This is Sickening...How are we making Suicide a Viable Option?!

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,338
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#41
I have to ask a question.


Where in the bible does it say that anything, anything at all, overrides God's sovereignty to be God?

Is there really some circumstance where YOU suddenly gain sovereignty, and God loses HIS?

Really?

Suffering can be very real, and very terrible... but is there really a place where your suffering overrides the sovereignty of God?

I don't want to suffer terrible illness, and I don't want others to suffer terrible illness... but we live in a fallen world full of pain and suffering... and nowhere in the bible does anyone's suffering override the sovereignty of God.

How we FEEL about something doesn't change the principles of scripture.

On the brightest day, or the darkest day... God is still God... and we are not.



 
Feb 16, 2014
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#42
There is no contradiction in my logic.
There's your claim, now where's the explanation?

Different then someone taking their own life all together.
Yes, there is a difference between killing someone else and killing yourself. But the differences are irrelevant to the point you originally made in which you stated: "God is the creator of life.He is the one who gives it and he's the one who takes it away.We do not have a right to take life."

Your statement is incredibly broad. It's so broad that if it applies to suicide, then it must also apply to all instances where you might have to kill someone - such as moments in which a person might have to defend themselves or other people.

As a Christian it is up to God whether we live or die.
1. If this is true, then why do you make attempts to protect yourself? If you're in a car and you get into an accident - God will either protect you or kill you depending on whether or not it's your time. Whether or not you wear a seatbelt should be entirely irrelevant because if you wear a seatbelt and God wants you to die, he'll make it so you die. And if God wants you to live, then he'll protect you even if you weren't wearing a seatbelt. So why bother with a seatbelt?

Clearly, we do have an impact on our own well-being.

I go by what He says on the subject.Period.
It depends.

If you believe it's okay to kill an attacker in self defense, then you're wrong. You do not always go by what he says on the subject, you only some times go by what he says on the subject.

If you believe you can't kill, even for self defense, then you're remaining consistent with your claim.

This is why I ask - because most people who believe it's always wrong to dictate whether someone lives or dies have a quick change of mind when you talk about self defense. All of a sudden, it becomes perfectly acceptable to kill someone else if they're a threat to you and your family's safety!

Instead of saying, "I know I'm right", sit down and actually think about it. Okay?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
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#43
No one yet has discussed the distinction between one who no longer has their 'mental faculties' intact...thus triggering doctor assisted suicide and one who is 'all there' and yet chooses doctor assisted suicide.

I'm dead set against the first...undecided with the latter.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#44
There's your claim, now where's the explanation?



Yes, there is a difference between killing someone else and killing yourself. But the differences are irrelevant to the point you originally made in which you stated: "God is the creator of life.He is the one who gives it and he's the one who takes it away.We do not have a right to take life."

Your statement is incredibly broad. It's so broad that if it applies to suicide, then it must also apply to all instances where you might have to kill someone - such as moments in which a person might have to defend themselves or other people.



1. If this is true, then why do you make attempts to protect yourself? If you're in a car and you get into an accident - God will either protect you or kill you depending on whether or not it's your time. Whether or not you wear a seatbelt should be entirely irrelevant because if you wear a seatbelt and God wants you to die, he'll make it so you die. And if God wants you to live, then he'll protect you even if you weren't wearing a seatbelt. So why bother with a seatbelt?

Clearly, we do have an impact on our own well-being.



It depends.

If you believe it's okay to kill an attacker in self defense, then you're wrong. You do not always go by what he says on the subject, you only some times go by what he says on the subject.

If you believe you can't kill, even for self defense, then you're remaining consistent with your claim.

This is why I ask - because most people who believe it's always wrong to dictate whether someone lives or dies have a quick change of mind when you talk about self defense. All of a sudden, it becomes perfectly acceptable to kill someone else if they're a threat to you and your family's safety!

Instead of saying, "I know I'm right", sit down and actually think about it. Okay?
I don't need to sit down and think about it.In the OT killing a person because they murder someone is justifiable.That was Gods commandment.Murder and killing someone who takes an innocent life is not the same in Gods eyes.So there is my explanation which I already stated above. The Bible says...[h=3]1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV / 585 helpful votes[/h]Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

So as I said I take his word on it.That seems pretty straight forward to me.


