Should home churches be required to meet ordinance zones?

[violakat]

Arizona Preacher Facing Jail Time for Holding Home Worship Meetings | Christian News Network

Basically, a preacher started having private Bible Studies in his home with a few friends.However, according to AZ, he is hosting a public worship service.

 

[Dude653]

How is it public if it is in his home?? That makes no sense....

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

Freedom of religion... unless you're Christian. Pretty much the typical hypocritical actions taken against God's people or anyone against the "world's" view of what's right (which we know is contrary to God).

 

[suriturbo]

How is it public if it is in his home?? That makes no sense....

@Dude653. It seems to me,these days people have a problem with Christians no matter what.In my opinion,the only kind of Christian the world is ok with,are the people who identify themselves as Christians but the life they live and opinions they have concerning certain issues,such as abortion,homosexuality and believing all roads lead to God,line up with the way most of the world view certain issues.This man had church in HIS home.I don't understand what the problem is.

 

[Moe]

This is just the beginning of things to come. Next, you won't be able to have a cook out without having a valid health department license. This is what the obama health care is about. Not so much about medical coverage is it is about the government having more and more of our freedoms taken away. Next, must buy a certain car, boat, washer, dryer you name it and it's on the list. The world hated Jesus, so you know that they hate us...Cheers

 

[suriturbo]

This is just the beginning of things to come. Next, you won't be able to have a cook out without having a valid health department license. This is what the obama health care is about. Not so much about medical coverage is it is about the government having more and more of our freedoms taken away. Next, must buy a certain car, boat, washer, dryer you name it and it's on the list. The world hated Jesus, so you know that they hate us...Cheers

The world hated Jesus, so you know that they hate us...Cheers[/QUOTE]. Amen.That's exactly the point I was alluding to.

 

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

I watched a few more videos about this.
Having a cross on his lawn with a sign that has messages on it like any other church is not a great way to keep your service private. Nevertheless it's still wrong.

 

[loveme1]

@Dude653. It seems to me,these days people have a problem with Christians no matter what.In my opinion,the only kind of Christian the world is ok with,are the people who identify themselves as Christians but the life they live and opinions they have concerning certain issues,such as abortion,homosexuality and believing all roads lead to God,line up with the way most of the world view certain issues.This man had church in HIS home.I don't understand what the problem is.

Yes, you are right no one minds the tolerant Christian that is still of this "world".

You start sharing the the truth and your beliefs and you become a "bigot" and anti this and anti that.... phobia is often used.....
I will share the scripture that came to me below:

John 15

18If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin. 23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 24If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 25But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

 

[suriturbo]

Yes, you are right no one minds the tolerant Christian that is still of this "world".

You start sharing the the truth and your beliefs and you become a "bigot" and anti this and anti that.... phobia is often used.....
I will share the scripture that came to me below:

John 15

@loveme1. Amen.Thank's for posting this scripture.It explains why the Christians who follow in Jesus Christ foot steps are hated on more than the one's that just identify as born again Christians,but live a life that's in step with the world.I guess Jesus knew that his follower's would experience hatred towards them.And might wonder,what's the reason for so many people hating them.But Jesus words explain the reason for this hatred clearly.And for me,John chapter15,verses18-27 is encouraging because I know the only thing that's important,is making sure I spend eternity in heaven.And any hatred that I might experience here on earth,is all worth the final out come.Which is being in peace with God forever.Instead of being concerned how people here on earth might think what I believe is hateful.Or being worried about having opinions that will put me in the minority.Behaving in this manner,basically means you're more concerned about pleasing people,than pleasing your creator,which is God in heaven.I also think that it demonstrates rejection/ denial of God's word(Bible).And as I'm sure Bible believing Christians are aware,if you deny Jesus(which includes his word,Bible)in front of man.Then Jesus will deny you in front of his father(God).And if that happens,you won't be spending eternity in heaven.You will be forever tormented in hell,for all eternity.And for what?Just to fit in with this God rejecting world.It isn't worth it.

