Legalize the Right to Pursue Happiness

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Utah

Banned
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#41
Jesus is Lord, He is everything.

But can we force everyone else to live by this?
If you loved God and neighbor you'd find a solution.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#42
Suck her brains outs. No harm, no foul.
.
OK, I set the hook, now I'll reel him in,

Oh look, it's a big mouth bass,

Wait, I mean large mouth bass,

No, I mean big mouth bass!
 

sharkwhales

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2016
280
25
28
#43
.

Freedom, is being able to do want you want, as long as you don't interfere with someones else's rights.

--

People have always tried to push their "religion" on other people, I guess it's always been that way.

And pushing the illegal morality issues gets them lots of votes, they say, "I'm a Christian vote for me", and people do.

--

People have the right to be immoral, and pursue their happiness, as long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.
Generally speaking, what you say is true. But you are only seeing one side of it. People always have certain values, and they express these values in their beliefs and actions, and that expression always effects others.

Modern western ethics, and sometimes even our ideas of freedom, often express new values that place the self as high as possible. 'Individualism'. People can say "I'll let you do what you want, vote for me" and people do. It is a kind of humanism, because it's a belief system that centers on humans, and humanism acts as much like a religion as anything else.

The problem with this new set of beliefs is that it is not honest about itself being a set of beliefs. Humanism does not see itself as a religion but as Truth, and attempts to make itself truth through science, media, entertainment. Once it is accepted as truth, it creates laws that oppress those who disagree.

In a religiously free society, no private beliefs should be agreed with or disagreed with by the gov't. The gov't shouldn't be telling people 'that belief system is right' or 'wrong'. It shouldn't be telling Atheists 'God is real' by posting the ten commandments in courtrooms. It shouldn't be telling Christians 'homosexuality is good' by licensing gay marriage.

It is true that what consenting adults do together should be between them and God, not between them and a religious institution. But let's look at both sides to understand where beliefs are being pushed. The original reason marriage was licensed was to basically pay people to have more kids after WW2... in case there was another war, probably. That law was gov't stepping into people's personal lives and morally validating childbearing -- but people didn't complain because even if it was wrongful use of gov't, it was more money for them. Now the same law is used to validate homosexuality. By extension, this is used to strengthen a new culture where truth is whatever the individual defines, and there are no cultural norms because the individual is above all culture. That is humanism exerting itself in law. Its believers are so firm in their belief that they can't question it enough to see it as a belief. Even some Christians are swept up in this.

By all means people should be able to live their private lives with their private beliefs, but if their private beliefs require laws saying 'this belief is good, that belief is bad', they have stepped into the arena of stamping out other belief systems. They have stepped away from true religious freedom, in part because they can't empathize with whichever side they disagree with.

As for drugs that's a simpler matter -- if the drug causes enough people to lose control of themselves, it's not a personal matter, it's a public safety matter. Pot may not be a huge public safety risk, but some hard drugs are. But again, to see the balance, you have to see that the individual is not above everything. If you are blind to one set of beliefs, you won't be able to prevent it from being pushed on people; you yourself might even push it without realizing it.

Fortunately, God is bigger and God's grace and mercy abounds.
 
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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#44
Generally speaking, what you say is true. But you are only seeing one side of it. People always have certain values, and they express these values in their beliefs and actions, and that expression always effects others.

Modern western ethics, and sometimes even our ideas of freedom, often express new values that place the self as high as possible. 'Individualism'. People can say "I'll let you do what you want, vote for me" and people do. It is a kind of humanism, because it's a belief system that centers on humans, and humanism acts as much like a religion as anything else.

The problem with this new set of beliefs is that it is not honest about itself being a set of beliefs. Humanism does not see itself as a religion but as Truth, and attempts to make itself truth through science, media, entertainment. Once it is accepted as truth, it creates laws that oppress those who disagree.

In a religiously free society, no private beliefs should be agreed with or disagreed with by the gov't. The gov't shouldn't be telling people 'that belief system is right' or 'wrong'. It shouldn't be telling Atheists 'God is real' by posting the ten commandments in courtrooms. It shouldn't be telling Christians 'homosexuality is good' by licensing gay marriage.

