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Thread: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

  1. #1
    Senior Member Billyd's Avatar
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    Default 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    What are the Dutch people doing right?

    They are actually closing prisons, and finding some interesting uses for them.

    Life behind bars gets new twist in empty Dutch prisons
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    In Norway, where I'm currently living, the prisons are so packed that they are sending inmates to Holland. I guess that's how the Dutch are using their prisons now.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    North Georgia has been in the news for over crowded jails. A lot of the inmates have drug charges. What's legal for the Dutch that isn't legal here? Marijuana? And there's a meth epidemic.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by grif101 View Post
    North Georgia has been in the news for over crowded jails. A lot of the inmates have drug charges. What's legal for the Dutch that isn't legal here? Marijuana? And there's a meth epidemic.
    The Netherlands legalized marijuana years ago. At first, even hard drugs were legal but they made them illegal again because they caused a lot of problems, but they kept pot legal.

    But if you read the article it says the reason for the drop in crime is most likely because judges aren't sentencing people to prison. They're sentencing them in other ways.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by zeroturbulence View Post
    The Netherlands legalized marijuana years ago. At first, even hard drugs were legal but they made them illegal again because they caused a lot of problems, but they kept pot legal.

    But if you read the article it says the reason for the drop in crime is most likely because judges aren't sentencing people to prison. They're sentencing them in other ways.
    That's not a bad idea.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    An old law professor of mine said we should go back to public flogging.

    Quote Originally Posted by grif101 View Post
    That's not a bad idea.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    An old law professor of mine said we should go back to public flogging.
    Well, there's always the caugth red handed flogging which is carried out all over East Texas at least. But, of course, there's no judge or law enforcement involved at that point, and the public part needs some improvement.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    An old law professor of mine said we should go back to public flogging.
    Oh my goodness! I don't think we should go quite that far back, LOL.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    An old law professor of mine said we should go back to public flogging.
    They do that already in Singapore. It's called caning.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Susanna View Post
    Well, there's always the caugth red handed flogging which is carried out all over East Texas at least. But, of course, there's no judge or law enforcement involved at that point, and the public part needs some improvement.
    Ummm..... that's kind of scary. No judge, jury, or trial. Just a flogging determined by whoever says so?
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    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    It would be nice if there could be a reduction in the actual crime rate rather than merely in the 'sentenced to prison' rate. Prison, while perhaps originally intended to be rehabilitative, rarely is. The overcrowding suggests a need for other forms of sentences. Personally I'd be interested to see more options for limitation on freedom than merely prison, which requires ridiculous amounts of resources.

    Fines, community service, work farms, and a few other forms might reduce the prison population in the future, but might require additional resources in the short term. They might also require some stricter controls on who is eligible for social benefits. There are no easy answers. Almost any form of consequence limits the convict's financial prospects, which in turn leads either to reliance on handouts, or theft. Although I wouldn't advocate for it now, I can see why the OT law makes sense. Dead people cost the society very little, and aren't likely to re-offend.

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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Why not? Punishment, by it's very nature has to be unpleasant.

    Honestly, I think flogging is more humane than sending someone to prison at present. Flogging doesn't come with a 15% chance of HIV transmission and almost a near certainty of getting raped if you're not built like Halfdan Whiteshirt.

    Quote Originally Posted by grif101 View Post
    Oh my goodness! I don't think we should go quite that far back, LOL.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    Why not? Punishment, by it's very nature has to be unpleasant.

    Honestly, I think flogging is more humane than sending someone to prison at present. Flogging doesn't come with a 15% chance of HIV transmission and almost a near certainty of getting raped if you're not built like Halfdan Whiteshirt.
    No, I'd vote no.

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    Senior Member Desdichado's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    What would you advocate?

    I think common sense tells us reform has to be two fold.

    1. Make the opportunity cost of committing a crime swifter and greater. Death, flogging, stockades, etc.

    2. If a crime is deemed unworthy of capital punishment (I think the majority of us agree that most crime is in this category) and that the punishment administered by the state fits the crime, then assimilation back into society must be made both easier and more fair.

    The particulars I would have to leave to minds greater and more experienced than my own. I just know the system we have now is due for reform along the lines of transcendent principle and historical experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino246 View Post
    Almost any form of consequence limits the convict's financial prospects, which in turn leads either to reliance on handouts, or theft. Although I wouldn't advocate for it now, I can see why the OT law makes sense. Dead people cost the society very little, and aren't likely to re-offend.
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    Senior Member Desdichado's Avatar
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Then at least give me a viable alternative if you find both propositions unjust.

    Justice demands that crimes be punished. Justice is harsh to varying degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by grif101 View Post
    No, I'd vote no.
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    Then at least give me a viable alternative if you find both propositions unjust.

    Justice demands that crimes be punished. Justice is harsh to varying degrees.
    I don't have an answer. As you said, the system we have now is due for reform. I agree. If I had a good alternative to locking people up for a few weeks/months/years, and letting them out to do it all over again, as is the case much of the time, or an alternative to community service, which doesn't seem to do the trick, I'd present it here.

    I work in government. I've seen people come and go. And a lot come back. I WILL tell you what is already in place that makes more of a difference than anything I've seen: Suspended drivers license. Fines get ignored, you lose your license. Those people call pretty quick usually. If that law wasn't in place, the fines would continue to be ignored. Doesn't work for everyone, but most I've seen, it does.

    Now, that doesn't answer your question, it's just an observance. Sorry, I don't have an answer for what form of punishment would be better than what we already have.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Quote Originally Posted by Desdichado View Post
    Then at least give me a viable alternative if you find both propositions unjust.

    Justice demands that crimes be punished. Justice is harsh to varying degrees.
    Desdichado I always love your opinions. I agree but I think first we would have to return America to its original state and rule where non violent crimes were not of any effect. Of course we would have to work out something to have people obey traffic laws if not what is already in place. But also I think this course would be imperative along with an overthrow of the current rule to establish the trust, loyalty, and patriotism in the American middle and young generation. When they understand they are free and find a nationalist or at least a transparent nation that stands behind them, and see that laws are just and put in place to protect them, then they will understand the value of conservation.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 25% Reduction in Crime Rate

    Another thing that always confuses people. In our origin of law, confederate law, transnational law, and nationalist law, and so on where where petty crimes have no place in, were exemplary examples of patriotism and civil support, economic influxes do to supporting the most lucrative industries in the world, and virtually no crime.

    In other words everybody thinks the conservative agenda is fascist and uptight and liberal agenda caters to hippies and people who want to do nothing in life. But in fact its the liberal agenda to take those rights and always was. People think because they want to smoke marijuana they are a liberal and those conservatives might try to enact a 11 o clock curfew for everybody but really its the opposite anybody who is misinformed is a liberal it seems like. Just for the fact they always scream and call conservatives racist fascists but those are all liberal ideas.

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