[h=3]1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV / 243 helpful votes[/h]Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Notice "you are not your own".However we die God is the one who allows the life breath to go out of us.Whether in a car,by sickness or whatever reason.If we wake up breathing it is because he allows it.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
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#45
I don't need to sit down and think about it.In the OT killing a person because they murder someone is justifiable.That was Gods commandment.Murder and killing someone who takes an innocent life is not the same in Gods eyes.So there is my explanation which I already stated above. The Bible says...1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ESV / 585 helpful votes

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

So as I said I take his word on it.That seems pretty straight forward to me.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ESV / 243 helpful votes

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Notice "you are not your own".However we die God is the one who allows the life breath to go out of us.Whether in a car,by sickness or whatever reason.If we wake up breathing it is because he allows it.
Clearly you are missing the point...Would you sit idly by and let someone kill your loved ones or would you kill them first? You are the only one who can save their lives.
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
#46
As a mature Christian woman I have come to the conclusion that God is real, He is my Father and His promises are real and true. What happens in my life is directly related to what I believe about Him and His love for me.

As Christians we must ask ourselves why has God directed us in His Word to have faith in Him., Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. That is the life we are called to live., a life of faith that believes regardless of outward appearances. Psalm 91 No matter how real the suffering around us with it's losses and the pain.

He has called us to walk according to what we cannot see AND in fact.,sometimes and more often than not - won't make ANY sense in the natural., But., when we do, He will meet us there. That is a promise that will change us from faith to faith and glory to glory. Any other way is not His best for us. Being afraid is not His will for us EVER.




 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#47
Clearly you are missing the point...Would you sit idly by and let someone kill your loved ones or would you kill them first? You are the only one who can save their lives.[/QUOTE


No Im not missing the point.The one has no bearing on the other.In the OT murder was judged to be wrong and the sentence was death. That was administered by the people.That is not the same as committing suicide.It is wrong to take innocent life.Abortion,suicide,murder. But its justice to kill someone that is trying to kill your family.In that instance God has said they must be put to death.The two situations are not the same at all.Im not playing God if I kill a murderer.God has said "put them to death".If I abort a child or commit suicide I am playing God.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#48
Clearly you are missing the point...Would you sit idly by and let someone kill your loved ones or would you kill them first? You are the only one who can save their lives.[/QUOTE


No Im not missing the point.The one has no bearing on the other.In the OT murder was judged to be wrong and the sentence was death. That was administered by the people.That is not the same as committing suicide.It is wrong to take innocent life.Abortion,suicide,murder. But its justice to kill someone that is trying to kill your family.In that instance God has said they must be put to death.The two situations are not the same at all.Im not playing God if I kill a murderer.God has said "put them to death".If I abort a child or commit suicide I am playing God.
Whether you have God's permission to kill a murderer or not, you're still technically contradicting what you said earlier about how God is the only one allowed to give or take life. Clearly, according to your post, God gave us exceptions to your earlier statement.

Instead of saying the reason is because "God is the only one allowed to give and take life", you should simply stick with, "Because God said it's wrong" since that's what it ultimately boils down to.

Anyway, I appreciate your response.
 

OnThisRock

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2011
353
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#49
Tragic for sure....I bet she wishes she could change her mind if she was lost and without the blood of Christ covering her......and yes...when our society begins to accept this type of practice...makes me wonder what is next...euthanasia of the elderly and or sick children.......!

I have heard sometimes that doctors do give overmedication above and beyond the regular pain medications in order to speed up the process in some people's death. It's already happening. Too much pain medications, at the end will stop breathing, etc.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#50
Clearly you are missing the point...Would you sit idly by and let someone kill your loved ones or would you kill them first? You are the only one who can save their lives.[/QUOTE


No Im not missing the point.The one has no bearing on the other.In the OT murder was judged to be wrong and the sentence was death. That was administered by the people.That is not the same as committing suicide.It is wrong to take innocent life.Abortion,suicide,murder. But its justice to kill someone that is trying to kill your family.In that instance God has said they must be put to death.The two situations are not the same at all.Im not playing God if I kill a murderer.God has said "put them to death".If I abort a child or commit suicide I am playing God.
yourealize abortion is making a decision for an unborn child who has no choice while suicide in face of a debilitating disease is a personal one right?
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
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#51
Let's also not forget that the OP is a catholic who views suicide as a mortal sin. Whereas in actual christianity I do not believe sins are segregated into categories of severity
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#52
Let's also not forget that the OP is a catholic who views suicide as a mortal sin. Whereas in actual christianity I do not believe sins are segregated into categories of severity
And you have argued suicide as a right of man. I'm sorry, where do we find that right? It is not in Scripture. We are never given the right to take our own lives, to seek the "easy way out". Christ did not advocate for the Leper to take a knife to his wrists or neck. He advocated for us to take care of the Leper, to befriend, and encourage them. He exhorted us to visit the sick and the dying, not kill them or support their wish to be killed.

People are calling this woman a hero. She is not a hero. She was a scared little girl who made a stupid decision.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
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#53
ill wait til your dying of cancer and are wishing to be rid of the pain and decay. then we will see who the scared little girl is.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
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#54
Call 911 cause I murdered my dad....
when I followed through with his DNR request of not being artificially kept alive.

