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Thread: Stand by Catalonia

  1. #1
    Alnmouth
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    Default Stand by Catalonia

    As a Christian, I strongly dislike hypocrisy.

    (Jesus used the word hypocrite to people who opposed him. Can there ever be such a thing as good hypocrisy?)

    The USA came into existence through a war of independence. Other countries which have achieved independence in the face of adversity include Mexico, Finland, India, Bangladesh, Eritrea, and probably most countries in South America.

    The people of Catalonia are now seeking independence, and they have my wholehearted support.

    I am British, and a few years ago we allowed the people of Scotland to vote on independence - and yet a peaceful referendum in Catalonia was opposed by vicious thugs in police uniforms.

    I have never been to Spain, but many British people favour it as a holiday destination.

    I seriously believe that we should all seek to boycott non-Catalan areas of Spain as a holiday destination until the Spanish government has backed down and allowed independence.

    We should also try to avoid buying wine from Spain, unless we can be sure it comes from Catalonia.

    For some reason I have decided to make this post resemble the flag of Catalonia.



  2. #2
    Senior Member blue_ladybug's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Ummmm.. okay..
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  3. #3
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    As an update, Catalonia banned bull fighting nearly six years ago, whereas in many parts of Spain the blood fest continues.

  4. #4
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia


    I think you're on pretty thin ice if you want to accuse Americans of HYPOCRISY in not helping some particular group of people to break away from some particular country.



    1. There are no living Americans who are responsible for our revolution: good or bad, none of us had anything to do with it at all... so none of us could, in any way, have logically committed any acts of hypocrisy regarding a revolution we weren't responsible for.

    You can't accuse us of hypocrisy because some living politicians now, whom we don't control, may have different views than some dead politicians from 250 years ago, whom we also do not control... because they're dead.

    This is entirely absurd.

    Accusing us of hypocrisy is just absurd.

    Hey, I know what I'll do.... I'll accuse YOU of hyprcrisy for anything England has done for the last 1,000 years... and while I'm at it, I'll also accuse you of hypocrisy for anything stupid your current administration has done.
    That's fair right?



    2. Whatever our gov't is doing or not doing about Catalonia, the average citizen has no more control over the politicians than he has over the weather.

    Like most countries, the citizenry usually has little to do with the policies of the federal govt, and even less regarding any particular administration.



    3. It is entirely conceivable that in some situations a particular region should perhaps NOT be allowed to secede from their nation.
    Considering this has potential to create economic hardship and civil unrest on BOTH sides... it isn't necessarily a given that any time people want to secede from their country it's automatically the best plan.

    It's a pretty big deal if you want to leave your country, and when you leave, you want to take part of it with you.
    Generally if you want to leave your country, you just pack a suitcase.
    If you want to declare your neighborhood a separate nation... well... that's a pretty large and complicated issue.



    4. Finally, most of us aren't experts on the situation with Catalonia, and you made no effort to give us any historical or political information.

    Before you start swinging, and questioning the moral integrity of people you don't even know, you should start by questioning yourself, and why you're too lazy to explain an argument you claim to be so concerned about.

    You really shouldn't just come in here swinging at everyone.

    Regardless of the situation in Catalonia, people aren't likely to listen to YOUR particular view if you start by insulting them.

    This isn't a good method to persuade people.
    Last edited by maxwel; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:52 PM.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Tommy379's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnmouth View Post
    As an update, Catalonia banned bull fighting nearly six years ago, whereas in many parts of Spain the blood fest continues.
    I didn't realize everyone is to be of the same opinion concerning bullfighting.

  6. #6
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy379 View Post
    I didn't realize everyone is to be of the same opinion concerning bullfighting.
    Did I say that they should? I'm not clear what point you are making here, but most people in Britain do not approve of bull fighting. Did you know that it is normal for the bull to be already dying when the matador enters?

    I will reply to Maxwel later, but right now I have to get ready to go to church.

