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I need another option. I pick:
The founding fathers wanted to exercise their christianity without political leaders forcing their way into the churches hierarchy. The problem never was "church leaders becoming political leaders." The problem was "political leaders becoming religious leaders". So I would say the nation was founded by christians as a christian nation, but in order to ensure they could truly exercise their chritianity, they had to make a nation that could be non-christian.
Then again, once you diverge from a political system with an absolute head or national religion, it becomes nearly impossible to classify the religion of the nation.
The founding fathers wanted to exercise their christianity without political leaders forcing their way into the churches hierarchy. The problem never was "church leaders becoming political leaders." The problem was "political leaders becoming religious leaders". So I would say the nation was founded by christians as a christian nation, but in order to ensure they could truly exercise their chritianity, they had to make a nation that could be non-christian.
Then again, once you diverge from a political system with an absolute head or national religion, it becomes nearly impossible to classify the religion of the nation.
To begin with each colony had their own religion and each had religious tests for office holders. But for a federal government to work it could not have those tests, that is why the wall of separation was put up in the constitution. Eventually each and every state eliminated the religious tests for office also but they were on the books for well over 100 years.
I wrote this on Independence day, and to really answer this question,we have to ask, what fruit is America in general producing?
2Ch 7:14 If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
God is calling America, and the whole world, to humble themselves, pray, and seek His face, and how? Through repentance, this is more than a mere confession then trust in something that was never done for you, such as Christ taking your place and wrath on the cross. God has nothing for the double minded who profess Christ, nor does He hear their prayers, along with those who ignore Him every day of their lives, as they seek the pleasures of the world, and their own way over Gods!
The only hope for America on this Independence Day I feel is total repentance on the scale of Nineveh, from the president down to the least. America can claim they are free, sing beautiful songs about being proud to be an American, and the worst one of all, God bless America, that lulls them into a false sense of security, taking God’s blessings as a sign all is well with their worldly and sinful lives, indulgence is the factor here I believe, clouding the minds of many, especially those in the churches who profess Christ!
The saying goes there is always a calm before the storm, and I believe as we see our nation and especially our churches falling deeper, and deeper into the snare of the devil, where evil is considered good, and good evil, and where the biblical standard of Christ crucified and the flesh subdued, is lost and forgotten, replaced with a false, worldly sin gospel, making it virtually impossible for anyone to come to a simple faith in Christ, through humbling themselves, praying, seeking God instead of their vain attraction and pleasures, and turning from their wicked and perverse ways. Until this happens, God will not hear from them today, or any day, and the land of America will still remain sick and dying a slow death, covered by many parties, fireworks, and indulgence, that offers a temporary anesthesia, numbing the mind and heart as they think Gods is with them because they have it all here in America!
God is no respecter of persons, He sees the heart of mankind, their thoughts, feelings, and motives, and what He is seeing especially coming from the churches today, is a gospel totally backwards from what He has laid out in scripture, telling mankind they do not have to stop sinning and obey, because they were born a sinner, and are sick to the core, but He then sent Jesus to be their covering and substitution. Thus you have many super star preachers telling the lost multitudes, that God doesn't see their wicked heart, He sees Jesus, and that obedience is an option, and the worse lie of all, God declares the sinner righteous while they are still unrighteous!
Until this changes, and the real gospel according to godliness is preached far and wide, where the baptism of repentance and an obedient faith is mandatory, then all is doomed, as we wait for the judgment to come upon America, as God has promised, but for now, He is being very patient and longsuffering, not wanting anyone to perish but ALL to come to repentance. And that will come from the few who are bold enough to stand against the religious system of lies, and stand boldly for the long lost gospel, that has the power to set mankind free from the bondage's of sin, once and for all. Then living an obedient crucified life, as the saints of old did, giving their lives to keep the word pure and undefiled!
Tommy 7-4-12
INDEPENDENCE OR BONDAGE?
Verse of the day for 7-4-12
2Ch 7:14 If My people, who are called by My name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from Heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
God is calling America, and the whole world, to humble themselves, pray, and seek His face, and how? Through repentance, this is more than a mere confession then trust in something that was never done for you, such as Christ taking your place and wrath on the cross. God has nothing for the double minded who profess Christ, nor does He hear their prayers, along with those who ignore Him every day of their lives, as they seek the pleasures of the world, and their own way over Gods!
The only hope for America on this Independence Day I feel is total repentance on the scale of Nineveh, from the president down to the least. America can claim they are free, sing beautiful songs about being proud to be an American, and the worst one of all, God bless America, that lulls them into a false sense of security, taking God’s blessings as a sign all is well with their worldly and sinful lives, indulgence is the factor here I believe, clouding the minds of many, especially those in the churches who profess Christ!