Sorry to clue some of you folks in but christians don't get spared the messiness of death.
You may end up out of your mind and wearing a diaper...that's just how this world goes. She chose not to go that way.
She probably wasn't saved and that is just a horrible fact we all have to deal with face to face with God but I don't blame her one bit for not wanting to go out that way.
A DNR is a whole different thing than assisted suicide. It is letting God take people naturally, in their time. It is not actively pushing the person to their death.

I also watched my father die peacefully after we stopped he unnatural interventions of balancing heart, liver and kidney functions in a totally compromised body. He was comfortable and happy to go home to The Lord, in God's time. I really don't think my father would have lasted more than a week longer even with the mechanistic interventions of modern medicine.

A DNR is passive. It really is letting death unfold in God's time, as even 50 years ago, or in countries without modern medicine do today. Assisted suicide is actively taking the life of a person, regardless of their diagnosis, before God calls them home! Which is the definition of murder.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
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#55
Here is an excellent blog by Joni Eareckson Tada, one of the longest living quadriplegics on record, and a cancer survivor.

Joni Eareckson Tada to Brittany Maynard: God alone chooses the day you die, not you - Religion News Service

"Brittany may think her choice is a highly personal and private one, but it is not. Already, her decision has reignited hotly contested debates as to whether physician-assisted suicide should be expanded beyond the five states where it is legal. Proponents of Brittany’s decision are already using her story as a bully pulpit to advance their so-called death-with-dignity agendas.
But should access to lethal prescriptions be considered as merely another menu item available for dying patients? Is good hospice care allowing for people to control the timing and manner of their deaths? I do not believe so. Expanding hospice “services” to include an option to be put to death would not enhance palliative care, but actually interfere with the proper delivery of hospice services.
There are good laws throughout the U.S. that help people die with dignity — laws that provide advanced pain management therapies for people dealing with intractable pain. Plus, people have the legal right to refuse treatment if they don’t want it.
In addition, legalizing physician-assisted suicide in more states may send a bad signal to families who have little access to health care dollars: Would we be saying to low-income families, “We won’t provide health care for your critical condition, but we can make it easier for you to commit suicide”?
Most of all, assisted suicide poses a real danger to people with disabilities. Who is to say when multiple sclerosis or ALS is classifed as “terminal”? People who receive a diagnosis of a chronic, disabling condition often experience suicidal feelings, but later adapt very well. Working through that initial period of despondency takes a lot longer than the “waiting periods” of existing physician-assisted suicide laws.
J



Only Jesus was able to transform the landscape of life-after-death by conquering the grave and opening the path to eternal life. Three grams of phenobarbital will provide only a temporary reprieve and will only more quickly usher in an eternity separated from God, which would be ultimate and pointless suffering.
Life is the most irreplaceable and fundamental condition of the human experience, and I implore Brittany and others considering her example to take a long, hard look at the consequences of a decision that is so fatal, and worst of all, so final.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#56
I've had said this before (not on here, but on other places) and I will say it again.

Suicide is suicide, no matter how you look at it.

We all die eventually. So how different is it for someone to hang themselves than it is for someone to take the pill?

As a lot of you guys know, I do not post this out of ignorance. I watched my own mother die of pancreatic cancer. But I'm glad she didn't choose to just take a pill when things got bad (though I'm not in a state that allows that, that's not the point). Because it wasn't about her suffering, it was about her being with us. Being able to spend just one more day with her. Also, hospice is supposed to help with these things. My mom was in hospice. I know for a fact she would have never considered a pill that would kill her. It's not always about the suffering. We as humans look too much into the suffering. Maybe we should wait and see what GOD has to say about our lives. Maybe we should let God WORK in our lives through these times. It's not about us or what we want.

Like Paul said, we have to learn to be content in EVERY situation. No matter what comes our way.
[h=1]Philippians 4:11-13 (NASB)[/h]11 Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am. 12 I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need. 13 I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.


God has life and death in HIS hands for a reason - humanity is corrupted. It would become out of control if humans were to have the ability to give and take life. It's slowly happening, though. From aborting babies to allowing terminally ill people to take a pill.

And THIS, ladies and gentlemen, is why we need the Lord. Why the WORLD needs the Lord. I know not all of you will agree with me, and that's okay.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#57
Brittany may think her choice is a highly personal and private one, but it is not. Already, her decision has reignited hotly contested debates as to whether physician-assisted suicide should be expanded beyond the five states where it is legal.
It was a personal choice - she's the one who made the decision. And before discussing whether or not it was personal, we must define what it means for something to be a personal choice. She was very outspoken about her choice - in that regard it wasn't personal. But it was personal in the sense that it's something she chose.