  7. #7
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    I think you're on pretty thin ice if you want to accuse Americans of HYPOCRISY... .
    Did I accuse anyone of hypocrisy? Also, I mentioned many countries, not just the USA. My intention was to urge people to consider whether or not their position might be hypocritical.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    1. There are no living Americans who are responsible for our revolution ...
    True, but how many Americans celebrate that revolution each year on 4th of July? I believe the answer is somewhere in the region of all of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    2. Whatever our gov't is doing or not doing about Catalonia, the average citizen has no more control over the politicians than he has over the weather...
    Ordinary people can influence decisions taken by governments. I believe for example that British people can exert an influence by choosing a destination other than non-Catalan Spain for their next vacation.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    3. It is entirely conceivable that in some situations a particular region should perhaps NOT be allowed to secede from their nation... .
    You are on very thin ice with this argument. Anyone who has seen the film Passport To Pimlico knows that seeking independence is not something to be undertaken lightly. Nevertheless I wonder what arguments you could reasonably construct to justify denying independence to people who genuinely want it. Surely democracy matters.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    4. Finally, most of us aren't experts on the situation with Catalonia, and you made no effort to give us any historical or political information... .
    Point taken. Consider these population statistics:
    Catalonia 7.5 million
    Netherlands 6.5million
    Ireland (Northern Ireland and the Republic lumped together) 6.4million
    Scotland 5.4million

    Catalonia also has its own language, and is the richest region of Spain.


    Quote Originally Posted by maxwel View Post
    Regardless of the situation in Catalonia, people aren't likely to listen to YOUR particular view if you start by insulting them...
    You seem to be insulted by what you inferred, rather than by what I implied.
    Last edited by Alnmouth; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:38 AM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member tanakh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    I have very little knowledge about Catalonia. I think we have enough problems here to worry about.
    Miri likes this.

  9. #9
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by tanakh View Post
    I have very little knowledge about Catalonia. I think we have enough problems here to worry about.

    There are many issues facing people around the world. The question is what we can do about any of them. I am not asking anyone to go out of their way on this matter, but merely to consider refraining from contributing to the non-Catalan Spanish economy until this matter has been resolved.


  10. #10
    Senior Member Ellsworth1943's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Maybe it is time for America and the rest of the world to just keep our nose out of everyone else business.
    Billyd, tanakh and peacenik like this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Ellsworth1943's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnmouth View Post


    There are many issues facing people around the world. The question is what we can do about any of them. I am not asking anyone to go out of their way on this matter, but merely to consider refraining from contributing to the non-Catalan Spanish economy until this matter has been resolved.

    As for their economy, we get everything from China.

  12. #12
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    Maybe it is time for America and the rest of the world to just keep our nose out of everyone else business.
    I am not asking for any country to intervene militarily. I am inviting those who think they can assist to play their part in promoting the cause of Catalan independence in the face of oppressive misrule.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    As for their economy, we get everything from China.
    So nobody in the USA ever buys Spanish cars, guns, fruit ...

  13. #13
    Senior Member Ellsworth1943's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnmouth View Post

    I am not asking for any country to intervene militarily. I am inviting those who think they can assist to play their part in promoting the cause of Catalan independence in the face of oppressive misrule.


    So nobody in the USA ever buys Spanish cars, guns, fruit ...
    You have determined that the Spanish rule is oppressive. I am to accept your opinion and boycott Spanish product.
    That is a local issue. None of my business. None of your business. It's time that everyone keep their nose out of other people's business.
    I am sure you would complain very loudly if I took sides against your political stand in your country and asked the world to boycott your livelihood.

  14. #14
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    You have determined that theSpanish rule is oppressive. I am to accept your opinion and boycott Spanishproduct. .

    I am asking those who agree with me about the right to self-determination to do what they reasonably can to assist the cause of Catalan independence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    That is a local issue. None of my business. Noneof your business. It's time that everyone keep their nose out of other people'sbusiness. .

    You are American I take it.

