Crushing Defeat: Ukranians flee separatists; Putin mocks cease-fire

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#1
Pro-Russian rebels force Ukrainian troops to retreat from railway hub, as Putin mocks cease-fire

Ukrainian separatists dubbed by Russian President Vladimir Putin as "yesterday’s miners or yesterday’s tractor drivers" drove Ukraine's army from a key rail hub in the eastern part of the country in what was branded a "crushing defeat" just days after a short-lived cease-fire agreement.

Fierce fighting around the town of Debaltseve, through which railroads linking the two major separatist cities of Donetsk and Luhansk pass, had been raging for days despite a cease-fire deal brokered by European leaders and signed by Putin to take effect Sunday. The past was supposed to be followed by the withdrawal of heavy weaponry beginning Tuesday, but the fighting barely paused.
Putin continues the lie that the "separatists" are "yesterday's miners or ... truck drivers," and not some of his own elite troops fighting in unmarked uniforms. Meanwhile, civilians trapped in eastern Ukraine who want no part of Russian annexation are unable to make their way out of the war zone to safety because Putin's thugs won't give them safe passage.

And NATO, by the U.S.'s lead, sits on its butt and watches from the sidelines while Putin nears the end of his first phase of reanimating the old Soviet.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
45
0
#2
I had seen this article on CNN saying much of the same.

Ukraine troops pull back from a key town as truce falters - CNN.com

Obviously given that the two sides are still clashing this does not bode well for anyone. However I am wondering if now that since Ukraine is withdrawing from Debaltseve to the agreed upon borders if perhaps there might be an opportunity here to pressure the factions to honor that ceasefire by reason that this area was the only reason by the Separatists for not ceasing their fire since they view Debaltseve as their territory. Also according to CNN, the Nationals are now officially withdrawing to the borders they agreed upon. So it seems to me there is a good chance here to at least attempt to make the agreement work.

Still good to be wary and watchful, but for the sake of the lives of the commonfolk, and to give them any opportunity possible to escape or have shelter, we (USA) should urge both sides to try to comply to the ceasefire at the least.
 
A

Anonimous

Guest
#3
Putin continues the lie that the "separatists" are "yesterday's miners or ... truck drivers," and not some of his own elite troops fighting in unmarked uniforms. Meanwhile, civilians trapped in eastern Ukraine who want no part of Russian annexation are unable to make their way out of the war zone to safety because Putin's thugs won't give them safe passage.

And NATO, by the U.S.'s lead, sits on its butt and watches from the sidelines while Putin nears the end of his first phase of reanimating the old Soviet.
NATO and The UN... Nothing else need be said.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#4
I had seen this article on CNN saying much of the same.

Ukraine troops pull back from a key town as truce falters - CNN.com

Obviously given that the two sides are still clashing this does not bode well for anyone. However I am wondering if now that since Ukraine is withdrawing from Debaltseve to the agreed upon borders if perhaps there might be an opportunity here to pressure the factions to honor that ceasefire by reason that this area was the only reason by the Separatists for not ceasing their fire since they view Debaltseve as their territory. Also according to CNN, the Nationals are now officially withdrawing to the borders they agreed upon. So it seems to me there is a good chance here to at least attempt to make the agreement work.

Still good to be wary and watchful, but for the sake of the lives of the commonfolk, and to give them any opportunity possible to escape or have shelter, we (USA) should urge both sides to try to comply to the ceasefire at the least.
The ceasefire is showboating.

Read the document for yourself. Poroshenko has already stated that they have no intention of upholding certain provisions expounded in the document.

Kiev demands the full surrender and the laying down of arms by the fighters of the L/DPR. They demand that they are to give full access of their territory to the Kiev authorities. They have denied that any amnesty will be given to the leaders and commanders of the rebellion, as well as anyone who has been involved in killing government forces.

There is simply no way that is going to happen.

Both sides interpret the Minsk Agreement differently. The Novorossia side interpret to mean they will be granted self government and that the Ukrainian constitution will be amended to that fact. The Ukrainian side interprets it to mean they will be granted control once again over the Donbass region.

The ceasefire is mere pontification from both sides. Both sides will use it to accuse the other of violating it.

The rebels truly believe they are fighting neo-nazism and fascism, a radical anti-russian nationalism which wants to persecute them. Not only that, but they view the government of Kiev as being a corrupt United States vassal government.

