View Poll Results: Should government be allowed to make everyone buy a healthcare plan?

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Thread: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

  1. #1
    Senior Member zeroturbulence's Avatar
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    Default Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Ok so basically the question is - Do you think it's ok for the government to require everyone to purchase healthcare?
    That is the basic concept of the "Individual Mandate" that the Supreme Court is reviewing right now.

    Under Obamacare, everyone who works will be required to pay for health coverage even if they cannot afford it or don't need it (are perfectly healthy).

    Remember, you can choose not to buy car insurance by taking the bus or walking, but you can't opt out of Obamacare.

    (Note: what I mentioned above are my own words, not from any article)


    Here is a recent article from the Christian Science Monitor regarding Obamacare...

    Supreme Court health-care hearing: How bad does it look for 'Obamacare'? - CSMonitor.com
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    Senior Member Cleante's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    "Under the Affordable Care Act (Obamacare is a derisive term...), everyone who works will be required to pay for health coverage even if they cannot afford it or don't need it (are perfectly healthy)."

    That statement is a little misleading. There is a sliding scale, which is very generous, for those who cannot afford private insurance. The name of the law is not "Obamacare". It is The Affordable Care Act. Let's stick to that instead of derisive names.

    But to answer your question, I do hold some reservations about the Individual Mandate but I'm leading more towards constitutional. I wish the congress would have passed a 'Medicare for all' plan instead of requiring citizens to purchase a product from a private market entity. That's just my two cents and it won't buy you much.
    Last edited by Cleante; March 28th, 2012 at 11:34 AM.
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    Post Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    it would be something like taxes. they might start companies to help with it. it would be a hassle. doing it wrong could get you in jail. i heard the insurance will cover abortion. i don't want to pay for abortion.

  4. #4
    jimmydiggs
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    I am against it.
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    Senior Member lil_christian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmydiggs View Post
    I am against it.
    I'm with you on being against it.
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    Senior Member zeroturbulence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    I'm against it too, and I think Obamacare is a much better name, even if it was a good idea.

    The idea that those who can't afford it will still have to pay for it came from an article I read yesterday that showed how the healthcare act will affect a few example situations of people with different incomes.

    According to the article, a healthy, 21-yr old woman making $20k a year and could not afford healthcare would still be forced to buy a plan at the tune of about $85 a month. That figure is based on 5% of her income.

    Here is the article where I got that from:
    How Will the Affordable Care Act Affect You? - Yahoo! Finance
    Last edited by zeroturbulence; March 28th, 2012 at 01:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    The Healthcare Law would be the worst violation of the Constitution in American history as it abrogates the fundamental principles upon which the country was built. Most of the others you could say were done out of necessity to preserve the order and have a decent philosophical case. This one doesn't.
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  8. #8
    1still_waters
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    The government can draft you to go kill people. There are many things the government can make you do.

    Honestly I don't see why so many conservatives are against the health care mandate.

    The conservative organization Heritage Foundation came up with the idea. Newt Gingrich Mr. Conservative WAS for it. Mitt signed it in to law.

    The mandate is actually about personal responsibility.

    Without the mandate, you leave us with a healthcare system where the insured end up paying the costs for the uninsured. That's right, part of your medical bill contains passed on costs due to the uninsured not paying.

    The healthcare mandate basically says, "Hey you're going to have to pay for your health care now. You can't pass it on to someone else by making them pay more for THEIR health care because YOUR costs were passed on to them."

    ^---Can't understand why conservatives are against that.

    I thought conservatives hated the idea of having to pay someone else's bills. Well without the health mandate, that's exactly what you end up with.

    I hate to say it, but it's actually liberal/progressive to be against the health mandate.

    *hunkers down waiting for the incoming fire*

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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Wow Still, interesting take on the Health Care Bill, and given the modern and rather loose definition of conservative, I do not believe you are far off the mark.

    What happened was the banking crisis of '08 followed by the election of Barack Obama. Conservatives who were once so keen to garner votes by appearing more centrist were faced with a Right-Wing voting public that had better acquainted itself with the axioms of economic liberty. It forced people to really question and better define what they believe and where they stand.

    Some things what were once considered conservative, i.e. working toward the preservation of or agreement with transcendent principle were, upon further reflection, not living up to those ends. The individual mandate among them.

    As for me, I'm against the mandate largely because of its shakey relationship with the commerce clause in the service of a progressive end.

