AMERICAN HEALTH CARE ACT

[p_rehbein]

But if it applied to every employer across the country, then they wouldn't be able
to cut staff. They would all have to maintain staffing levels to run the business.
In the UK we also have a manditory minimum wage. Everyone across here said
the minimum wage and new pension idea would cause job losses but it hasn't for
that specific reason.


It makes sense as well to be able to seek insurance from any company, no matter which
state they are in, to open up competition and bring prices down.

Anyway it was just my two pennith worth (that would be two cents)

Actually, there are many ways Employers can get around retaining their current level of employees. Not replacing those who retire or voluntarily resign, or replacing them with robots, or hiring Part Time workers who do not receive benefits the same as Full Time employees.

Sometimes this reduction is necessary for the Employer to just stay in business. The rising costs of Health Care is one of the greatest burdens on Employers, and they simply can not afford to pay the cost. So, they have to reduce their staff, and do the best they can to continue to provide the service they provide to the public.

Even the Government is doing this. When I go to the VA, I check in on a Kiosk. Kiosks have replaced people, and saves the Government/VA money. Now, they do still have real people there, but not nearly as many as they once had, or not nearly enough to provide the quality of service they used to provide.

Minimum wage jobs were never intended to be a life time job. They were designed to be "entry level" positions to allow young people, or people with no experience gain valuable experience that would allow them to advance within whatever Company they are working for. The simple truth is, the higher the minimum wage, the fewer employees most Employers can afford to employ.

 

[mailmandan]

Common sense should tell any of us that NOTHING is going to provide affordable healthcare for everyone.

As long as we continue to have TOO MANY PEOPLE RIDING IN THE CART and NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE PULLING THE CART in this country, that is very true!

 

[RickyZ]

Interesting article in this morning's LA Times, about how those who voted for Trump in rural areas will be the hardest hit by his terrific plan.

 

[RickyZ]

It doesn't work that way here. The UK population is fairly static, whereas here, we have added nearly 100 million to ours in the past 25 years. Your nation has only 60 million or a few more in population.

Here is the thing, there is no right to health care. I'm sorry but life sucks, I'll die for a lack of medical treatment, and I'm fine with it.

The is no right to other people's money, I might be poor for it, but thats my problem, not everyone else's.

This right here is the big problem. What qualifies as 'other people's money'? Does every single penny earned by a corporation become the CEO's money? Do not workers have a vested interest in the corporate profits they worked to produce? Is demanding a living wage really an effort to take other people's money? The more I try to show working class people how they are being taken advantage of by greedy executives, the more I find that those very people will fight to the death for their right to be treated like slaves.

You say there is no right to other people's money. I say there is no right to reap the fruit of other people's labor.

 

[maxwel]

This right here is the big problem. What qualifies as 'other people's money'? Does every single penny earned by a corporation become the CEO's money? Do not workers have a vested interest in the corporate profits they worked to produce? Is demanding a living wage really an effort to take other people's money? The more I try to show working class people how they are being taken advantage of by greedy executives, the more I find that those very people will fight to the death for their right to be treated like slaves.

You say there is no right to other people's money. I say there is no right to reap the fruit of other people's labor.

No.

NO they do not.

When I give someone a job... he isn't magically owed some degree of "ownership" in my company.

When I give someone a job... he isn't magically owed some special power to direct company decisions.

When I give someone a job... I am not "taking advantage" of him... I'm GIVING HIM AN INCOME.


Giving someone a job, so they can support their family, IS NOT HARMING THEM... IT'S SUPPORTING THEM!

IF WORKERS WANT OWNERSHIP OF A COMPANY, THEY CAN START THEIR OWN... NOT TRY TO TAKE MINE.

THEY ARE FREE TO START THEIR OWN COMPANY.

If they ever feel "taken advantage of"... they are free to leave.



Ricky, you're a nice guy, but you've read too much Carl Marx.
His theories are bogus, disproven, unethical, and they've produced nothing but suffering and destruction.
The man never even held a job, he just welshed off other people his whole life... like a parasite.

 

[RickyZ]

You start a company. You hire workers to produce corporate income. Those workers have no right to a share of the income they produce for you. You have a right to all of the fruit of their labor. Even tho without their labor you would have no income.

Yeppers. You've read too much Ronald Reagan.

Like I said, people will fight to the death - and these days it's often a literal death - for their right to treat and be treated like slaves.

 

[RickyZ]

James 5:1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.








Keep in mind, these are GOD'S words, not mine. Any argument you have with them is with God, not me.

 

[Tommy379]

This right here is the big problem. What qualifies as 'other people's money'? Does every single penny earned by a corporation become the CEO's money? Do not workers have a vested interest in the corporate profits they worked to produce? Is demanding a living wage really an effort to take other people's money? The more I try to show working class people how they are being taken advantage of by greedy executives, the more I find that those very people will fight to the death for their right to be treated like slaves.

You say there is no right to other people's money. I say there is no right to reap the fruit of other people's labor.

CEOs are generally an employee of a corporation.

Every single penny earned belongs to the shareholders or sole proprietor of said corporation.

The only interest an employee may have in a corporation is as far as they may own a share of it. That relationship would be far different than what others have.

Maxwel is right and rickyz needs to get back to the drum circle.

 

[Sirk]

You start a company. You hire workers to produce corporate income. Those workers have no right to a share of the income they produce for you. You have a right to all of the fruit of their labor. Even tho without their labor you would have no income.

Yeppers. You've read too much Ronald Reagan.

Like I said, people will fight to the death - and these days it's often a literal death - for their right to treat and be treated like slaves.

Do you own a business? Any employee I have has the right to go somewhere else. It's bad enough all the govt crap I gotta deal with. And they get paid what they agreed to get paid for the services they provide. My risk...my gain or loss. If my business goes bankrupt you think those same employees who want all the benefit with no risk are gonna stand by my side in bankruptcy court? Maybe even chip in some to help bail me out? Lol

 

[maxwel]

Marxism... really?


I get so sick of hearing this disproven Marxist rubbish about how all employees are an inherently abused class.

I got so sick of this Marxist rubbish about employees being "taken advantage of" and business owners being abusers.


What utter rubbish.


1. Most people are not capable of starting or running a business... they simply don't have the skills.


2. Therefore, if you start a company, and give people jobs, you're providing them with something THEY CAN NEVER DO ON THEIR OWN.


3. If it weren't for the people with the skills to START companies... the rest of the people COULDN'T EARN A LIVING.


4. Providing a job for a person, and giving him an income, is a GOOD THING... it's not some kind of abuse.


5. It is a LOT OF TROUBLE, and HEADACHE, and DIFFICULTY, to HIRE & MANAGE OTHERS... if it didn't increase profit... WE'D STOP DOING IT!

- There is no INCENTIVE to hire others, if it doesn't increase profits.
- Hiring, training, managing, and maintaining others is a HUGE HUGE HUGE HEADACHE.
- If it didn't increase profits... NOBODY WOULD DO IT.


6. THEREFORE, contingent on #5, it is NECESSARY for employees to CREATE A PROFIT FOR THE COMPANY.

If employees could not create a profit for the company.... there would be no reason to deal with all the bull-rap of even hiring and managing them.

Locating, screening, hiring, managing, training, maintaining, and babysitting people... THIS IS NOT FUN... THIS IS VERY DIFFICULT, PAINFUL, and TIME CONSUMING!


7. THEREFORE, contingent on #5 and #6... it is JUST, REASONABLE, and NECESSARY for a company to make a profit off it's employees.

If the employees could not make a profit for the company... there would be NO REASON to deal with all the VAST HEADACHES of hiring and managing them.


8. Marxism is very selfish and one-sided.... in this system, only ONE SIDE is allowed to profit.

A. The employees are supposed to make a profit off the company... that is GOOD and EXPECTED.
B. the company CANNOT make a profit off the employee... that is BAD and EVIL.
C. One side is allowed to profit, and the other side is NOT.

* There is no fairness, or equity, in Marxism.

* In fact, Marxism is SO UNFAIR, they actually believe in STEALING the companies AWAY from the people who own them... they believe in actual theft.


9. In capitalism, BOTH SIDES are allowed to profit...both the company and the employee.

A. The employee gets to have a job, and profits from his wage paid by the company.
B. The company gets increased profit from having the employee... and gets to profit from hiring him.
C. In this system... everybody wins... everybody gets to have profit and increase.

10. What if an employee is treated unfairly?

A. If his wage isn't good, he can negotiate, or go elsewhere.
B. If he isn't treated well, he can negotiate, or go elsewhere.
C. If he is ACTUALLY ABUSED in some way, we have LAWS for that, and HE CAN FILE SUIT.


11. We have LAWS which protect employees from abuse.


12. Will abuse still happen, even with these laws?

- Of course abuse will occur in a fallen world, with or without laws.
- Mankind is fallen... some employers will try to abuse their employees... but some employees also try to abuse their employers.

- I've had plenty of employees LIE about their work hours, LIE about the work they did, LIE about stealing company property.

- I've had plenty of employees, LIE, STEAL, and ABUSE my good nature... no matter how well I've treated them.

ABUSE GOES BOTH WAYS... we can never get rid of it completely in a fallen world.

SIN IS PART OF THE WORLD WE LIVE IN... THERE IS NO WORKER'S UTOPIA... JUST LIKE THERE IS NO BOSS'S UTOPIA.


13. The fact that capitalism is NOT PERFECT, and fails to solve ALL MAN'S SINS... does NOT MEAN COMMUNISM MUST BE BETTER.

A. It is a ridiculous assumption to think that because capitalism is imperfect, that communist must be better.
B. That's utterly ridiculous.
C. HISTORY HAS PROVEN that capitalism, though imperfect, creates jobs and builds civilization... while communism does nothing but destroy.


I haven't even begun to tear into the core tenets of communism yet,
and show, point by point, how it's clearly illogical, nonfactual,
and AGAINST the clear teachings of scripture,
but I CAN....
if you really want to go there.

 

[RickyZ]

It astounds me how far satan has sown greed into the deepest parts of even the elect.

 

[RickyZ]

Scripture modified to fit the me me me generation

 

[Sirk]

It astounds me how far satan has sown greed into the deepest parts of even the elect.

Greed? What it sounds like to me is that you would make a terrible employee and it's sad how there are covetous hearts among the elect.

 

[RickyZ]

Greed? What it sounds like to me is that you would make a terrible employee and it's sad how there are covetous hearts among the elect.

Actually I raised the bar on work ethic for my employer. Really pissed off the lazy and unfruitful that surrounded me.

 

[RickyZ]

Anyway, your argument is with God not me.

1 Timothy 6:10For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing forit have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

1 Timothy 3:3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the loveof money.

Matthew 6:24No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love theother, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve Godand wealth.

Luke 16:No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love theother, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannotserve God and wealth

Matthew 4:9-10and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall downand worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it iswritten, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

James 4:4You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostilitytoward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himselfan enemy of God.

Matthew 13:22And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hearsthe word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke theword, and it becomes unfruitful.

Mark 4:19but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desiresfor other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.

Luke 8:14The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and asthey go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures ofthis life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Matthew 19:21-22Jesussaid to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions andgive to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, followMe." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving;for he was one who owned much property.

Mark 10:21-22Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing youlack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will havetreasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But at these words he wassaddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

Luke 18:22-23When Jesus heard this, He said to him, "One thing you still lack; sell allthat you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure inheaven; and come, follow Me." But when he had heard these things, hebecame very sad, for he was extremely rich.

