music of Vertical Church Band, Rend Collective, and Citizens and Saints surpasses the music of the 80's and 90's personally. I am a big Rich Mullins fan but to be honest, the aforementioned bands surpasses his music in terms of depth of spirituality and lyrics.

    I will agree that many groups reflect bad theology in their music, though, and I am absolutely no fan of that. Some of those fellowships with aberrant theology employ great music to attract young seekers to their fellowship (Bethel and the New Apostolic Reformation crowd comes to mind), so that's developing into a real problem too.

    I think some of us older guys (I am 54) run the risk of discouraging younger people by being too critical of the Christian music that they listen to. It's sort of the same traditionalist mentality that the KJV Only people express in their liturgy, their teaching, and their insistence that the younger generation adopt the same customs. I often hear KJV fuddy duddies whining about why church attendance is dying, with the implication that things are getting worse. I disagree; I think their obstinancy and insistence upon forcing compliance on irrelevant customs drives younger people out of their fellowships...luckily there are many other fellowships that aren't entrenched in the same mentality, for the younger people to attend.

    God's church won't fade away anyways..just the dead limbs that need pruning.

    Anyways, here's my playlist of music. I see younger people actively engaged in the worship of God with music that everyone should be happy with, especially with Vertical Church Band. Sometimes I find myself in tears watching the crowd worshipping God passionately.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqnR...YY0vYf&index=1

    And..by the way I like some of the traditional hymns too, if they are powerful and have sound lyrics. And, so do many of the younger people.
    Last edited by sparkman; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:36 PM.
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    I am a former Sabbath/festival/clean meat law keeper as an ex Armstrongite so I am intimately familiar with Judaizer claims and can provide good responses if you are troubled by them. Send me a message at [email protected] . Judaizers are often cultists and conspiracy theorists with a distorted, National Enquirer-like view of church history. I wasted a decade of my life in their paranoid worldview. I also recommend the book Freedom in Christ by Meno Kalisher on this topic.


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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    This has been an issue for me - especially since I like to hangout in the youtube room.All manner of " christian" music is played there - often with no regard to the content or aesthetic value of the songs.
    The conspiracy of which you speak is real.There is a buck to be made out of this genre and it has also been infiltrated by apostates - even the world itself.

    Sparkman is too right about the fact that so called worship songs from Christian franchises such as Hillsong and Bethel lure their listeners into their establishments with music that is appealing to the sensibilities of young listeners.The music is the bait for the heretical teachings of the apostate church.
    Sometimes I even find myself slipping in a song from the aforementioned groups into my playlist because the musical quality is so alluring.....but I try not to pay too much attention to the words which are wishy washy at best.

    So, in my attempt to source music with good theology I have sifted through many bands and have discovered a few worthwhile artists such as: Esterlyn, Shai Linne, Matt Papa, Kings Kaleidoscope and even white metal band, Affector.

    Esterlyn is a group that comes from Calvary Chapel church.Pretty middle of the road but the purity and simplicity of their faith shines through their music.Also, to be noted; the name ," Esterlyn" is actually the name of a special needs baby the lead singer and his wife adopted.So that is quite special.

    Shai Linne is an African American hip hop artist - with a twist....he is reformed.His lyrics and poetry are incredibly solid and his songs are polished and well put together.He is a shining light on a very bleak horizon - that is, the christian music scene.

    Matt Papa is also reformed.He has a slightly more country feel to his work - and it works because he is being authentic - a Southern guy.His music keeps the gospel central and challenges the listener to rise above western ennui and do something mighty for God.I like that about him.

    Kings Kaleidoscope is a suite that employs the use of varied instruments - both classical and synthetic ( as far as I can tell.) They like to take an old hymn and revamp it so it has more " oomph!" I love their rendition of " Come thou Fount of every blessing."
    As far as worship goes - hymns do it for me.John MacArthur once said that if you want your worship to be transcendant - your theology has to go deep.Amen.

    Lastly, Affector.Although I am not a metal head - I could seriously get hooked on Affector.They take their lyrics straight out of the bible and set it to metal which could be described as light and playful.The last album of theirs is called," Harmegeddon."Obviously as the title hints, its about the last days and the book of Revelation.