    That and there is the issue of culture. Those who have seen my comments on other threads realize that while I embrace Big Liberty, I do believe in a strongly conservative society and the concept of community. The Health Care Law, like any other large bureaucratic nightmare, only works to destroy communal cohesion giving way to a fatter leviathan.
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  10. #10
    mori
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritter View Post
    The Healthcare Law would be the worst violation of the Constitution in American history as it abrogates the fundamental principles upon which the country was built.
    Emphasis mine. This I have to hear. How is mandating healthcare worse, in terms of abrogation of basic principles, than

    - warrantless wiretapping
    - OK's (overturned) mandatory ultrasound law
    - IL's (overturned) eavesdropping bill
    - MD's (overturned) gun law
    - MI's (overturned) anti-union law
    - WI's (overturned) voter ID law
    - Jackson's decision to ignore a treaty with the Cherokee and the results of Worcester v. Georgia
    - slavery (upheld, but eventually overturned)
    - the (upheld, but eventually apologized for) interment of the Japanese and Japanese Americans

    These last three in particular are dark marks in American constitutional practice and they certainly weren't justified by necessity. With unmitigated sarcasm, I suppose I can see how the Healthcare Law is comparable to telling the judicial branch of government that its decisions are irrelevant and we can treat treaties and racial minorities as we see fit, even going so far as death marches.
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    Senior Member kujo313's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by zeroturbulence View Post
    Ok so basically the question is - Do you think it's ok for the government to require everyone to purchase healthcare?
    That is the basic concept of the "Individual Mandate" that the Supreme Court is reviewing right now.

    Under Obamacare, everyone who works will be required to pay for health coverage even if they cannot afford it or don't need it (are perfectly healthy).

    Remember, you can choose not to buy car insurance by taking the bus or walking, but you can't opt out of Obamacare.

    (Note: what I mentioned above are my own words, not from any article)


    Here is a recent article from the Christian Science Monitor regarding Obamacare...

    Supreme Court health-care hearing: How bad does it look for 'Obamacare'? - CSMonitor.com
    It's unconstitutional.
    The government can't MAKE people buy insurance "or else".

    Let's get this straight:
    Obama claims to be for the poor.
    Gas prices more than doubled. The poor can't afford to drive.
    Coal plants closing. Electric bills will skyrocket, as promised by Obama. The poor can't afford electricity.

    Over a year ago, over 30,000 people jammed Cobo Hall in Detroit in order to get free "Obama Money" to help pay their bills. Months later, only 5,000 people showed up for a Job Fair.

    Some people won't do things until somebody is watching them.
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    Senior Member acesneverwin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by 1still_waters View Post
    Without the mandate, you leave us with a healthcare system where the insured end up paying the costs for the uninsured. That's right, part of your medical bill contains passed on costs due to the uninsured not paying.

    The healthcare mandate basically says, "Hey you're going to have to pay for your health care now. You can't pass it on to someone else by making them pay more for THEIR health care because YOUR costs were passed on to them."

    I thought conservatives hated the idea of having to pay someone else's bills. Well without the health mandate, that's exactly what you end up with.
    So... who's paying for all the people who don't have jobs and their bills? If you are poor and can't afford it and don't have a job, someone else is gonna be paying it for you right? I really don't see how a mandate is gonna help. People are always gonna be paying someone else's bill because so many are too lazy to get jobs. And even now if you go to the emergency room, it's always these people plugging it up. My brother and his wife are drug bums with no jobs. They ALWAYS go to the emergency room for stupid stuff like a stomach ache or whatever. We already have to pay for stupid people like that. How is the health care bill gonna change that?

    Also, I'm curious... since it will be a mandate, will jobs that provide health care now stop providing since you need to buy it anyway? I really don't see jobs giving you your money if they stop paying for health care. Like that is part of your pay, health care. If my job did stop paying for health care and my check went up because that money now goes to me instead and I buy my own, I wouldn't care. But do you really think jobs are gonna do that or just drop it off and you get paid the same amount and now you have to pay for health care on top of it?