But should access to lethal prescriptions be considered as merely another menu item available for dying patients? Is good hospice care allowing for people to control the timing and manner of their deaths? I do not believe so. Expanding hospice “services” to include an option to be put to death would not enhance palliative care, but actually interfere with the proper delivery of hospice services.
It would interfere with hospice services? Then why isn't it? Keep in mind, assisted suicide is legal in five states already and we see no evidence of hospice services being compromised.

There are good laws throughout the U.S. that help people die with dignity — laws that provide advanced pain management therapies for people dealing with intractable pain. Plus, people have the legal right to refuse treatment if they don’t want it.
How does the author try to justify hospice care? By pointing out that it's a choice.

Assisted suicide is also a choice.

In addition, legalizing physician-assisted suicide in more states may send a bad signal to families who have little access to health care dollars: Would we be saying to low-income families, “We won’t provide health care for your critical condition, but we can make it easier for you to commit suicide”?
How is this any different than hospice?

Most of all, assisted suicide poses a real danger to people with disabilities. Who is to say when multiple sclerosis or ALS is classifed as “terminal”? People who receive a diagnosis of a chronic, disabling condition often experience suicidal feelings, but later adapt very well.
Multiple Sclerosis is not always fatal, therefore it wouldn't be considered terminal in most cases. But if a person is going to die from Multiple Sclerosis, then it does become a terminal illness.

The same goes for ALS, except ALS often is fatal.

A person who has breast cancer isn't going to easily obtain poison so that she may end her life. She's going to be evaluated and given the poison whenever it's clear her life is most definitely going to end and when she starts to experience pain.

Assisted Suicide relies on a very serious process to evaluate whether or not someone is actually terminally ill. To suggest non-terminal people might eventually be granted the choice of committing legal suicide is an unfounded statement.

Only Jesus was able to transform the landscape of life-after-death by conquering the grave and opening the path to eternal life.
If you believe this, then you don't have to partake in assisted suicide. But don't force people who don't believe this to suffer against their will.

Life is the most irreplaceable and fundamental condition of the human experience, and I implore Brittany and others considering her example to take a long, hard look at the consequences of a decision that is so fatal, and worst of all, so final.
Brittany put A LOT of thought into her decision. She concluded that she's either going to die right before the cancer kills her, or she's going to let the cancer torture her so she can't enjoy a single moment she's breathing until the cancer finally does her in. But what about suffering in hell for all eternity? Well, it's simple, not everyone believes they're going to suffer in hell for all eternity if they kill themselves to escape the pain of dying miserably.

If you believe assisted suicide will lead to an eternity in hell, then try to convince people assisted suicide will lead to an eternity of damnation. But keep it a choice! Don't force people to accept your views. If a person doesn't believe they'll burn for all eternity for killing themselves, then let them do it.

Lastly, many terminally ill people still kill themselves. Assisted suicide simply allows these people to die in a more controlled manner.

I think drinking alcohol to get drunk is wrong. But I believe it should also be a choice. I believe Christians should adopt similar views when it comes to assisted suicide.
 
Feb 16, 2014
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#58
God has life and death in HIS hands for a reason - humanity is corrupted. It would become out of control if humans were to have the ability to give and take life.
Two words: Sex and guns.

I think you're confusing what we can and can't do with what we ought and ought not do. For example, I can smash smash my manager's windshield on her car, but I ought not do it.

We already have the ability to take away life. Making assisted suicide doesn't give us this ability - our ability to do so already exists. You can argue that legalizing it gives us the idea that it's acceptable when it shouldn't be, and perhaps that's what you really meant.

Regardless as to whether or not assisted suicide is acceptable, it's something you should allow. You believe it's unacceptable not to worship God, but it's legal not to. The same should go for assisted suicide. If assisted suicide is wrong, then you should do everything you can to convince people not to kill themselves, not force them into not killing themselves.
 
J

jer2911

Guest
#59
Tragic for sure....I bet she wishes she could change her mind if she was lost and without the blood of Christ covering her......and yes...when our society begins to accept this type of practice...makes me wonder what is next...euthanasia of the elderly and or sick children.......!
Which led me to ask myself, "then what am I doing as a Christian?" Will God make me accountable for it? Or maybe what was prophesied in the Bible is already happening? Or perhaps, God chose not for her to know the truth. It's all beyond my knowledge. As for now, I'm doing my best to surpass the righteousness of the pagan. (Matthew 5:20), so that I can be a big help but if my best wasn't good enough, only then I could accept what I couldn't change. Need to trust God WHOLEHEARTEDLY and not my better judgment. To lean not on my own understanding. Thinking to suffer for God's glory is hard enough and how much more if you are already SUFFERING? I could only change myself - that's the assurance I have by the help of our LORD amidst the uncertainties and the chaos around me. May God be our strength to face the war before us. In Jesus name, I pray. Amen.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,706
3,650
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#60
The first assisted suicide. ..

Genesis 3:1-6
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.