    Are you arguing that the French navy should not have blockaded the harbour at Yorktown? I merely ask. As it happens, I think the French went too far in assisting the American patriots. An economic boycott is one thing, but a military blockade is in another league.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    I am sure you would complain very loudly if I tooksides against your political stand in your country and asked the world toboycott your livelihood.

    You are asking me to answer a hypothetical question. What would your boycott be protesting? Scotland had a referendum.

    I have thought about your answer, and I think that a balance needs to be struck between the misery that a boycott might cause to ordinary people and the positive impact it might have. It is easy to overlook the suffering caused by police oppression in Catalonia, and also to overlook the economic damage caused to Catalonia by its having to bail out the economy of the rest of Spain.

    I began this thread in the belief that the Spanish government would very quickly climb down in the face of a boycott, and I remain of that opinion.

    Last edited by Alnmouth; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:35 PM.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Willie-T's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    I'm cool with it. No more Spanish cars for me.
    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________
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  16. #16
    Senior Member Tommy379's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnmouth View Post
    I am asking those who agree with me about the right to self-determination to do what they reasonably can to assist the cause of Catalan independence.


    You are American I take it.

    Are you arguing that the French navy should not have blockaded the harbour at Yorktown? I merely ask. As it happens, I think the French went too far in assisting the American patriots. An economic boycott is one thing, but a military blockade is in another league.


    You are asking me to answer a hypothetical question. What would your boycott be protesting? Scotland had a referendum.

    I have thought about your answer, and I think that a balance needs to be struck between the misery that a boycott might cause to ordinary people and the positive impact it might have. It is easy to overlook the suffering caused by police oppression in Catalonia, and also to overlook the economic damage caused to Catalonia by its having to bail out the economy of the rest of Spain.

    I began this thread in the belief that the Spanish government would very quickly climb down in the face of a boycott, and I remain of that opinion.

    The French were asked by us tp assist in the revolution. Catalonia has not asked for anything, and we have no interest in their politics. The French did have an interest in putting it to the lime suckers.
    What does Spain produce? Last I heard, they are one of the countries dragging the rest of Europe down. What does Catalonia have that will insure that they can be independent? Or are they counting on the rest of the European Union to prop them up? I know nothing of the situation, but these questions come to mind.

  17. #17
    Senior Member peacenik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellsworth1943 View Post
    Maybe it is time for America and the rest of the world to just keep our nose out of everyone else business.


    I agree that it is not the business of the USA government to intrude in this matter as we have enough issues to deal with domestically. However, if individual citizens wish to speak up or join a boycott, that's their prerogative.
    Tommy379 likes this.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member maxwel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie-T View Post
    I'm cool with it. No more Spanish cars for me.

    This made me spit up my coffee.

    : )

  19. #19
    Alnmouth
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommy379 View Post
    LastI heard, they are one of the countries dragging the rest of Europe down. Whatdoes Catalonia have that will insure that they can be independent? Or are theycounting on the rest of the European Union to prop them up?

    Forgive me if I sound harsh, but you seem to have almost no understanding of the European situation. The EU has for many years now been dragging itself down with a sluggish economy and very high levels of unemployment.
    Spain is far from being the richest country in Europe,and that in itself is a good reason for the Catalans to want to go it alone. It cannot expect to be propped up by the EU, because the EU is struggling to prop itself up.
    I hope that the Catalans will break free from the EU as well as Spain, but one step at a time.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Tommy379's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stand by Catalonia

    Quote Originally Posted by Alnmouth View Post
    Forgive me if I sound harsh, but you seem to have almost nounderstanding of the European situation. The EU has for many years now been dragging itself down with a sluggisheconomy and very high levels of unemployment.
    Spain is far from being the richest country in Europe,and that in itself is a good reason for the Catalans to want to go italone. It cannot expect to be propped upby the EU, because the EU is struggling to prop itself up.
    I hope that the Catalans will break free from the EU aswell as Spain, but one step at a time.
    Sluggish economies are caused by a lack of productivity. So, what in my statement you replied to is wrong? I asked simple questions, you cannot answer.

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