    I'm not very savy on this whole thing and I'm not really sure where I should stand though I lean for against it currently.
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    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    bear in mind now i was born in u.s. and grew up there,,,,,in the u.s. the "majority rule",,,if its upheld that the people by majority decide it over a time becomes law.,,,that is the gov. cannot (without a warrant) search your house,property,person(body) ect.,,,,,,,,,,,but on that note,,look at the bottom of any "application for employment",,,there's a paragraph that (gives your permission to investagate/test),,, and agrees that all of your statements are true,,you date and sign this each time you apply for any thing,,jobs,loans,housing ect.,,,but read the paragraph your signing carefully,,,(you surrendered your rights you gave them permission) so they have a signed contract with you to drug test,review your medical records arrest records ect.,,,,,,,,,,now you wont get the job the house the loan if you don't,,(i agree),,,,,,,,,,,the same with Obama care,,,he and every candidate told you they were going to pass it if elected,,,,,h. Clinton and Obama during a debate discussed it fully,,,,,h. Clinton if you remember/research back in the debates also made the comment "i will tell you what he(Obama) wont",,,,,,she went on to say it would be a "mandate",,,,,,,,that you would be forced to buy it.,,,,,,,,,but he was elected by the majority of the people anyway,,,,so the choice is made "we agreed",,,,,,,,,,,,we decided to be OK with the patriot act(we voted for bush and all the congress and sen. who passed it),,,,,,,,,,,we as a people center on which ever issue the "news" tells you to look at ,,,,,,for example "abortion",,,well for the record "i don't want to be forced to finance it either" ,,,,,,,,,,,but look closer,,because the news wont tell you things that will hurt themselves or the government in their pocket,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"it also gives them permission to hold you down and stick a chip in you",,,,rfid,,,,,,,,,,"you see you gave them permission",,,,,,,,,,,you have to buy the insurance but you cannot use it if you don't have a chip,,but you notice the news wont tell you that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"look at the section (approved artificial implants)" that is in Obama care it approves pacemakers,artificial hearts,,,,,(r.f.i.d.) ect.ect.,,,,,,,,,,,"and you agreed",,,,take a "search/google",march of 2013,,,,no more checks will be issued to ssi,,,irs ect... governments going "paperless",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"you got a pin-number in your forehead",,,,your pin is your name,it is the name of the government giving you permission to buy sell and trade,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,without it you cannot buy sell and eat,,,,,,,,,,,you wont get your check put into your account without the "pin-number in your forehead",,,you wont be able to get gas at the pump "without the pin-number in your forehead",,,,,you wont be able to go to the doctor "without the pin- number in your forehead",,,,you have to "enter the pin-number in your forehead to pay for the dr. visit",,,,,,,,and just like god said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"let he that hath wisdom calculate the number of the beast",,,,,,,,,,,,its your secret number,,you calculated it(you made it up),,,,,,,,,,,its "equal to your name and the government that gives you permission to use it",,,,,,,,,,,,(its both signatures),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,mankind is led down a road of fear by the unlearned and the news media,,,,,,,,,,,,,,their afraid of the r.f.i.d.,,,,,,,but look close at revelations 13;16-17,,,,,,,,,,,,man says the chip is the feared mark(one thing),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,god says (three things),,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(1)something in your hand,,,,,,(2)in your forehead,,,,,or(3) the name of the beast,,,,,,,,,,,,,"or"in their right hand,,,"or",,,,,in their foreheads,,,,,"or",,,,,the name of the beast,,,,,,i say this because the chip is only one part of the three things the bible speaks of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the pin-number in your forehead is also part of it,,and the other is the name (permission)s.s.-card,green-card,,,,credit score ect. to use the money type finances of the government.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"is it constitutional?",,,,yes by mans law,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"but not by gods",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just like a child learns to do math on scratch paper,,,,then he figures out its easier to do it with a calculator,,,,,,,,,,,,so also the billions of people with pin-numbers in their foreheads will be easier to track all of their medical financial and government status by r.f.i.d.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the important thing to note is "or" see rev. 13;16-17 where it list three ways you can have it,,,,,,,,,,and don't follow the fairytales telling you about "only one way to have the mark",,,6-6-6,,,,,,6 is the number of man 7 is of god,,,,,6-the pin-number of a man,,,6-the name of the man/permission to buy sell and trade given by government,,,,6-credit score,cards ect. the man can buy sell and trade based on the power of his name and has the endorsement/signature of the gov. to buy sell and trade even if he has no money(credit),,,,,,,,,,,,,look at what is real,,,,,not what may be going to happen,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,play the game backwards,,,,,next year when you set up the "nativity seen" at the Christmas play have joseph ask the in-keeper "wheres the pin pad?",,,,,,,,,,,"can i write a check?",when we eat dinner "do you take American express?" tell joseph to tell him my number is "428-22-7795",,,,,,,and my pin is 4456,,,,,,,,,,,,tell joseph to tell them we have "cesar-care" and my wife mary is about to have a baby,,,,,,,tell joseph to give him all his numbers "in his forehead",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"that way it will click that the way they bought sold and traded are not the way we do",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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  14. #14
    TheGrungeDiva
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathanbchristian View Post
    it would be something like taxes. they might start companies to help with it. it would be a hassle. doing it wrong could get you in jail. i heard the insurance will cover abortion. i don't want to pay for abortion.
    I don't want to pay for war, but I don't get that choice, now, do I?