Anyone who thinks that this peace agreement is serious has simply not read it and does not understand the context.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#5
This is what the separatists believe they are fighting...

[video=youtube;NKuDzXAgdf4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKuDzXAgdf4[/video]

When people dismiss such things as fiction then any solution that actually addresses the real roots of the problem is impossible.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
45
0
#6
The ceasefire is showboating.

Read the document for yourself. Poroshenko has already stated that they have no intention of upholding certain provisions expounded in the document.

Kiev demands the full surrender and the laying down of arms by the fighters of the L/DPR. They demand that they are to give full access of their territory to the Kiev authorities. They have denied that any amnesty will be given to the leaders and commanders of the rebellion, as well as anyone who has been involved in killing government forces.

There is simply no way that is going to happen.

Both sides interpret the Minsk Agreement differently. The Novorossia side interpret to mean they will be granted self government and that the Ukrainian constitution will be amended to that fact. The Ukrainian side interprets it to mean they will be granted control once again over the Donbass region.

The ceasefire is mere pontification from both sides. Both sides will use it to accuse the other of violating it.

The rebels truly believe they are fighting neo-nazism and fascism, a radical anti-russian nationalism which wants to persecute them. Not only that, but they view the government of Kiev as being a corrupt United States vassal government.

Anyone who thinks that this peace agreement is serious has simply not read it and does not understand the context.
From what I have seen in media and even much of what both yourself and Viligant have posted it seems to me the ceasefire was only one provision of the agreement, not the sum total of it. They all agreed to at least the ceasefire provision, but not some other provisions. The Separatists agreed at first to abide but then argued not to abide by ceasefire because Nationalists were in control of parts of Debaltseve which they interpret as their territory of the agreement. Therefore now that Nationalists are leaving from Debaltseve and to the lines they agreed to this should satisfy the demands of the Separatists interpretation of the agreement and at the least warrant a possible short ceasefire to get even the families of those fighting on all sides or not fighting at all to safety.

The hope for a short ceasefire cannot be showboating if it has not even happened. Will they actually seek to achieve a short ceasefire to get their own families out of the way or will they just simply keep fighting? That is to be seen shortly.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#7
The U.S. and NATO cannot do a thing......no spine for what needs to be done and at the end of the day if they were to do something it would lead to a world war.......with NUKES!
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#8
From what I have seen in media and even much of what both yourself and Viligant have posted it seems to me the ceasefire was only one provision of the agreement, not the sum total of it. They all agreed to at least the ceasefire provision, but not some other provisions. The Separatists agreed at first to abide but then argued not to abide by ceasefire because Nationalists were in control of parts of Debaltseve which they interpret as their territory of the agreement. Therefore now that Nationalists are leaving from Debaltseve and to the lines they agreed to this should satisfy the demands of the Separatists interpretation of the agreement and at the least warrant a possible short ceasefire to get even the families of those fighting on all sides or not fighting at all to safety.

The hope for a short ceasefire cannot be showboating if it has not even happened. Will they actually seek to achieve a short ceasefire to get their own families out of the way or will they just simply keep fighting? That is to be seen shortly.
The separatists never agreed to a ceasefire regarding Debaltseve. Their position was that there was a cauldron and that it was therefore an internal issue. They called for those in the cauldron to lay down their arms and surrender in order to live.

Kiev on the other hand denied the cauldron existed. The hope of Kiev at Minsk was that during the talks the cauldron would be broken during the ongoing fighting. There were ongoing reports of the UAF launching offensive actions in order in an attempt to break through.

It appears Kiev were not successful though, yet upon the declaration of the ceasefire there was still denial at top levels that the UAF was actually surrounded in the area. Thus both sides were telling a different story, the L/DPR that they have the UAF encircled, Kiev that they were not encircled.

It was quite bizarre but not unprecedented. The same thing happened at the Donetsk Airport which was taken around the 16th of January by the NAF yet denied by Kiev until around the 22nd or so when they had their "tactical withdrawal." This all in the face of NAF video released well before the 22nd which showed that the airport was indeed captured.

There is a lot of phychological warfare and propaganda being conducted by both sides in the conflict.

