Pope Francis Reaching Out To Celebrity Word Of Faith Pastors

[1still_waters]

Pope Francis is starting a pattern of reaching out and trying to establish unity with the celebrity pastors who adhere to word of faith type doctrines. Those holding such beliefs are highly suspect to begin with, and it's strange that he's choosing these types of ministers and ministries to unite with.

On January 21st, 2014, Kenneth Copeland Ministries received this video message directly from Pope Francis. Kenneth Copeland published it to their Youtube channel.

[video=youtube;eulTwytMWlQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulTwytMWlQ[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulTwytMWlQ

On May 2, 2014 James Robison Ministries announced a message from Pope Francis. Robison is a charismatic celebrity minister.

I believe in the importance of unity among those who know Christ, who profess to be “Christians”. Remember that was not a title the New Testament believers gave themselves; it was what they were called by their accusers who witnessed a change through their commitment to Christ as the Messiah. Today many among Protestants and Catholics call themselves “Christians” merely because they are part of a religious group. And there is no noticeable difference.
Pope Francis on LIFE TODAY | James Robison

June 2014 Pope Francis meets with Joel Osteen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKj_PrDHxbI#t=16

This potential unity between Rome and the word of faith movement is concerning.

First because Roman Catholicism still stands against justification by grace through faith alone. They declare anyone anathema who adheres to this. It's in their own Council of Trent.

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."Council of Trent: Canons on Justification. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Secondly because the word of faith Jesus is portrayed as more of a divine principle that is manipulated through proper words, affirmations, declarations, and thoughts. Word of faith Jesus isn't sovereign.

You have a dangerous mix when one movement denies the biblical doctrine of justification by faith through grace alone, and the other movement has a deity who is more like a manipulatable divine principle. This dangerous mix can put Christians into bondage to works. This yoke results in superstitious people who are afraid to think or proclaim the wrong words. This yoke results in people always seeking to get God's grace through sacraments and works.

It's a unity built on our works, and not on the ONE who did the work on the cross.

Finally it's a dangerous unity because for many the litmus test may become the presence of tongues, miracles, signs and wonders. People may accept a religion that denies justification by grace through faith alone, simply because they see tongues, and signs, etc. People may accept a works gospel, out of an undue desire to be "united". They will see the presence of these things and think, "Well surely God is at work amongst them."

 

[GodIsSalvation]

I watched the first video of Pope Francis to Copeland. Don't know much about Copeland so I won't speak on him. I liked Pope Francis' message though. He is spot on.

 

[1still_waters]

I watched the first video of Pope Francis to Copeland. Don't know much about Copeland so I won't speak on him. I liked Pope Francis' message though. He is spot on.

He's calling to unite as brothers, but the Roman Catholic church calls anyone cursed who believes justification and salvation is by grace through faith alone. You can't unite with someone who says it's Jesus + works. That person cannot be a brother and can't be united with. Especially when their own dogma declares you anathema/cursed.

CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."Council of Trent: Canons on Justification. | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

This would be a false unity, and a unity of bondage and not peace.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Looking at both these Canons it seems to me they imply anyone who calls himself saved is not saved, but rather salvation comes from Jesus alone. And I can see no biblical reason why this is not true.

Therefore is not a call for a return to unity of the Christians justified, even necessary, in this very dark era we live in?

And just to make clear I am not a Catholic nor do I attend any of man's churches. I do however find the Charismatics and Catholics to be the most aligned with the Bible, therefore if at the least these two Christian factions could unite, I think there is a lot of good in the name of Jesus such a unity could provide.

 

[1still_waters]

Looking at both these Canons it seems to me they imply anyone who calls himself saved is not saved, but rather salvation comes from Jesus alone. And I can see no biblical reason why this is not true.

Therefore is not a call for a return to unity of the Christians justified, even necessary, in this very dark era we live in?

And just to make clear I am not a Catholic nor do I attend any of man's churches. I do however find the Charismatics and Catholics to be the most aligned with the Bible, therefore if at the least these two Christian factions could unite, I think there is a lot of good in the name of Jesus such a unity could provide.

You're really misreading what the canons say.
Being in unity with rome would not be any different than being in union with mormonism.
Their official teaching is a major deviation from the gospel.

 

[1still_waters]

Roman Catholicism also considers water baptism as a means of receiving salvation.
Straight from their Vatican site.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:[SUP]3


[/SUP][SUP]1991 [/SUP]Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[SUP]40

[/SUP]1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:[SUP]48


[/SUP]

 

[1still_waters]

This part of their catechism says we can merit grace for ourselves, meaning it's not just grace, it's grace merited by self.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

 

[GodIsSalvation]

And all these doctrines on baptism and grace are biblically sound. Therefore I see no real reason to contend against them.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

francis seems to be eager to make friends with everyone -except- for conservative christians...

 

[1still_waters]

And all these doctrines on baptism and grace are biblically sound. Therefore I see no real reason to contend against them.

You think saving faith is conferred through baptism?

 

[GodIsSalvation]

You think saving faith is conferred through baptism?

I believe salvation is given by Jesus and baptism is a show of faith in Jesus, though baptism in and of itself is no gurantee of salvation. Hence why I have not been baptised yet and am quietly and patiently on the lookout to find which church/denomination is able to properly give the rite of baptism. So far I am torn between the Catholics and Charismatics as they are the two denominations most closely aligned to the Bible.