1 Timothy 6:17Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fixtheir hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies uswith all things to enjoy.

Job 31:24-28If I have put my confidence in gold, And called fine gold my trust, If I havegloated because my wealth was great, And because my hand had secured so much;If I have looked at the sun when it shone or the moon going in splendor, And myheart became secretly enticed, And my hand threw a kiss from my mouth, That toowould have been an iniquity calling for judgment, For I would have denied Godabove.

Psalm 52:6-7The righteous will see and fear, And will laugh at him, saying, "Behold,the man who would not make God his refuge, But trusted in the abundance of hisriches And was strong in his evil desire."

Proverbs 11:28He who trusts in his riches will fall, But the righteous will flourish like thegreen leaf.

Jeremiah 49:4How boastful you are about the valleys! Your valley is flowing away, Obacksliding daughter who trusts in her treasures, saying, 'Who will comeagainst me?'

Ezekiel 28:5 By your great wisdom, by your trade You haveincreased your riches And your heart is lifted up because of your riches

Psalm 62:10Do not trust in oppression and do not vainly hope in robbery; If richesincrease, do not set your heart upon them.

Proverbs 18:23The poor man utters supplications, But the rich man answers roughly.

Proverbs 28:11The rich man is wise in his own eyes, But the poor who has understanding seesthrough him.

Job 20:17-20He does not look at the streams, The rivers flowing with honey and curds. Hereturns what he has attained And cannot swallow it; As to the riches of histrading, He cannot even enjoy them. For he has oppressed and forsaken the poor;He has seized a house which he has not built. Because he knew no quiet withinhim, He does not retain anything he desires.

Proverbs 15:6Great wealth is in the house of the righteous, But trouble is in the income ofthe wicked.

Proverbs 30:8-9Keep deception and lies far from me, give me neither poverty nor riches; Feedme with the food that is my portion, That I not be full and deny You and say,"Who is the LORD?" Or that I not be in want and steal, And profanethe name of my God.

Deuteronomy 32:15 Jeshurun grew fat and kicked; filledwith food, they became heavy and sleek. They abandoned the God who made themand rejected the Rock their Savior.
Nehemiah 9:25-26They captured fortified cities and a fertile land They took possession ofhouses full of every good thing, Hewn cisterns, vineyards, olive groves, Fruittrees in abundance So they ate, were filled and grew fat, And reveled in Yourgreat goodness. "But they became disobedient and rebelled against You, Andcast Your law behind their backs And killed Your prophets who had admonishedthem So that they might return to You, And they committed great blasphemies.

Hosea 13:6As they had their pasture, they became satisfied, And being satisfied, theirheart became proud; Therefore they forgot Me.

Proverbs 23:4Do not weary yourself to gain wealth, Cease from your consideration of it.

Haggai 1:3-5Then the word of the LORD came by Haggai the prophet, saying, "Is it timefor you yourselves to dwell in your paneled houses while this house liesdesolate?" Now therefore, thus says the LORD of hosts, "Consider yourways!

Luke 16:19-21Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen,joyously living in splendor every day. Anda poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longingto be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table;besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores … 25But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received yourgood things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted hereand you are in agony

1 Timothy 6:8-9If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content. But those whowant to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmfuldesires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.

Leviticus 19:13You shall not oppress your neighbor, nor rob him. The wages of a hired man arenot to remain with you all night until morning.

 

[RickyZ]

Deuteronomy 24:12-15 If he is a poor man, you shall not sleep with his pledge.When the sun goes down you shall surely return the pledge to him, that he may sleep in his cloak and bless you; and it will be righteousness for you before the LORD your God. You shall not oppress a hired servant who is poor and needy, whether he is one of your countrymen or one of your aliens who is in your land in your towns.

Proverbs 22:16 He who oppresses the poor to make more for himself or who gives to the rich, will only come to poverty.