    As an American, I have to pay for a whole lot of things that I don't like, that go against my faith.

    Taxes are the price we pay for living in a society. It is an interesting analogy, auto insurance and health insurance. If you don't want to have to pay for auto insurance, you don't have to buy a car. Sounds fair to me.

    Tell you what: if you don't want to pay for health insurance, you don't have to breathe my air. That way, you won't be infecting me with whatever diseases you don't get treated for. Fair enough?

    We are one of the few industrialized nations that doesn't have insurance coverage for all citizens. This is not a "mandate," this is just humane.

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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    i think we in america should have universal healthcare...like most other decent countries, but unless it is truly univral health care, I also dont think i should be forced to get less adequate things against my will

  16. #16
    psychomom
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    I am pretty seriously ill, uninsured, and completely against the Health Care Law.
    Not to mention the amazing number of things in those 4,000 pages that have NOTHING to do with health care (e.g. student loans)

    It had to be passed before being read (Thanks, Ms. Pelosi) probably because of the content.

    ps- grungediva, the Constitution provides for defense of the country. I agree not all the wars in which we've participated protected our citizens per se (or at all), but my guess is you would probably like some sort of national defense?? I could be wrong- so apologies in advance.
    But a Constitutional amendment would be necessary to change the defense laws. Or a move to another nation on the part of those of us who seriously disagree with what's being done is always an option... (I just can't think of a better place to go, yet.) ~ellie
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  17. #17
    TheGrungeDiva
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Quote Originally Posted by psychomom View Post
    I am pretty seriously ill, uninsured, and completely against the Health Care Law.
    I am sorry to hear of your illness. I will pray for your healing, which trumps universal health care any day of the week, right?

    Not to mention the amazing number of things in those 4,000 pages that have NOTHING to do with health care (e.g. student loans)
    Actually, I agree with you. This is how politics are played. Side one wants something, so in order to get it, side two demands something in return. That's why bills are so complex, and so many of them end up having a lot of different things thrown into them. I agree that this is wrong, and I would like to see something done about it. I'm not sure what can be done about it. This was one of the items on the agenda of the "Occupy" movements, and unfortunately, although the movements represented what is, I think, a majority opinion, they did not communicate that clearly, and the whole thing turned into kind of a 60s hippie fest revival, which is too bad. I think something similar happened with the Tea Party: original they had some great ideas, and as soon as the Republican Party saw some momentum, they kind of usurped it and took it over. I find it funny that these fat cats in Washington claim to be "Tea Party members" when the whole point of the Tea Party was originally against fat cats in Washington.

    I don't know, maybe we Americans are still too fat and lazy to mind ... the water is not yet boiling, so we're just frogs in hot water right now, enjoying the Jacuzzi.

    It had to be passed before being read (Thanks, Ms. Pelosi) probably because of the content.
    Actually, I have read all 4,000 pages, and any congress person who has not has had it read and summarized by his or her staff. That's what they're there for.

    ps- grungediva, the Constitution provides for defense of the country. I agree not all the wars in which we've participated protected our citizens per se (or at all), but my guess is you would probably like some sort of national defense?? I could be wrong- so apologies in advance.
    Apologies accepted. I'm not sure I would want any kind of "military machine." Having such makes it too easy for us to bypass the more diplomatic (and, I think more Christian) means to peace. I look at it sort of the way many martial arts teach: fighting is the LAST resort, not the easy way out. If this nation were to put its defense resources into avoiding conflicts rather than dealing with them once they've started, not only would that be more moral, and more in line with Christian teachings, but it would also ultimately cost less in dollars (not to mention human life, which cannot really have a price tag).

    But then, again, easier said than done. It's easy for me to sit in the comfort and safety of my living room and say this, while our men and women are in the Middle East. At the very least, I think any political leader who votes in favor of any war or military action should be REQUIRED either to serve in the military him or herself, or to have a son or daughter in the military for at least a year. I don't like this deal of the political machine making decisions that they don't really have to pay for.

    But a Constitutional amendment would be necessary to change the defense laws.
    I, and millions of other Americans, understand the constitution to read that it also covers the personal well-being of its citizens, which includes health. I know a lot of Americans believe our interpretation of the constitution is incorrect. To a point, we feel the current situation -- where millions of Americans are without health care -- is a violation of the constitution, and this "Obamacare," though far from perfect, is at least a step in the right direction of forcing insurance companies to step in line with the constitutional rights of the citizens of this country. Like I said, I understand that not everyone agrees with our interpretation of the constitution. I hope that others, though they disagree with our interpretation, at least understand where we are coming from, and don't see us as just wanting "entitlements," but rather as being patriotic and seeing an injustice, a violation of the constitution that needs to be corrected. Does that make sense?