Debaltseve is a railroad hub between the cities of Lugansk and Donetsk. The UAF had held it for the logistical purpose of cutting this railway network as well as it being a strategic wedge for future operations to divide both rebellious republics from each other.

Kiev obviously did not want to admit it was surrounded because to do so would be to admit that it was not part of their front lines, thus they would have to abandon it under the ceasefire. Front lines don't include pockets in enemy territory that are surrounded and cut off from supply. Kiev were clearly being overly optimistic in the hope the encirclement would be broken.

The L/DPR needed the encirclement to continue otherwise they would lose that area under the cease fire as it would be a part of the front lines as it has been for quite some time. They also did not want the surrounded UAF forces to leave with their weapons (just like in Illovaisk). They did offer what is called a "green corridor" but Kiev refused.

That is the context of the ongoing fighting in the area and that is the context of Kiev's announcement of a "tactical withdrawal." A "tactical withdrawal" from a "non-encirclement" allows Kiev to blame the L/DPR for a violation of the ceasefire.

It is all word games. There is no real ceasefire, just a scaling back of conflict where possible, as both sides try to make gains politically.

There was no real ceasefire last time either (Minsk 1).

There simply cannot be any real ceasefire when both sides want totally different things, things that conflict with each other.

Ukraine wants total control of the Donbass region, prosecution of the rebel leaders and then MAYBE there will be some autonomy given in some way.

What an offer right? That offer totally ignores the radical anti-Russian neo-nazism idealogy which is still running wild in Ukraine. After 8 months of blood being spilled and cities being bombed does anyone really think the L/DPR are going to submit themselves to such a thing? It is pure fantasy.

The L/DPR wants autonomy over their region, their own leaders, and they want NOTHING to do with a U.S. vassal government that supports radical neo-nazis.

Then there is Russia which is looking out for its own interests and views the west as attempting to contain it via proxy events in Ukraine.

None of the sides are really good guys. There is Russia with all its suppression and corruption, the people of Donbass caught in the middle of a horrible situation, also divided with subterfuge and machinations, the Ukraine government and its support of radical nationalism, sending unprepared conscripts to fight, the people of Ukraine who just want a better life, the Right Sector and its armed paramilitary units like the Privy Sektor and the Azov Battalion, and the U.S. who is turning a blind eye to the whole mess in uncritically supporting Kiev as it is all part of an agenda to contain Russia.

Here I am in the west seeing so much spin where people basically ignore what is really going on and end up supporting elites who can only make things worse, can only lead to more civilian casualties. It is a mess, the whole thing is tragic mess, a mess of lies.
 
Last edited:
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#9
Skin, I listened very, very carefully to what was being said vs. what was being subtitled. The film's editors obviously wanted to create an impression that the Ukrainian nationalist movement is facist, even Nazi. The subs translate one phrase as "Seig Heil!" That is a lie. That is not what they are saying at all. The phrase is Ukrainian for "Save Kiev!"

You say we ignore films like this at our own peril. I have no problem ignoring lies like this film, produced by old Soviet apparatchiks. The Jewish community of Kiev and in Odessa have both flatly denied the nationalist movement is pro-facist. So I have to reject your film as Putin propaganda. Sorry, no offense.
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#10
Skin, I listened very, very carefully to what was being said vs. what was being subtitled. The film's editors obviously wanted to create an impression that the Ukrainian nationalist movement is facist, even Nazi. The subs translate one phrase as "Seig Heil!" That is a lie. That is not what they are saying at all. The phrase is Ukrainian for "Save Kiev!"

You say we ignore films like this at our own peril. I have no problem ignoring lies like this film, produced by old Soviet apparatchiks. The Jewish community of Kiev and in Odessa have both flatly denied the nationalist movement is pro-facist. So I have to reject your film as Putin propaganda. Sorry, no offense.
My first thought was....this is pure propoganda.
 
Dec 18, 2013
6,733
45
0
#11
The separatists never agreed to a ceasefire regarding Debaltseve. Their position was that there was a cauldron and that it was therefore an internal issue. They called for those in the cauldron to lay down their arms and surrender in order to live.