The saying goes there is always a calm before the storm, and I believe as we see our nation and especially our churches falling deeper, and deeper into the snare of the devil, where evil is considered good, and good evil, and where the biblical standard of Christ crucified and the flesh subdued, is lost and forgotten, replaced with a false, worldly sin gospel, making it virtually impossible for anyone to come to a simple faith in Christ, through humbling themselves, praying, seeking God instead of their vain attraction and pleasures, and turning from their wicked and perverse ways. Until this happens, God will not hear from them today, or any day, and the land of America will still remain sick and dying a slow death, covered by many parties, fireworks, and indulgence, that offers a temporary anesthesia, numbing the mind and heart as they think Gods is with them because they have it all here in America!
God is no respecter of persons, He sees the heart of mankind, their thoughts, feelings, and motives, and what He is seeing especially coming from the churches today, is a gospel totally backwards from what He has laid out in scripture, telling mankind they do not have to stop sinning and obey, because they were born a sinner, and are sick to the core, but He then sent Jesus to be their covering and substitution. Thus you have many super star preachers telling the lost multitudes, that God doesn't see their wicked heart, He sees Jesus, and that obedience is an option, and the worse lie of all, God declares the sinner righteous while they are still unrighteous!
Until this changes, and the real gospel according to godliness is preached far and wide, where the baptism of repentance and an obedient faith is mandatory, then all is doomed, as we wait for the judgment to come upon America, as God has promised, but for now, He is being very patient and longsuffering, not wanting anyone to perish but ALL to come to repentance. And that will come from the few who are bold enough to stand against the religious system of lies, and stand boldly for the long lost gospel, that has the power to set mankind free from the bondage's of sin, once and for all. Then living an obedient crucified life, as the saints of old did, giving their lives to keep the word pure and undefiled!
Tommy 7-4-12
T
You're saying that the Founding Fathers were Christians who wanted a Christian Nation, but in order for it not to become tyrannical, they had to set it up so that it could become a non-Christian nation, and it has become a non-Christian nation. Seems to me like that's exactly what option #2 says. Why didn't you pick that option?
No, I'm saying that they wanted a christian nation, but they didn't want politicians forcing their way into positions of religious leadership.
The problem was Kings declaring their holiness and forcing their way into religious institutions. Thereby forcing the religious people to conform to the political wishes instead of being able to follow their religious convictions.
So I'm saying in order to keep politicians out of their religious institution they had to establish a nation which could be governed by anyone, as long as said person didn't try to also lead their religious institutions.
And option 2 states "not anymore" implying that not only was it originally intended to be christian, but that it was actually founded as christian. I'm not claiming that it was ever founded as christian. I am claiming that in order to be individually free from the political structure, they sacrificed their desire for a christian nation and instead setup one that was led by christians (for a time) but refused to accept a national religion. Any nation without an absolute head can not truly be classified.
The problem was Kings declaring their holiness and forcing their way into religious institutions. Thereby forcing the religious people to conform to the political wishes instead of being able to follow their religious convictions.
So I'm saying in order to keep politicians out of their religious institution they had to establish a nation which could be governed by anyone, as long as said person didn't try to also lead their religious institutions.
And option 2 states "not anymore" implying that not only was it originally intended to be christian, but that it was actually founded as christian. I'm not claiming that it was ever founded as christian. I am claiming that in order to be individually free from the political structure, they sacrificed their desire for a christian nation and instead setup one that was led by christians (for a time) but refused to accept a national religion. Any nation without an absolute head can not truly be classified.
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T
Yes, many European nations have Christianity, and/or a specific denomination, as their state "official" religion.
The Church of England (known in the US as "Episcopal" or "Anglican") is the official religion of England.
Scottland has its official Church as well.
Germany recognizes both Catholicism and the "Evangelische Kirche" (what we call "Lutheran" here in the states).
I'm pretty sure Sweden and Norway also still recognize Lutheranism as their official national religions, though I'm not positive.
Vatican City is its own theocracy, a separate entity from Italy. It's more of a city-state than a "nation," so maybe that doesn't count.
I think Greece also has the Greek Orthodox Church as its official state religion, so that would be a Christian Nation as well.
There may be others that I'm not aware of. I think France used to be Catholic "officially" but is not any more (I think not since the French Revolution). You could probably do some Wiki research and find more, but I'm lazy
The Church of England (known in the US as "Episcopal" or "Anglican") is the official religion of England.
Scottland has its official Church as well.
Germany recognizes both Catholicism and the "Evangelische Kirche" (what we call "Lutheran" here in the states).
I'm pretty sure Sweden and Norway also still recognize Lutheranism as their official national religions, though I'm not positive.
Vatican City is its own theocracy, a separate entity from Italy. It's more of a city-state than a "nation," so maybe that doesn't count.
I think Greece also has the Greek Orthodox Church as its official state religion, so that would be a Christian Nation as well.