    To the OP.I totally understand your consternation about what I call the " Dark Ages" of christian music.Holy music was probably better in the days of Bach and Handel....and we probably need a Renaissance in culture in general for the church to be producing music which conveys and magnifies the profundities of the gospel , the majesty and magnificence of the One we serve and the gravitas of the cross.Till then, I hope the above mentioned sprinkling of Christian artists is a bit of a lead for you.
    Last edited by Mooky; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooky View Post
    Shai Linne is an African American hip hop artist - with a twist....he is reformed.
    I thought most Christian Rappers were Reformed.
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odelschwanck View Post
    I thought most Christian Rappers were Reformed.
    lol..is that all you got out of my post? Go and nit pick someone elses post, thank - you kindly.
    "God would not rub so hard if it were not to fetch out the dirt that is ingrained in our natures. God loves purity so well He had rather see a hole than a spot in His child's garments."


    —William Gurnall



    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RR4bBnmFGHA

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    The original poster and his writing puts focus on certain aspects of (members) of bands and they're lyrics. I wish to make a certain difference between a) time and place; b) the proposed use of the music or the lyrics of the song; and c) the artist/band/group. The way the OP judges is somewhat too harsh in my opinion and doesn't do justice to all aspects involved.

    To start with the aspect of time, specialy hindsight. Saying things in hindsight is always easy. Nevertheless I do want to make a clear distinction to music that I find acceptable and music that I don't find acceptable. And it might could be that what I find acceptable now, I will not find acceptable later on, and vice versa.

    To show what time can do, I want to show the (for this purpose) lyrics of a popular Dutch song, back in 1987.

    Dutch lyrics, if you want to put them in a translate machine yourself:

    Ik sta op, nog niet wakker.
    Ik wankel door het huis als 'n stakker.
    Maar ondanks alles haal ik m'n doel, op het gevoel.
    Ja, ik ben een gebruiker.
    Het pure spul, dus zonder de suiker.
    Ik giet het zwarte goud in een kop, leef weer op.

    En de markt wordt stabieler,
    de grote winkels werken als dealer.
    Een Angolees of Braziliaan levert het aan.
    Het bevat caffeine,
    ik loop erop als was 't benzine.
    Espresso, super, beide loodvrij, dus doet U mij:

    Een kopje koffie.

    Translated lyrics (with the intentional meaning)

    I get up, not yet awake, so
    I walk around my home like a zombie.
    But regardless I get to my shot, just routine.
    Yes, I am a user.
    The pure stuff, so without sugar.
    I put the black gold in, and I get happy.

    And the market (for the stuff) gets more stable,
    the big stores work as dealer.
    A guy from Angola or Brazil delivers.
    It has caffeine,
    I run on it like gasoline.
    Espresso, super, unleaded, so give me:

    A cup of coffee.

    To be clear: this song was not about using drugs and promoting anything like that; it only sings about the collective hunger for coffee. But it uses references to being an addict; and actualy makes people aware that you can be an coffee-addict.

    By the way: these Dutch lyrics weren't the original lyrics. The original song was made by Brazilian, called Roberto Carlos. He made this song -Verde e amarelo- about the pride to wear the football (excuse me: soccer) shirt for the Brazilian national team.

    The Dutch song above used to be no problem at all back in the days. Nowadays it's only been played on radio stations with a target audience age 35 and older, because of the explicit lyrics. You would say: why is coffee explicit? That has to do with a recent, dangerous, form of XTC that was or still is available in the EDM-scene, branded: k0ffie (c0ffee). The song from 1987 has no pretention at all to refer to this form of XTC.

    My point is: the meaning of lyrics of a song can become different because of time. Because of new inventions, because of a new presidents, because landmarks have been replaced by other landmarks, because ... you name it. This is not just true for secular (if it would be fair to call it that way) music, but true for all kind of lyrics.

    Not just the meaning of lyrics can change; even the music of a song can get a different meaning. Most notoriously all kind of 'devilish' chords, as can be found tritones, best examples are the augmented 4th or deminished 5th (depending on your look on life). While it is nothing less or nothing more than an very common interval between two notes. These days, that interval is no longer a problem. Mostly because we have found out that the theory behind it is inconsitent and makes no sense at all. Let me show you that with an example.