Isaiah 1:23 Your rulers are rebels And companions of thieves; Everyone loves a bribe And chases after rewards. They do not defend the orphan, Nor does the widow's plea come before them.

Jeremiah 22:13 Woe to him who builds his house without righteousness And his upper rooms without justice, Who uses his neighbor's services without pay And does not give him his wages,

Micah 6:12 For the rich men of the city are full of violence, Her residents speak lies, And their tongue is deceitful in their mouth.

Malachi 3:5 Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the LORD of hosts.

James 2:6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

James 5:4 Behold, the pay off the laborers who mowed your fields, and which has been withheld by you, cries out against you; and the outcry of those who did the harvesting has reached the ears of the Lord of Sabbath.

Job 31:24, 25, 28 If I have put my confidence in gold, And called fine gold my trust, If I have gloated because my wealth was great, And because my hand had secured so much; ... That too would have been an iniquity calling for judgment, For I would have denied God above.

Psalm 52:7 Behold,the man who would not make God his refuge, But trusted in the abundance of his riches And was strong in his evil desire."

Proverbs 18:11 A rich man’s wealth is his strong city, And like a high wall in his own imagination.
Luke 6:20 “Blessed are you who are poor,for yours is the kingdom of God.21Blessed are you who hunger now,for you will be satisfied.Blessed are you who weep now,for you will laugh.22Blessed are you when people hate you,when they exclude you and insult youand reject your name as evil,because of the Son of Man.23“Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets. 24“But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort. 25Woe to you who are well fed now, for you will go hungry. Woe to you who laugh now, for you will mourn and weep. 26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.

Luke 12:13-21 [SUP]13 [/SUP]Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”[SUP]14 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]“Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ [SUP]20 [/SUP]“But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ [SUP]21 [/SUP]“This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

James 5:1Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming on you. 2Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days. 4Look! The wages you failed to pay the workers who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty. 5You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter. 6You have condemned and murdered the innocent one, who was not opposing you.

 

[Sirk]

Actually I raised the bar on work ethic for my employer. Really pissed off the lazy and unfruitful that surrounded me.

Well that's great...but you just proved us right. The lazy and unfit were all around you. And yet you advocate for employers to coddle them and pay them more than they are worth. Lol

 

[RickyZ]

Do you know who Frank Gehry is? The arguments made here remind me of his work. LOL

Again, your argument is with God not me.

'Nuff said.

 

[maxwel]

You start a company. You hire workers to produce corporate income. Those workers have no right to a share of the income they produce for you. You have a right to all of the fruit of their labor. Even tho without their labor you would have no income.

Yeppers. You've read too much Ronald Reagan.

Like I said, people will fight to the death - and these days it's often a literal death - for their right to treat and be treated like slaves.

There is something called a contract.

This is from the bible.

People make an agreement, and each keeps to his word.

I hire someone based on a CONTRACT... we EACH AGREE TO SOMETHING

EMPLOYER AGREES: to pay a certain wage, at certain times, with certain benefits.
EMPLOYEE AGREES: to do certain work, at certain times, for a certain wage.
THERE IS NO ABUSE.
THERE IS A CONTRACT.. A MUTUAL AGREEMENT.

CONTRACTS... AGREEMENTS... those are in the bible.

Why can't the employee get the fruit of his labor?
He does.
It's called his WAGE!
He does get the fruit of his labor.
He does unless you're just too blinded by Marxism to see what's in front of you.
The fruit of his labor is HIS WAGE... THE WAGE HE WILLINGLY AGREED TO.
HE DOES GET the fruit of his labor.
He works, at a company he didn't have skills to create... and he is paid a wage.
He works, and he reaps reward for his work.

This isn't complicated unless you're blinded by Marxism.

You work, and you get paid for your work.

I don't know ANYTHING which is simpler than that.

 

[maxwel]

Good grief Ricky...

you actually believe giving a man a job is "oppressing the poor?"

Seriously?



I'd debate but this is just too ridiculous to even continue.