There may be others that I'm not aware of. I think France used to be Catholic "officially" but is not any more (I think not since the French Revolution). You could probably do some Wiki research and find more, but I'm lazy
T
Ok, I'll buy that that is slightly different than option #3. They knew up front that if they didn't establish the separation, they would be in the same spot that had them fleeing Europe. They had no problem with leaders being Christian, as long as those leaders didn't try to tell them what to do.
But then that would be Option #4: They never intended it to be a "Christian nation," because they knew that would be asking for trouble. Is the reason you reject #4 because of the phrase, "most of the founding fathers weren't Christian"? I know there is a debate out there about whether Deists (the religion followed by most of the FFs) can be considered "Christianity" or not, with some people saying it is and others saying it isn't.
But then that would be Option #4: They never intended it to be a "Christian nation," because they knew that would be asking for trouble. Is the reason you reject #4 because of the phrase, "most of the founding fathers weren't Christian"? I know there is a debate out there about whether Deists (the religion followed by most of the FFs) can be considered "Christianity" or not, with some people saying it is and others saying it isn't.
You only have to look at the wealth that america keeps to a select few, it's policy on war, and it's middle eastern agenda. Its TV. Political system. Propaganda. Patriotism over godliness. Gun policy. Amongst other things. It may say Christian on the label but definitely, as a nation, is not one Christ would not be proud of.
The real issue for me is this question: are members of the Masonic lodges Christians. If you ask them one by one they probably would be offended that anyone would question their religion. But examining the Masonic literature it is anything but Christian, if anything it attempts to amalgamate all of the world's religions into a far more secular group think called "Wisdom Literature."
So many of our founding fathers were Free Masons and still attended their local churches. So it does raise a real question where their loyalty lays. But for all outward appearances they were all "good men." And considering how long ago they lived they were very well educated, many with extensive libraries from which they loaned out books. None of them could really be called "evangelical" but that calling had not yet been defined.
BTW the three part division of our government was not some divine inspiration it came from the Roman republic, a subject which all of them had studied during their education and many of them had books in their libraries about that Roman republic. I see nothing at all within the constitutional convention, except the daily prayers, that held any religious significance. So that there is no evidence at all that there was any sort of "divine inspiration" involved in making the choices that were made.
So many of our founding fathers were Free Masons and still attended their local churches. So it does raise a real question where their loyalty lays. But for all outward appearances they were all "good men." And considering how long ago they lived they were very well educated, many with extensive libraries from which they loaned out books. None of them could really be called "evangelical" but that calling had not yet been defined.
BTW the three part division of our government was not some divine inspiration it came from the Roman republic, a subject which all of them had studied during their education and many of them had books in their libraries about that Roman republic. I see nothing at all within the constitutional convention, except the daily prayers, that held any religious significance. So that there is no evidence at all that there was any sort of "divine inspiration" involved in making the choices that were made.
T
Before you answer that, you'd have to define what, exactly, you meant by "Christian Values."
For example, the 10 commandments are part of the Hebrew Bible, so calling them "Christian Values" seems a little antisemitic to me: they're Jewish values if anything.
I mean, when someone says "Christian values," that sort of seems to imply (at least to me) that they're Christian as opposed to Buddhist, or Secular, or whatever. If that is not what one means, then why refer to them as "Christian" values? Why not just say "moral values" or something, if they are universal?
If you do intend to imply that Christian morals are somehow different (let alone better) than non-Christian morals, then you'd have to give specific examples, and then provide the evidence where one or more Founding Fathers addresses this value specifically.
You're going to have to provide evidence of that, too. (1) As others have questioned, do you consider branches such as Deists, or UU, or Freemasons, to be Christian? (2) If so, then you might be right. If not, then please provide a list of who you consider to be Founding Fathers, and what their religion was, so that we might verify that more than 50% of them were indeed Christian.
For example, the 10 commandments are part of the Hebrew Bible, so calling them "Christian Values" seems a little antisemitic to me: they're Jewish values if anything.
I mean, when someone says "Christian values," that sort of seems to imply (at least to me) that they're Christian as opposed to Buddhist, or Secular, or whatever. If that is not what one means, then why refer to them as "Christian" values? Why not just say "moral values" or something, if they are universal?
If you do intend to imply that Christian morals are somehow different (let alone better) than non-Christian morals, then you'd have to give specific examples, and then provide the evidence where one or more Founding Fathers addresses this value specifically.
You're going to have to provide evidence of that, too. (1) As others have questioned, do you consider branches such as Deists, or UU, or Freemasons, to be Christian? (2) If so, then you might be right. If not, then please provide a list of who you consider to be Founding Fathers, and what their religion was, so that we might verify that more than 50% of them were indeed Christian.
J
I'm not sure why it matters. It's not a Christian country at all at the present. It is in so many was an abomination, and it amazes me we haven't been crushed like Sodom and Gomorrah. Whether it was in the past or not is an irrelevant point. It isn't now, and won't be again. Preach the Gospel folks. Rep the king.