It is true that what consenting adults do together should be between them and God, not between them and a religious institution. But let's look at both sides to understand where beliefs are being pushed. The original reason marriage was licensed was to basically pay people to have more kids after WW2... in case there was another war, probably. That law was gov't stepping into people's personal lives and morally validating childbearing -- but people didn't complain because even if it was wrongful use of gov't, it was more money for them. Now the same law is used to validate homosexuality. By extension, this is used to strengthen a new culture where truth is whatever the individual defines, and there are no cultural norms because the individual is above all culture. That is humanism exerting itself in law. Its believers are so firm in their belief that they can't question it enough to see it as a belief. Even some Christians are swept up in this.

By all means people should be able to live their private lives with their private beliefs, but if their private beliefs require laws saying 'this belief is good, that belief is bad', they have stepped into the arena of stamping out other belief systems. They have stepped away from true religious freedom, in part because they can't empathize with whichever side they disagree with.

As for drugs that's a simpler matter -- if the drug causes enough people to lose control of themselves, it's not a personal matter, it's a public safety matter. Pot may not be a huge public safety risk, but some hard drugs are. But again, to see the balance, you have to see that the individual is not above everything. If you are blind to one set of beliefs, you won't be able to prevent it from being pushed on people; you yourself might even push it without realizing it.

Fortunately, God is bigger and God's grace and mercy abounds.

I think that most things just come down to having the proper respect for others.

A "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", kind of thing.

But not everyone understands this.

--

If an act is criminal, infringing on the rights of others, then laws are applicable.

If only immoral, then that is a matter religion, and should not be subject to civil law enforcement.

--

I pray that we will always be free to assemble and preach the gospel,

But if the government takes away the right to walk/march down the street as a group,

Then Christians will not be able to walk/march down the street preaching the gospel to the lost.

Many states are considering this.

For many of these politicians, it's a matter of holding on to power and controlling people, rather than serving the public welfare. Public servant, promote the general welfare of the people? I read that somewhere......
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,312
1,039
113
#45
We have secular laws to prevent religious persecution. That's why we don't burn witches at the stake anymore
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#46
We have secular laws to prevent religious persecution. That's why we don't burn witches at the stake anymore
We don't burn witches,

But we do jail for years, fine, and prosecute people who are only immoral according to some people's version of Christianity and the Bible.

In some other nations, they still kill them for being immoral.
 

Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
12,312
1,039
113
#47
We don't burn witches,

But we do jail for years, fine, and prosecute people who are only immoral according to some people's version of Christianity and the Bible.

In some other nations, they still kill them for being immoral.
yep... in some countries homosexuality is punished by Death
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,720
829
113
44
#48
Here is the way I have come to understand it so far, there is what we think is right, and what we "want" or "feel" is right, but there is only one way God created us to be. We were created with a specific design, the further we get from that design, the faster things start falling apart. On the flip side the closer we grow to God, the more He opens our eyes and understanding, the more we see these "rules" are not to burden us, they are not to stifle fun, they are all for good whether we see why or not, they also lead to life and true peace.

We can squabble all day about how we feel, about our opinions, but the Truth is we have to let God be God, and we must understand the fact that everything from God is good, and the closer we draw to Him and submit our will His, as Jesus demonstrated for us, the more we can see why these things are so, and how they all fit together flawlessly. God is God no matter what parts of His design you like or not, and it has been my experience that the more I learn about Him, the more He draws me in and strengthens me through His Holy Spirit, the more I submit my will to His, I see and understand the magnificence and pure goodness of His essence, and get the smallest taste of what a truly and awesomely GOOD God we have.
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#50
But we do jail for years, fine, and prosecute people who are only immoral according to some people's version of Christianity and the Bible.
Give specifics, including names.
 
Mar 21, 2017
329
7
0
#52
People have the right to be immoral, and pursue their happiness, as long asit doesn't interfere with the rights of others.
I'm not convinced sin, immorality, whether committed in secret or out inthe open, does not interfere with the rights of others.