 

[1still_waters]

I believe salvation is given by Jesus and baptism is a show of faith in Jesus, though baptism in and of itself is no gurantee of salvation. Hence why I have not been baptised yet and am quietly and patiently on the lookout to find which church/denomination is able to properly give the rite of baptism. So far I am torn between the Catholics and Charismatics as they are the two denominations most closely aligned to the Bible.

RCism says that baptism is more than a sign.
Read it again.
I think your desire for unity is blinding you

[SUP]1991 [/SUP]Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[SUP]40

[/SUP]Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Recommended reading:

1. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record-60.html#post1578975
2. http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record-60.html#post1579100

 

[GodIsSalvation]

RCism says that baptism is more than a sign.
Read it again.
I think your desire for unity is blinding you

[SUP]1991 [/SUP]Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[SUP]40

[/SUP]Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

I would think Justification is indeed conferred in the correct Baptism just look when John the Baptist baptize Jesus and the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove or when the Pentecost in Acts happened how fiery tongues overlaid the followers of the Christ and baptized them.

So again, with how this doctrine is worded this is sound by the Bible.

In fairness though I have not seen any or all the various Catholic sects baptizing anyone or had such done myself. So how they actually go about doing the baptism and what happens, I do not know if the actual ritual happens as the Bible or their doctrines describe such as.

 

[1still_waters]

I would think Justification is indeed conferred in the correct Baptism just look when John the Baptist baptize Jesus and the Holy Spirit descended on him like a dove or when the Pentecost in Acts happened how fiery tongues overlaid the followers of the Christ and baptized them.

So again, with how this doctrine is worded this is sound by the Bible.

In fairness though I have not seen any or all the various Catholic sects baptizing anyone or had such done myself. So how they actually go about doing the baptism and what happens, I do not know if the actual ritual happens as the Bible or their doctrines describe such as.

The implication of the below is that when you baptize a baby the baby becomes justified.

[SUP]1991 [/SUP]Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[SUP]40

[/SUP]Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The implication of the below is that when you baptize a baby the baby becomes justified.

[SUP]1991 [/SUP]Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:[SUP]40

[/SUP]Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

I am a bit leery of baby baptism and baptism done by possibly heretical sects too. However, it is possible I suppose in the legit Baptism that a baby could be baptised. Though I personally find it hard for a baby to confess, much less talk, and be baptised, but it is also not unheard of for the righteous to be righteous thanks to God from a very young age in the Bible such as John the Baptist, Samuel, Samson, etc.

 

[crossnote]

It would stand to reason that groups like Word of Faith, mystical christians, experience oriented christians etc., would easily fall prey to Rome's wooing is because they have little doctrinal anchor to keep them from drifting into error.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2Ti 4:2-3)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:14)

 

[1still_waters]

It would stand to reason that groups like Word of Faith, mystical christians, experience oriented christians etc., would easily fall prey to Rome's wooing is because they have little doctrinal anchor to keep them from drifting into error.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; (2Ti 4:2-3)

That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:14)

Being aware of "fanaticism" and "enthusiasts", should really be paid more attention to.

 

[jb]

Pope Francis is starting a pattern of reaching out and trying to establish unity with the celebrity pastors who adhere to word of faith type doctrines. Those holding such beliefs are highly suspect to begin with, and it's strange that he's choosing these types of ministers and ministries to unite with.

On January 21st, 2014, Kenneth Copeland Ministries received this video message directly from Pope Francis. Kenneth Copeland published it to their Youtube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eulTwytMWlQ

On May 2, 2014 James Robison Ministries announced a message from Pope Francis. Robison is a charismatic celebrity minister.


June 2014 Pope Francis meets with Joel Osteen



This potential unity between Rome and the word of faith movement is concerning.

First because Roman Catholicism still stands against justification by grace through faith alone. They declare anyone anathema who adheres to this. It's in their own Council of Trent.



Secondly because the word of faith Jesus is portrayed as more of a divine principle that is manipulated through proper words, affirmations, declarations, and thoughts. Word of faith Jesus isn't sovereign.

You have a dangerous mix when one movement denies the biblical doctrine of justification by faith through grace alone, and the other movement has a deity who is more like a manipulatable divine principle. This dangerous mix can put Christians into bondage to works. This yoke results in superstitious people who are afraid to think or proclaim the wrong words. This yoke results in people always seeking to get God's grace through sacraments and works.

It's a unity built on our works, and not on the ONE who did the work on the cross.

Finally it's a dangerous unity because for many the litmus test may become the presence of tongues, miracles, signs and wonders. People may accept a religion that denies justification by grace through faith alone, simply because they see tongues, and signs, etc. People may accept a works gospel, out of an undue desire to be "united". They will see the presence of these things and think, "Well surely God is at work amongst them."

Double yawn...

 

[mailmandan]

This part of their catechism says we can merit grace for ourselves, meaning it's not just grace, it's grace merited by self.

2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

In its official writings, the Roman Catholic church insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven on account of Christ alone. Something more is required. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. It's basically salvation by grace through faith "infused with works" and those works become meritorious for salvation. You must also pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings.