liberalism as a modern religious movement

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S

Society

Guest
#21
I bothered to read your posts and you actually expressed political and societal views, so whatever.



Maybe by your "rational standards", but these are liberal views. Let me speak more against your "rational standards". When you tell people they can do whatever they want unless it harms others, they harm themselves and this effects those around them. So if you want to enforce, "unless it harms others", you have to tell and influence how people live their lives.

I agree with this.

Do you believe The Bible is the literal word of God and that Jesus Christ is God? I'm not really concerned with your views, I'm just trying to figure out what motivates them and it doesn't seem to be Christianity.

Lol

To which expressed views are you referring to? Do you think people reading this thread can't scroll up?

As soon as someone shifts the topic of conversation, i.e. "what are your religious beliefs", that is basically a concession that you have lost and are trying to divert the conversation.

So, like, whatever.

I didn't call you a liberal in this exchange you are quoting. I was pointing out that it's better to consider people's opinions and views rather than asking them what they identify as. This was clear in my post, so I guess you just want to play
the victim again.



Don't play the victim.

You claim to be a conservative and post extremely liberal views. There is no point in asking someone that lacks self-awareness what term they think describes them. It's better to define them on the opinions and behaviors they express.
 
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pckts

Guest
#22
Lol

To which expressed views are you referring to? Do you think people reading this thread can't scroll up?

As soon as someone shifts the topic of conversation, i.e. "what are your religious beliefs", that is basically a concession that you have lost and are trying to divert the conversation.

So, like, whatever.

I put the expressed views directly under my statement (I quoted you claiming your political party, an expressed political and societal view), and even color coded all of it for you and the people reading this thread.

I do not agree that "it is basically a concession to ask someone their religious beliefs" or "that it's an attempt to divert the conversation". You voiced this opinion as a statement though, so wow I almost took this confidence as a fact.:rolleyes:

What I believe is that if someone on a Christian forum expresses views contrary to Christianity and refuses to answer their religious beliefs by making "clever" attempts to divert the conversation away from the subject, they are not a Christian.


 
S

Society

Guest
#23
Quick note, I am aware the formatting is off in the post above. I timed out before I could fix it.
 
S

Society

Guest
#25

I put the expressed views directly under my statement (I quoted you claiming your political party, an expressed political and societal view), and even color coded all of it for you and the people reading this thread.

I do not agree that "it is basically a concession to ask someone their religious beliefs" or "that it's an attempt to divert the conversation". You voiced this opinion as a statement though, so wow I almost took this confidence as a fact.:rolleyes:

What I believe is that if someone on a Christian forum expresses views contrary to Christianity and refuses to answer their religious beliefs by making "clever" attempts to divert the conversation away from the subject, they are not a Christian.


It is a concession because the subject is my political leanings, not my religious ones.

You see my friend, you are what is wrong with certain segments of U.S. society. You really can't tell the difference between "conservative" ideology and Christian doctrine and see lack of adherence to one as lack of belief. At no point have I ever discussed Christianity on this forum in any context, but because you think I am "a liberal" i.e. not as right wing as you are you make assumptions about my beliefs.

You still haven't quoted my expressed liberal views, just what political party I'm in. Not the same thing, and one would think since my only expressed "view" is I belong to the Conservative party you would think I was a conservative. But as is obvious, you didn't read the thread and commented without knowing what was said. We know this is true because you made comments about things I never posted and merely assumed were there. Now you are trying to save face by making the facts "fit".

I pick up on things like that.

I'm not going to respond to you again unless you point out where I expressed my political views that you are commenting on.
 
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pckts

Guest
#26
You still haven't quoted my expressed liberal views, just what political party I'm in. Not the same thing, and one would think since my only expressed "view" is I belong to the Conservative party you would think I was a conservative. But as is obvious, you didn't read the thread and commented without knowing what was said. We know this is true because you made comments about things I never posted and merely assumed were there. Now you are trying to save face by making the facts "fit".

I pick up on things like that.

I'm not going to respond to you again unless you point out where I expressed my political views that you are commenting on.
Ok, you seem to be confused by color coding. If you refer to post #18, I made your liberal views blue and my statements addressing them blue. I did the same with red, green, and purple. When I highlight something you said in blue, my response in blue is a direct response to whatever is the same color of it, in this case the color was blue.

I will post the blue stuff here in default color to avoid confusion.

I put this part in blue in post #18:
I believe the government has no business telling people how to live or what to do with their bodies unless it harms others.
And my response in the same post was also in blue:

Maybe by your "rational standards", but these are liberal views. Let me speak more against your "rational standards". When you tell people they can do whatever they want unless it harms others, they harm themselves and this effects those around them. So if you want to enforce, "unless it harms others", you have to tell and influence how people live their lives.
So you have accused me of not quoting your expressed liberal views, not reading the thread (commenting without reading your post), and trying to save face by making facts "fit".

It seems you are either very dense or are trying to make the facts "fit" yourself.


It is a concession because the subject is my political leanings, not my religious ones.

You see my friend, you are what is wrong with certain segments of U.S. society. You really can't tell the difference between "conservative" ideology and Christian doctrine and see lack of adherence to one as lack of belief. At no point have I ever discussed Christianity on this forum in any context, but because you think I am "a liberal" i.e. not as right wing as you are you make assumptions about my beliefs.
I want to know what the foundation of your political leanings are, this would be the beliefs they are founded on (spiritual, religious, etc). In this case I want to know if you have any Christian foundations at all on the Christian forum you are expressing these views on. If so, quote me scripture or explain how it ties into Christianity, if not you really have no foundation for your arguments here.

The problem with segments of U.S society isn't being able to tell the difference between conservative, liberal, and christian doctrine. The problem is people like you who do not incorporate Christian doctrine and values into their beliefs and actions. I'm not making assumptions about your beliefs based off of political terms, I am making the assumptions based off of the beliefs themselves.

I also make an assumption when you say "At no point have I ever discussed Christianity on this forum in any context," that you are not a Christian and do not factor these values and beliefs into your own.

I don't care if you are not as "right-wing" as I am, I care if you are attempting to argue morality and right and wrong from the position of an unbeliever.

A third time, do you believe The Bible is the literal word of God and that Jesus Christ is God? I'm not really concerned with your views, I'm just trying to figure out what motivates them and it doesn't seem to be Christianity.
 
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S

Society

Guest
#27
Ok, you seem to be confused by color coding. If you refer to post #18, I made your liberal views blue and my statements addressing them blue. I did the same with red, green, and purple. When I highlight something you said in blue, my response in blue is a direct response to whatever is the same color of it, in this case the color was blue.

I will post the blue stuff here in default color to avoid confusion.

I put this part in blue in post #18:


And my response in the same post was also in blue:



So you have accused me of not quoting your expressed liberal views, not reading the thread (commenting without reading your post), and trying to save face by making facts "fit".

It seems you are either very dense or are trying to make the facts "fit" yourself.




I want to know what the foundation of your political leanings are, this would be the beliefs they are founded on (spiritual, religious, etc). In this case I want to know if you have any Christian foundations at all on the Christian forum you are expressing these views on. If so, quote me scripture or explain how it ties into Christianity, if not you really have no foundation for your arguments here.

The problem with segments of U.S society isn't being able to tell the difference between conservative, liberal, and christian doctrine. The problem is people like you who do not incorporate Christian doctrine and values into their beliefs and actions. I'm not making assumptions about your beliefs based off of political terms, I am making the assumptions based off of the beliefs themselves.

I also make an assumption when you say "At no point have I ever discussed Christianity on this forum in any context," that you are not a Christian and do not factor these values and beliefs into your own.

I don't care if you are not as "right-wing" as I am, I care if you are attempting to argue morality and right and wrong from the position of an unbeliever.
I followed the conversation just fine, I'm just still not seeing the expressed liberal views of which you are referring. Ergo I assume you are merely inferring things that are not actually there. Obviously you just have a bone to pick with me because I called you out on another thread. Move on with your life dude.
 
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pckts

Guest
#28
I followed the conversation just fine, I'm just still not seeing the expressed liberal views of which you are referring. Ergo I assume you are merely inferring things that are not actually there. Obviously you just have a bone to pick with me because I called you out on another thread. Move on with your life dude.
I'm entirely here because on another thread you were just as passive-aggressive/indirect and made the same false claim avoidance tactics on the other thread. I want to expose you to everyone here and make it difficult for you to express your beliefs and opinions that are not founded on Christianity (and if they are you make no attempt to explain this).

I want people to know you are not a Christian too.

When I referred to the liberal views you express in conjunction with your claims to be conservative, this was in our previous interaction on another thread about liberalism. I simply said this to let you know it's pointless if you claim to be something other than an atheist, because your beliefs, views, and opinions say otherwise.

Your lack of bringing up Christianity in any context, and refusal to answer if you were one three times also are evidence you are not a Christian.

You then began playing the victim or fool, and instead of understanding what my point was, made it about you (and an unrelated matter as a diversion tactic) and how assumptions were made about you (and the matter).

If you are upset I am referring to views not made on this thread, I could go get them for you, but only if you ask because I don't feel like doing the extra work. The point of referencing them was for your character and to explain to you we don't care what you identify as, we have to consider your beliefs that say contrary to what you identify as (like if you are conservative/liberal, atheist/Christian).