    Or a move to another nation on the part of those of us who seriously disagree with what's being done is always an option... (I just can't think of a better place to go, yet.) ~ellie
    I hear ya. It's tempting. Just this morning I had a dream that I moved to Canada. Go figure.

    God bless, and thank you for your comments that spoke of the debate, rather than attacking individuals. It is nice to be able to discuss this issue maturely, even though we disagree.
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Ronney got universal health care i massachuttess as its govenor now hes agianist it u can not have it both ways if it is struck down then take it away from the state of massacuttess as well rommey put it thier he also supports planned parent hood the health care law in massacuttes funds planned parent hood alot $$$$$$$$$$$$$4 many $$$$$$$$$$ worth. just my view.

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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    Never about the money, always about the control.

    With the money system being used "fiat"........ now they can just move digits around a computer system...................... guess it is easier to manipulate than printing money...

    How often are we charged extra for paying cash?

    They now charge us to use "money" ............. who would of thought that possible?

    Yet, we all walk on trusting those that seek to destroy us...........................

    How the world looks when you trust ALmighty Yahvah God and Yahshua the Messiah..

    obamacare? just another move on the board.

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    Senior Member iamsoandso's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obamacare: Is it constitutional or not? You make the call!

    and you see this is why the money will work no more,,,,,,,,Russia and china and much of the u.e. will not accept it,here is why,,,,,,,,,if you own a gas station in the u.s.,,,,and you call to the fuel company and order 10,000 gallons of unleaded(because your almost out),,,,,,if the price per gallon is 3.85,,and they deliver it,,,,,,,,,,,,your mark-up is "x percent" and you post 3.92 on the signs,,,,,,,,two days after delivery,,,,,,,price per barrel falls below 100.00 per barrel,,,,,and keeps on dropping for 10 days,,,,,,,,,,the other stations around you did buy fuel when you did,,,and so the only paid 3.42 a gallon so they put 3.46 on their signs,,,,,,,,,your bushiness fall to "0",,the bread went up,the soft drinks went up,the "every-thing" followed the fuel prices,,,,,,,,,,and that is,,,,,,,,,lets move to another business,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"you are a business inverter from Russia" ,,,,,,,,,,you went to the market in the u.s. and you purchased "the goods",,and then you told "your people to make it happen",,,,,so they took the peachy deal you bought,,,,,and started work on shipping it back to Russia,,,,and you got on a plane and went home,,,,,,,,,,,,4 days later,they call you and say,,,,,"boss,,,you made a peachy deal",,,,,,,that is you bought the stuff to sell back home for for 60,000 u.s. dollars,,,,,,,,,the trucking company said they could take it to California for 12.000 per rig times 40 rigs,,,,,,,,,,but then the Iranians shut off the gulf and the "threat of it sent the price per barrel back to 120.00 per barrel",,,,,,,,,and so now it's gonna be 24.000,,,per rig,,,,to ship it to the west coast,,,,,,,,,and the shipping company said it went up from 5,000 to 12,000,to ship it from Santiago to st. peters-burg,,,,,,,,,,,now you had figured you would make 22,000,,u.s.,,,,,,,,,10 days ago,,,,,,,but now you need to right a check for 36.000 u.s.,and all because the value of the u.s. dollar bill went up and down with the price of oil,and bread,and labor,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you see it takes a while to sent all of the precious stones and gold nuggets you have in your treasure chest to me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"but if you only had a pin- number in your forehead",,,,,,,,,,,,well then you could have paid the men when they said "this much for a days work",,,,,,,,,,,this much to do that,,,,,,,,,,,"if you only had a pn number in your fore-head",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,you know ,,,,,,,,,slide the card,,,,,slide the card,,,enter the number of your name with your right hand,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,buy sell and eat,,,,,,,,,,,,,,eventually they will take you all and drag you away from the r.f.i.d sites,,,,,,,,they will drag you by your feet,,,,,,,,,,all of you will have a "pin number in your fore-head",,,,,,,,,,,,,you see you keep trying to play "red neck,,and your are burring silver dollars in your back yard,,,in mason jars",,,and your costing the bankers a lot of money,,,,,,,,,,,,,dig up the gold and sell it to the dentist while there is still a market,,,,,,,,,,,dig up the silver and melt it into earrings,,,,,,,,,,and go ahead and get ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"the pin number in your fore-head",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,yea you are afraid of the cartoons,,,,,,,,,,and no one can calculate the pin-number in your fore-head,,,,,,,but he that has wisdom,,,,,,,,,,and that is you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,,,

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