(And more)QUOTE]

Yes, I understand this is what the Separatist viewpoint was of such. However, from what I had heard they did initially accept the ceasefire (granting it be as they interpretted it to be.) Which is not a bad thing. Since Debaltseve was the main reason for the Separatists for not implementing the ceasefire, and that is a right enough reason, now that it appears that the Separatists have control of Debaltseve that is my reasoning for wondering if the ceasefire might still be salvaged since that argument for them is now no longer an issue since they do now control Debaltseve. Plus the Nationalists were allowed to withdraw without much incident, which was their argument which too is now no longer an issue since it is accomplished.

Thus my thinking here would be to hope to salvage the ceasefire, or any sort of temporary respite. Since all arguments to my knowledge are for the time being fulfilled I am hoping for something positive for people of both sides or none before new arguments arise. Obviously though in wars people will look for any little reason to fight so the outcome is anyone's guess. Ultimately this will come down to what the two factions on the ground have set their minds and hearts towards. I try not to be too idealistic, but I do believe if any means of peace or relief are even remotely possible that it is worthy to strive for them until all such possibilities are completely exhausted.

Just to note, this is to be read more as commentary rather than debate. I do agree with a fair bit of your assessment.
 
Last edited:
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#12
the argument over debaltsevo is now academic...because the separatists have captured it and they are now turning their aggression towards the vicinity of mariupol which has -always- been under the control of the ukrainian government and which is -miles- from the front line...an action they can have absolutely no excuse for...

mariupol however is wanted by russia for a land route to occupied crimea and probably also for an advance on the 'transdnistria' part of moldova which russia has also been deeply meddling in for years...so that is the actual motivation...
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#13
the argument over debaltsevo is now academic...because the separatists have captured it and they are now turning their aggression towards the vicinity of mariupol which has -always- been under the control of the ukrainian government and which is -miles- from the front line...an action they can have absolutely no excuse for...

mariupol however is wanted by russia for a land route to occupied crimea and probably also for an advance on the 'transdnistria' part of moldova which russia has also been deeply meddling in for years...so that is the actual motivation...
the argument over debaltsevo is now academic...because the separatists have captured it and they are now turning their aggression towards the vicinity of mariupol which has -always- been under the control of the ukrainian government and which is -miles- from the front line...an action they can have absolutely no excuse for...

mariupol however is wanted by russia for a land route to occupied crimea and probably also for an advance on the 'transdnistria' part of moldova which russia has also been deeply meddling in for years...so that is the actual motivation...
Here is some information on the Azov Battalion which is headquartered in Mariupol.

That is these guys...

Bxbo17vCAAEu7tm.jpg



Azov Battalion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Azov Battalion was formed on May 5, 2014 during the 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. Aside from Kolomoyskyi, other patrons of the battalion are Oleh Lyashko, a member of the Verkhovna Rada, and ultra-nationalist Dmytro Korchynsky.[SUP][9][/SUP] The battalion was formed in Mariupol, where it was involved in combat against separatists,[SUP][3][/SUP] and was briefly relocated to Berdyansk.[SUP][10][/SUP] The battalion is also referred to as the "Men in Black."[SUP][3][/SUP]
The battalion's commander is Andriy Biletsky (Ukrainian: Андрій Білецький). In its early days, Azov was the Ministry of Internal Affairs special police company, led by Volodymyr Shpara (Ukrainian: Володимир Шпара), the leader of the Vasylkiv's Patriot of Ukraine and Right Sector organizations in the Kiev region.[SUP][11][/SUP][SUP][12][/SUP][SUP][13][/SUP] Biletsky stayed out of the public spotlight working on expanding Azov to battalion size. In summer 2014 he took the command of the unit in his own hands; Shpara remained in the battalion as the commander of the 1st Company. Biletsky is also the head of two neo-Nazi political groups, Patriot of Ukraine and Social-National Assembly.
The Azov Battalion commander last year wrote this...

Apart from the question of purity, we must pay attention to the issue of the usefulness of Race. Ukrainians - it's part (and one of the largest and highest quality) European White Race. Races Creator of a great civilization, the greatest human achievements. The historic mission of our nation at this critical time - to lead and lead the White peoples of the world in the last crusade for their existence. Crusade against Semite-led subhumanity.
Идеология Социал-Национальной Ассамблеи ‹ WotanJugend

Due to PR purposes the Odin Youth (Woten Jugend) website, an Aryan Neo-Nazi publication, removed Biletsky's article from last year. Fortunately that article it is still available to read via the Internet Wayback Machine. The Odin Youth website openly supports Biletsk's paramilitary group.