 

[Wesley]

In May 2007, plaintiffs submitted plans to construct a building they could use for bible studies and worship. This application was withdrawn after Mattox moved for a change in the parking requirements for places of worship in December 2007. Plaintiffs then filed for a building permit to erect a structure in their backyard in November 2008. A permit was issued in 2009 after reassurance from plaintiffs that the structure "would not be used for a public place of worship," First Amended Complaint ("FAC") at 9 and the structure was built. Plaintiffs aver that the building was not advertised as a public place of worship. Each week, about forty to fifty of plaintiffs' family and friends would gather for bible studies or worship. On June 11, 2009, plaintiffs were served with a search warrant and city inspectors searched their property. During the inspection, plaintiffs allege that Defendant Police Officer Oscar Cortez took a sign laying face down in the front yard that advertised dates and times for Christian worship and placed it against a tree. As a result of the inspection, which revealed building and zoning violations, defendant City Inspector Frank Dancil issued a notice of violation to plaintiffs.


Plaintiff Michael Salman was ultimately convicted of sixty-seven building and zoning code violations in 2010 by the Phoenix Municipal Court. He is appealing his conviction. In the meantime, plaintiffs continue to worship at their residence with family and friends. Defendant City of Phoenix filed charges against Suzanne Salman in January 2011 for violating the city's sign ordinance by placing a sign with biblical scripture in the plaintiffs' front yard. Michael Salman was again charged with violating seven building codes on March 21, 2011.


FindACase™ | Michael H. Salman; Suzanne Salman v. City of Phoenix; Claude Mattox; Unknown Mattox; Oscar Cortez

So long as they're not affecting their neighbors, I think they should be able to get a zoning waiver, or get rezoned, to permitthe. But so long as it's zoned the way it is, they should obey the local ordinances. Forty or fifty people is an awful lot of people, though. I can't imagine the neighbors had that in mind when they bought their homes there.

We can't pick and choose which laws we will or won't obey. Well, we can, but we have to expect legal repercussions when we choose to ignore zoning or any other laws. There's a right way and a wrong way to go about it, and it appears they're going about it the wrong way.

 

[Jordache]

This is a public service if he's advertising it publicly. I hate to play devils advocate, but we live in a society with laws. Maybe it was ignorance. Maybe it was arrogance. But the fact is everyone follows zoning laws and when he started advertising on his lawn, it became public. Neighbors have a right to complain even if we don't agree with their complaints. Besides, 40-50 is a huge gathering even for a private one. Imagine all the noise generated.

 

[Blu_Bug]

Arizona Preacher Facing Jail Time for Holding Home Worship Meetings | Christian News Network

Basically, a preacher started having private Bible Studies in his home with a few friends.However, according to AZ, he is hosting a public worship service.

I would tell HIM to obey the law and change His bible study place.....simple thing to do.

I wouldnt want a DOG mill next to my home, but i dont see that as bad........laws are for all

God told man to obey the laws of the land as long as thy dont conflict with HIS laws.........

 

[G4JC]

Interesting to see Arizona doing it too. California did it last year:
Freedom of Religion? Calif. Couple Fined for Hosting Bible Study in Home

Personally I think it's separation of church and state and the state should stay out of it. They should be focusing on the scammers Senator Chuck Grassley pointed out and leave homechurches alone. It's their own private property and their own liberty to do what they will with it.

Legal anaylsis - House Church Meetings: A Legal Analysis (Gallagher)

I would say Happy Forth of July, but alas, the constitution has died.
The death of the U.S. Constitution
*tune plays for it's funeral*
And don't forget the Bill of Rights soon to follow if it didn't die even before the constitution did.

 

[violakat]

This is a public service if he's advertising it publicly. I hate to play devils advocate, but we live in a society with laws. Maybe it was ignorance. Maybe it was arrogance. But the fact is everyone follows zoning laws and when he started advertising on his lawn, it became public. Neighbors have a right to complain even if we don't agree with their complaints. Besides, 40-50 is a huge gathering even for a private one. Imagine all the noise generated.

maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything about the advertisments. Will go back and look for that.