I'm not going to move on, I'm going to follow your posts and ruin your pseudo-troll mission to argue matters concern Christianity on a Christian forum without a belief in Christianity.





 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,317
2,411
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#29
I didn't call you a liberal in this exchange you are quoting. I was pointing out that it's better to consider people's opinions and views rather than asking them what they identify as. This was clear in my post, so I guess you just want to play the victim again.

If you express beliefs and views that are contrary to Christianity on a Christian forum, people are going to "attack" (challenge) them. Your reaction means you don't know how to discuss an issue, just how to claim all opinions are equally valid after you disagree with one, and retreat because you don't like conflict or being "attacked".

Once more so you don't avoid it, Do you believe The Bible is the literal word of God and that Jesus Christ is God? I'm not really concerned with your views, I'm just trying to figure out what motivates them and it doesn't seem to be Christianity.


Society says clearly in his profile he's not a Christian.

If you're not a Christian, and you're on a Christian website, there are really only 2 reasons to be there:
1. You're sincerely looking for answers, and searching for God.
2. You're entertaining yourself by arguing and disrupting things.

I don't think this is a tough call.
 
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pckts

Guest
#30
Society says clearly in his profile he's not a Christian.

If you're not a Christian, and you're on a Christian website, there are really only 2 reasons to be there:
1. You're sincerely looking for answers, and searching for God.
2. You're entertaining yourself by arguing and disrupting things.

I don't think this is a tough call.
Thanks I either didn't see that or he changed it afterwards.

I don't mind debating with him if he has an unbeliever, but I'd like to actually focus on the debate instead of all the nonsense. He could have simply said it too when asked. I wanted to bring that into the discussion and go from there so it would be productive to the conversation.

When you have a "society" rather than everyone doing whatever they wanted without a governing body, there are rules (it's not anarchy). What you tell the people these rules are based on is the religion. You can't have society without religion, it's impossible.

Christianity is the truth and therefore the best religion and governing rules for the society. There are no alternatives or equals because anything that isn't the truth is a lie and harmful to the creation.

This is where I would have liked the conversation to go, and end with encouraging him to see Christianity for the truth that it is rather than believing there is no truth and forming his beliefs off of that. There is no need for a political mindset when you are a Christian, that is the world and our values do not come from that.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#31
Society says clearly in his profile he's not a Christian.

If you're not a Christian, and you're on a Christian website, there are really only 2 reasons to be there:
1. You're sincerely looking for answers, and searching for God.
2. You're entertaining yourself by arguing and disrupting things.

I don't think this is a tough call.

exactly

I said that some posts back with regards to the other 'seeker of something' that was here

just cut the convo; not a tough call at all
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
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35
#32
Like the way right Wingers Revere Alex Jones 3az some type of Guru or something despite the fact that he's a raving lunatic
No they dont? I see people on the right put him down all the time.

You and your blanket statements.
 

17Bees

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2016
1,363
802
113
#33
Hooooooo boy. Let's go then.

Abortion: Yep, bodily autonomy is a thing. We don't even let people use a corpse without permission from the person it belonged to so why should we let a fetus use someone else? Nobody is going to run up to you on the street and force you to donate a kidney or blood to someone who needs it, so a fetus should have no right to the mother's body. Take that away and you're giving women less rights than a corpse.
As a Christian I believe humans were made in the image of God as taught in Genesis. Our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are not our own. We don't own ourselves nor do we own others. I also personally believe that all life happens at conception; independent, sovereign life. This is why the ending of the human life through abortion is such an atrocity. I believe we can have debate when a pregnancy endangers the life of the mother or when other extraordinary cases dictate debate, but the far majority of abortions - some 600,000 annually are performed as a matter of convenience or birth control. We have numerous ways to prevent a pregnancy if a man or woman so choose, but to rely on the murder of life in order to not be "saddled with a child" is barbaric, archaic, and defies all morality.


Homosexuality: Whatever someone does in their bedroom is between them and the consenting adults that they do it with, why should I care?
The reason I care is because all throughout scripture, both old and new testaments confirm that homosexuality is an abomination to our God of Israel. Since it's an abomination to God it's also an abomination to me.