Recently, an amendment tabled in the U.S. Congress for the purpose of blocking the funding of Neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine was rejected.

How the Israel Lobby Protected Ukrainian Neo-Nazis
How the Israel Lobby Protected Ukrainian Neo-Nazis | Alternet

[video=youtube;zdSWsSk_Fhc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdSWsSk_Fhc[/video]


Last Friday — November 21, 2014 — will go down in Western moral history as a day of infamy. Shamefully, the United States and Canada, along with Ukraine, made up the lonely threesome of nations at the UN who voted “No” on a resolution that called for: “Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fueling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance.” How could this have happened?
Ukraine — bonanza for upgraded Holocaust denial | Dovid Katz | The Blogs | The Times of Israel

Now I owuld vote no for that resolution too because it contains very ambiguous language regarding discrimination of any sorts and thus is utterly anti-freedom and therefore opens the door to persecution of Christians. Yet the U.S. government often espouses "anti-discrimination and tolerance" rhetoric, so a question as to why they did in fact vote no I think is very applicable in this context.


Here is an interview with a captured Azov Battalion member. He was captured the other day in the recent Azov offensive operation down near Mariupol. This interview is quite insightful as to why many of these young men join the Azov Battalion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOv_KSWRRc

Here is a news story about a Right Sector subvervise cell which was discovered operating in LPR controlled territory near Luhansk. Clear Neo-Nazi motivating factors are evident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m9DJ0YzKXI


If political leaders really wanted peace in Ukraine they would be honest about what is really motivating the Separatists instead of blaming it all on Russia propaganda and a Russian invasion. Incidents like the terrible violence in Mariupol committed by radical nationalists last year and events like the Odessa Massacre and even the earlier beatings and murder of those Crimean protesters who were stopped en route from Kiev to Crimea near Korsun-Shevchenkivskyi all have played a strong role in motivating the people in the east to rebel. By refusing to address that those people have basically been told to shut up and submit. There can be no peace in this kind of atmosphere.

The DPR clearly view Mariupol as being part of their new nation and Ukraine views the DPR as a bunch of Russian proxy terrorists. What will be the result? Another destroyed city and the death of many civilians and combatents. This whole "blame Russia for everything" attitude in the west simply opens the spicket to pour forth more blood. Shame on us.
 
Last edited:
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#14
oy vey...posting a video conspiracy theory about 'the israel lobby' and then accusing -other people- of antisemitism and neo naziism?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#15
it has become pretty clear at this point that 'skinski7' will always excuse pretty much everything russia and their separatist puppets do...

the separatists attacked debaltsevo during the ceasfire they agreed to...skinski7 makes excuses for them...
the separatists move on mariupol after taking debaltsevo and removing their last justification for breaking the ceasefire...skinski7 makes excuses for them...

if russia ever attacks estonia i am sure skinski7 will have an excuse for that too...
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#16
Here is a couple of videos pertaining to what occurred in Mariupol last year. Warning there is course language and violence but people ought to be aware of many of the seeds that lie at the root of this conflict.

Violent Clashes in Mariupol - Vice News (shows aftermath of Ukrainian National Guard and Right Sector attack on Mariupol police station)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlSzewPMhD4

Victory Day in Mariupol (shows the lead up to the Victory celebration as well as its aftermath).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUD3VxlTSqQ


I think it is important to remember that the Russian people fought against the Nazis in World War 2. They call WW2 the "Great Patriotic War." Thus with this modern emergence of radical nationalism in Ukraine alongside with the clear use of ancient rune symbolism and the advocating the ideals of Stepan Bandera is is not really hard to understand why many people in the east of Ukraine believe they are fighting "modern Nazis" whom are backed by the west. If they were to submit to this kind of nationalism, in their mind, they would be trashing the sacrifice their ancestors made.

It is so easy to brush all this off because the western media does not cover it and when it does it simply whitewashes it under a banner of "Russian propaganda." We ought not hold the people in the east with contempt just because they don't think like those in the west. I see it as a shame because in their opposition to neo-Nazis they turn to communism, for that is all they have really ever known. Yet I think we forget that it is us in the west who, in many ways, PUSH them to such ideals.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#17
Rachel...

I am sorry you take offense to what I have posted and blow it all off.