 

[psychomom]

Is this just a sign of things to come? As more and more of the true Family leave established churches to seek His righteousness, we probably ought to expect the enemy to hunt us down, and to be persecuted for it.
I went to a homeschool conference many, many years ago (1980s) in which Mike Farris, respected lawyer and Constitutional scholar, explained that the (then) recent decision of SCOTUS meant, essentially, that religious freedom was dead in this country.

494 U.S. 872
and
Employment Division v. Smith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The case was carefully chosen, according to Farris, because who's gonna support peyote smoking, esp. when it's against current state law to even possess it? But the upshot of it, in the courts, is that the rights of the individual to worship freely come after the rights of the compelling interest of the gov't.

And G4JC, I'm standing at attention as taps is played.
~ellie

 

[Nautilus]

That is not quite what happened in Smith. the gist of the actual ruling is that since the law targets everyone equally regardless of religion it isn't actually restricting the freedom of religion. "It is a permissible reading of the [free exercise clause]...to say that if prohibiting the exercise of religion is not the object of the [law] but merely the incidental effect of a generally applicable and otherwise valid provision, the First Amendment has not been offended....To make an individual's obligation to obey such a law contingent upon the law's coincidence with his religious beliefs, except where the State's interest is 'compelling' - permitting him, by virtue of his beliefs, 'to become a law unto himself,' contradicts both constitutional tradition and common sense.' To adopt a true 'compelling interest' requirement for laws that affect religious practice would lead towards anarchy."

 

[rauleetoe]

Arizona Preacher Facing Jail Time for Holding Home Worship Meetings | Christian News Network

Basically, a preacher started having private Bible Studies in his home with a few friends.However, according to AZ, he is hosting a public worship service.

I pray there will be people who rally behind this pastor and get this charge dropped. It is his house! Now the state are going to tell you what you can do in your home, even if its a small group or bible study? I want to know who were the neighbors who ratted him out, because obviously someone ratted him out.

We gotta pray for this man, this is just proof of the lengths our governent will go to control us.

 

[rauleetoe]

This is just the beginning of things to come. Next, you won't be able to have a cook out without having a valid health department license. This is what the obama health care is about. Not so much about medical coverage is it is about the government having more and more of our freedoms taken away. Next, must buy a certain car, boat, washer, dryer you name it and it's on the list. The world hated Jesus, so you know that they hate us...Cheers

Yea so much for us having Christian leadership..that's all gone.

 

[Nautilus]

I pray there will be people who rally behind this pastor and get this charge dropped. It is his house! Now the state are going to tell you what you can do in your home, even if its a small group or bible study? I want to know who were the neighbors who ratted him out, because obviously someone ratted him out.

We gotta pray for this man, this is just proof of the lengths our governent will go to control us.

Well considering he had a sign in the front yard and 40-50 people at this 'house service' i wouldnt be surprised if someone did. I would have, just because that many people would be disruptive coming and going and I wouldnt want it right next door for any reason. Maybe instead of sitting around in this 'oh woe are us, we are soo dreadfully persecuted' mindset look at the fact that what this guy was doing was probably causing a disruption in the area and also with that many people there probably are fire codes and all sorts of other stuff he was breaking. He wasnt mr. innocent.

Im a christian too but the lengths some of you will go to trying to play the victim are embarrassing.

 

[violakat]

Well considering he had a sign in the front yard and 40-50 people at this 'house service' i wouldnt be surprised if someone did. I would have, just because that many people would be disruptive coming and going and I wouldnt want it right next door for any reason. Maybe instead of sitting around in this 'oh woe are us, we are soo dreadfully persecuted' mindset look at the fact that what this guy was doing was probably causing a disruption in the area and also with that many people there probably are fire codes and all sorts of other stuff he was breaking. He wasnt mr. innocent.

Im a christian too but the lengths some of you will go to trying to play the victim are embarrassing.

Natuilus, apperently I keep missing this sign. Where in the article does it mention something about this. Your like the 2nd person on this post that's said something about that.