Termites. Not until the discovery of the damage they've caused is the infestation realized. All the time, they've been plowing and eatingat the wood. Sin is like that. It can't be contained.

Sin and its consequences are like an airborne disease, it spreads easily and rapidly.

"My mom and dad smoke weed every night. Want some?"
Homosexuals practice their abominations in privacy. They given us school textbooks that present same sex marriage as if it were parallel and equal to the strength and to the purity and beauty of a heterosexual marriage.


Numerous abominations were at one time, frowned down upon. Those found guilty were shunned, ostracized, in some cases by their family and entire communities. Some were put to death.


The days of stoning the adulteress.

Unfortunately, however, they’ve become the days of yielding to sin. Glamorize it. Cheer it on.

That’s the way it is, and you can’t say it ain’t so.


As for me and my house, we will continue to serve the Lord. We will continue to pray. We will continue to teach the truth. And we will support candidates whose ideas and values do actually contain value.

What I won’t allow. I won’t allow myself or my family to be deceived. I won’t be fooled into believing that immorality and sin can be contained. And I won’t allow a lowering of the standard (the bible) of morality, not even on the claim: I have the right.
[SUB][/SUB]


 
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Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#53
.

Bill Clinton.........Not jailed but persecuted
For sure; the National Organization of Women really persecuted Bill for cheating on his wife and taking advantage of a college intern. Try again.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#54
People have the right to be immoral, and pursue their happiness, as long asit doesn't interfere with the rights of others.
I'm not convinced sin, immorality, whether committed in secret or out inthe open, does not interfere with the rights of others.

Termites. Not until the discovery of the damage they've caused is the infestation realized. All the time, they've been plowing and eatingat the wood. Sin is like that. It can't be contained.

Sin and its consequences are like an airborne disease, it spreads easily and rapidly.

"My mom and dad smoke weed every night. Want some?"
Homosexuals practice their abominations in privacy. They given us school textbooks that present same sex marriage as if it were parallel and equal to the strength and to the purity and beauty of a heterosexual marriage.


Numerous abominations were at one time, frowned down upon. Those found guilty were shunned, ostracized, in some cases by their family and entire communities. Some were put to death.


The days of stoning the adulteress.

Unfortunately, however, they’ve become the days of yielding to sin. Glamorize it. Cheer it on.

That’s the way it is, and you can’t say it ain’t so.


As for me and my house, we will continue to serve the Lord. We will continue to pray. We will continue to teach the truth. And we will support candidates whose ideas and values do actually contain value.

What I won’t allow. I won’t allow myself or my family to be deceived. I won’t be fooled into believing that immorality and sin can be contained. And I won’t allow a lowering of the standard (the bible) of morality, not even on the claim: I have the right.



Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#56
For sure; the National Organization of Women really persecuted Bill for cheating on his wife and taking advantage of a college intern. Try again.
But not saint Trump, the molester of women, who became President with the support of Christians.
 

Rachel20

Senior Member
May 7, 2013
1,639
105
63
#58
Brilliant OP.

You hit the nail on the head. Forcing one's religion and religious belief by way of majority has always been an act of control exercised in different forms. [including swaying voters with a political agenda that appeals to religion]

PS - Yes, this reflects what happens in India.



Jesus is Lord, He is everything.

But can we force everyone else to live by this?

I mean if Christians can pass their morality by law on others by vote, because they happen to be in the majority in that place, city or state,

What will stop others from passing their own religious laws on Christians?

Like making the possession or eating of pork products illegal?

Or beef products, or any meat at all?

Maybe one person believes that the Bible teaches that pork is bad, the other believes that the Bible says it's OK,

Should it be decided by vote and made law? No eating meat? Prison time? Death? (India).
 
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abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#59
How do you know Trump molests women? Do you have proof?

He admitted it, and bragged about it on the bus.

----

Christian women said, this is the molester that we should make president.
 
Mar 21, 2017
329
7
0
#60
But not saint Trump, the molester of women, who became President with the support of Christians.
Bill Clinton and Hussein became president with the support of liberals.