Free everything: I think a comprehensive social safety net is a pretty good thing. It prevents things, like getting cancer, from bankrupting you and your family. Even more useful if for some reason you lose your job and suddenly have no health insurance. Everyone helps out everyone else, and together we all do better.
How do you know that we will all do better? Is there an entity you can point to where everyone helps everyone else and we all do better? In the USA, I believe our founding fathers looked towards the natures of mankind. They understood Ponticus and his deadly sins - that of avarice, greed, and gluttony and reckoned that for all the good men and women (like you) who care for the betterment of others, there are as many or more that care for the betterment of themselves. They tried to devise a good, not perfect, republic that aims to help those in need tempered by a Christian concept of profit in labor. In Genesis God taught us labor in his six day creation of the universe followed by His day of rest. He taught Adam BEFORE Adam's fall that he would work Eden and maintain its perfection. I believe this "profit of labor" in Proverbs builds more than an ability to care for yourself and those you love; it builds character of the heart and pleases God.

Hollywood Morality: I have no idea what this means, you'll have to elaborate
.

I'm guessing it means the recent Harvey Wienstein thing. Harvey's been accused of many cases of abuse to women - even rape - and apparently this was a well known fact for some time by many celebrities including a candidate for POTUS who preach for rights and respect women deserve. It seems hypocritical

Taking Men out of Family/Girly Men: Who is removing men from families? Is there some secret police I'm unaware of that comes in the night to steal husbands? And who cares if men are more effeminate? I've gone to get pedicures/massages/manicures with my girlfriend and it feels great. Pretty sure the 'manly' person is the one who does what they want and doesn't care about people like you judging them.
Often, manhood is doing exactly those things he doesn't want to do. I think you're confusing bravado with manhood. I think men do care how they're judged. They want to be favorably judged by their children as a truthful man, caring, loving, and as a leader of good reputation. He wants to be judged by his wife as a man who loves God and who commits to his words and proves it by his deeds and provides for and protects his family. Read Micah 6:8

Mocking Conservatives: Don't even pretend conservatives don't mock anyone liberal. That's what this entire thread is.

Lying About Conservatives: Yep, this absolutely happens. I am 100% sure that news stories have been fabricated about conservatives by liberals. I am also 100% certain that conservatives have fabricated things about liberals. Your side isn't innocent of this.
I think you're right.

Arguing/No Evidence: Again, both sides. Do you honestly think conservatives and conservative news outlets don't make up stories and repeat things without evidence?
Agreed. I have to cross check sport scores these days.

Change History: I assume you mean the statue of that Confederate dude? Statues are for people to look up to, I don't think someone who died fighting for slavery should be looked up to. Throw it in a museum to show that you're beyond that. No reason to glorify a loser's ideology.
I think whether you are denigrating or impugning the reputations of Robert E. Lee or Martin L King, you're going to be met with an equally violent and disparaging argument. You might be interested to know that the "Northerners" and the Southerners in the years before 1860 often denigrated the other's reputation and built a hatred for the whole while never knowing the heart of the one. I believe we can have debate over statues, but I think that a handful of people tearing down statues without another's input is harmful and further deepens a divide that probably isn't so divided after all.

Forced Healthcare: I think I answered this above. A single-payer system is pretty great honestly, it protects you when you have an unlucky streak. Lose your home? Your job? Your insurance? That's fine, if you get sick you can still get treated. Without a single-payer system the poor are unable to access treatments that are sometimes required to live.
I think I answered this above too.

Brainwashed Children: What brainwashed children?
Unfortunately I think we humans are mostly headline readers. We don't do much investigating and news headlines are often worded in a way that turn fact into conjecture. If this can happen with current events, imagine what can happen with historical events. I think some professors in higher education temper actual history with their own individual sentiment, i.e., word the headline. The student can leave the college with the same sentiments. I know of no perfect man. There are no perfect men or women in my own country's history. But I do know of some perfect things they accomplished. George Washington was an honorable man who led a rag tag un-united band of rebels to defeat a world power and helped found the United States. The headline though is that he was a slave owner.

Nobody is being thrown in jail for voicing their opinion, no need to start the fear mongering. Though if I wrote my own list of 'conservative things' I would put fear mongering right on top.
You're right that no one is thrown in jail for voicing an opinion or burning a flag or even taking a knee during our national anthem, but that is all our first amendment guarantees. It does not guarantee there will be no consequence. Sometimes the consequence can be worse than the jail time.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#35
You're right that no one is thrown in jail for voicing an opinion or burning a flag or even taking a knee during our national anthem, but that is all our first amendment guarantees. It does not guarantee there will be no consequence. Sometimes the consequence can be worse than the jail time.
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you're only '31', so how could you possibly know that 'certain' things in my or past generations
were 'taboo', = NOT TOLERATED or considered very dis-respectful'? good for you, you are blessed-
see what those who 'pull the strings' have done and will continue to do?!?!? HELLO!
some of us have seen it over and over in our lives; it's called in the Bible, 'spelling', etc...

HEB. 10:22.
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of Faith, having our hearts
sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with Pure Water.