There are no good guys and due to this none of us should take sides. Rather we ought to be honest about the entire conflict and see it for what it is.

I am no fan of Russia, yet I don't let that blind me to the crimes of the west. We live in a wicked world full of wicked people. There is deception everywhere and we ought to be opposed to evil no matter where it sits.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#18
As for the ceasefire and Debaltseve, the ongoing hostilities were inevitable.

Kiev refused to admit that their forces were surrounded and thus refused to deal with the Debaltseve issue in Minx because according to them there was no issue. They were pretending that Debaltseve was part of their front line when in fact it wasn't. Their forces were encircled and cut off completely.

The L/DPR were very clear well before the ceasefire took effect that Debaltseve would be an internal issue and that they would not let the UAF leave with their weapons. It wasn't hidden at all.

When the ceasefire was meant to come into force the UAF continued to try and break the lid of the pocket, there never was a ceasefire there to be broken. We need to be real about it, not pick and choose selective details which fit an agenda.

Poroshenko turned the disorganized retreat from the area into a PR victory and claimed that 80% of the forces were withdrawn safely with their equipment and that only 8 soldiers were killed. A bold faced lie when there is plenty of video showing at least hundreds killed there, although most probably in excess of a thousand in reality. DPR figures on the casualties estimate about 1500-2000 killed on the UAF side the Debaltseve engagement with about 500 NAF killed.

I remember watching videos (albeit propaganda) by the DPR calling for the surrender of the surrounded UAF in the area. Graham Philips (British Journalist) in interviews with captured UAF POWs reveals that many of them did not even know they were encircled and some state that their commanding officers fled. There is also reports of the use of "barrier squads" by he UAF which prevent front line conscripts from retreating.

The fact is NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE TO HAPPEN if the western media was honest. If the neo-Nazism was condemned and the Ukrainian support of it became unpopular in the west then they would have to do something to address the issue. The fact is they won't because the neo-Nazi idealogy and the out of control Ukrainian nationalism is serving a greater geopolitical agenda. It is not really any different to how the U.S. supported the Mujhadeen against the Soviets or the terrorists in both Libya and Syria. Utter hypocrisy and evil.

Yet for Russia to be the villain here everything they say has to be written off and dismissed. That is so foolish.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#19
I might as well post this for people who think I am just blowing smoke because what I say conflicts with the status quo view.

Check the results of these Gallup polls which were conducted BEFORE and DURING this current crisis.

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/2014/06/Ukraine-slide-deck.pdf

http://www.iri.org/sites/default/fi...f Crimean Public Opinion, May 16-30, 2013.pdf

The western media will NEVER do a focus report on those results because they conflict with the western propaganda view. We all so easily dismiss the opinions of the people who actually live in the Donbass region as well as in Crimea as being meaningless. What utter arrogance.

The U.S. will reap what it sows just like ancient Israel did and I don't expect many here in the U.S. (where I live) will see it coming.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#20
I might as well post this for people who think I am just blowing smoke because what I say conflicts with the status quo view.

Check the results of these Gallup polls which were conducted BEFORE and DURING this current crisis.

http://www.bbg.gov/wp-content/media/2014/06/Ukraine-slide-deck.pdf

http://www.iri.org/sites/default/fi...f Crimean Public Opinion, May 16-30, 2013.pdf
Epic fail, Skin. The first is a Gallup survey of news viewing habits of the average Ukrainian both nationwide and specifically in the Crimea. Nothing about political viewpoint of any consequence.

The second is a survey of sociopolitical attitudes of the average Ukrainian and they read very much like a survey of U.S. voters. In Crimea, the top issues were unemployment (68%), price controls (50%), low industrial output, tied with concern for government corruption (both 37%), and welfare protection for the poor (36%). In Ukraine in general, it was just about the same, though welfare protection was third on their list, and only 21% were concerned about government corruption.

Not surprisingly, most Ukrainians, including those in Crimea, in 2013 -- the date of your second linked survey -- said that Crimea should remain as it was then, an autonomous region within the Ukraine. A third -- and not at all surprisingly, almost all over 50, said it should be either independent, or given back to Russia. That isn't because they like Russia, it is because they are afraid of Russia, even those in Crimea.

Your links prove nothing you've stated. In fact, they aren't even related to your charges of fascism in Ukraine's government.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.