    Because I don't want angry supporters of neither Hillsong or Jesus Culture (which are both -in legal entity- church cooperations) blaming me for all kind of things because I said they are using augmented 4th in many of their songs, I'm going to use another church cooperation that says it has strong ties with the Bible.

    The Roman Catholic Church (despite what you may think on them) finds 'The West Side Story', the musical, a great inspirational musical based on christian love. I don't know where they got that from. But for many years it has claimed the augmented 4th-chord is not to be used, because it was devilish. In the West Side Story there is a song called Maria. I think most people will know that song. It has atleast 10 times (if not, more) an augmented 4th-chord in it.

    To understand what a song means, you not only have to know meaning of the words in it and maybe (in some cases) understand the musical theory behind some different notes and chords, you also have to be aware in the time, and therefor, mindset, it was made.

    Does that justifies clearly false doctrine in 'christian' (if there is such) music? No. Teaching false doctrine against scripture will be consistently wrong, regardless of time.

    The artist/band/group preforming is always a mixture of emotions, feelings and opinions about many things. Amongst those are also the way one looks towards God and Jesus as their personal savior. Those opinions can change. A person that once might could be called a christian (I do not want to judge on that, I leave that up to God) might now call himself/herself an atheist.

    Let take for example something that has not happened yet, but just for the purpose of illustration. Matt Redman, for this example, now suddenly says he is an atheist. Matt Redman is also the writer of the song 10,000 reasons / Bless the Lord oh my soul.

    Does the situation (again, in this example - not saying he is) that Matt Redman claims to be an atheist change the general meanings of the lyrics of the song? No. It wouldn't. It would, according to me, still be a great song for christians to sing.

    Now, again for the purpose of illustration, let say Matt Redman did an interview with Rock 'n Roll Magazine in which he announces that he was not a christian at all, but just implanted this song into the christian world and it was actualy ment to worship someone else than God.

    Does that changes the situation? Yes. It would. If you would be aware of such statement then you would be aware of the evil roots it clearly has.

    Same goes for the music. For example. There are some works of classical music, specialy composed for 'masonic' purposes, therefor to worship the great builder (whoever that might be). That is clearly in contradiction with scripture.

    If you want to say something about the 'christianess', and therefor also theology behind, a song, you must be aware of this aspect aswell. You cannot say: because he is like this now, or back than, all the music of this person is bad.

    To conclude:

    - be aware on your judgement (Mat. 7 verse 2)
    - don't be too quick with saying: if a is bad, than b will be to
    - if you find that most of the music of one artist/band/group ain't good, then it's probably wise to ignore that from that point onwards
    - maybe a better standard would be: is the song not anti-christian, then it is okay [like the coffeesong mentioned above, unless you realy think it is ment to be to make us all coffee addicts (which I don't it does)]

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Using rock music to attract people to the Church is "improper seed"..like Lot sleeping with his daughter and producing improper seed..( thats a type).. why do we have to have rock music? whats wrong with just having singing to the Lord?

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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Thanks for sharing the article, thehardertruths. I wasn't giving much attention to lyrics of songs. It's the melody that makes me attracted to songs. I have downloaded christian songs before and those rock songs were just deleted based on loudness and messiness of the sound. What remained are the ones nice for my ears. I am aware however, now, that lyrics could be or should I say... that lyrics should also be checked... Of course, those music are medium of which information can get inside our head. And, I am aware that, those are mediums used to deceive.

    As the author recommended, Chris Tomlin's song has good lyrics. So, I worry not abut the message. And, the melody is nice. So, I can sit back and relax... This is the first time, however, I heard of that singer.

    Thanks for sharing.

    See? I feel happy if someone shares something nice... That is why I am sharing, too...
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    Default Re: Christian music theology - Bad to worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by europanzz View Post
    Using rock music to attract people to the Church is "improper seed"..like Lot sleeping with his daughter and producing improper seed..( thats a type).. why do we have to have rock music? whats wrong with just having singing to the Lord?
    Where in the Bible does it say that rock music is improper seed? I have read it and it says it nowhere. Also, it was Lot's daughters who had sex with him and not just one daughter. You can sing to the Lord with rock music, just as you can sing to the lord with salsa, rumba, EDM, and rap. It is not just hymns anymore. Stop it in Jesus' name! God bless.

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