Are Cultural Christians Harming Christianity?

[Tintin]

Questions:

1. Do you feel that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of society in your part of the world? Are their numbers growing or shrinking, and why?

2. If so, do you see this as harmful to the Christian community of believers, or is it beneficial?

3. How do Cultural Christians help a community?

4. How do they harm a community?

5. Why do people as a whole have such a hard time realizing that Christianity is not a "cultural" religion that can be latched onto without sincere personal faith?


1. Hello! I hail from a huge island, a moderate-sized continent and a large country with a low population - Australia.

Australia was initially founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs and values (our first non-natives were the British and Germans). We used to have a strong Christian culture here, but it was probably never as strong as in the good ol' US of A. That said, our beliefs and values as a nation are crumbling and there are less and less Christians here, cultural or otherwise. Don't get me wrong, there are still believers and we still have many people who claim to be Christians but have never (or rarely) crack open a Bible, let alone read it. We have so much knowledge and yet, we live in biblically illiterate times.

I'm a Lutheran, but first and foremost a Christian. I'm proud of my heritage (we were some of the first free settlers to arrive in South Australia) but I don't place stock in the spiritual lineage of being a Lutheran (there's no point). I think you can find cultural Christians in any denomination. I think even Martin Luther would have trouble with many Lutheran churches (a great emphasis on the Word, not much of a focus on the Holy Spirit and how the two work hand-in-hand).

I don't think people realise how much the Western World owes to the Judeo/Christian beliefs and values upon which their foundations have been based. Ask atheists and agnostics their preferred places to live and most will still list a country with basic human rights etc - and guess what? Those countries are those built on Judeo/Christian beliefs and values. There's something to be said for serving the Truth.


2. Politics and faith don't really mix in Australia. I don't know much about the world of politics, but I know enough here to know that they have very little to do with each other. I think cultural Christianity is largely detrimental to Christianity as a whole, but it has a few pros (as stated in other posts).


3-5. I don't know what else to add. These questions have already been answered sufficiently.

 

[ChandlerFan]

1. Do you feel that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of society in your part of the world? Are their numbers growing or shrinking, and why?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't say that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of the demographic where I live, but I do believe their numbers are growing. One primary reason I would cite for this is a relatively new term called moralistic therapeutic deism. The basic premise behind MTD is that people look to God as sort of an inspirational, all-powerful being whose end goal is each person's individual happiness (that's the therapeutic part). The goal of life, then, is to be the best person you can be, however you define that.

2. If so, do you see this as harmful to the Christian community of believers, or is it beneficial?

Personally, I believe it is more harmful than good because there isn't a gospel foundation in place. Many people who attended church in the past have grown discouraged when it appeared as though they were required to live up to a certain standard in order to be a part of a Christian community, or they were ridiculed for their past or even their present in some way. For people who aren't believers, they look at Christianity and see the same thing. They don't see a relationship, they see rules. They don't see joy, they see begrudging submission.

You also mentioned that Cultural Christians have helped hold the line on issues like abortion and same-sex marriage, but I would actually say that they haven't really helped much. I actually think the reason that we are still where we are at as far as abortion goes is due to a lack of courage on the part of people who call themselves Christians. And for people who are Cultural Christians, or Moralistic Therapeutic Deists, I think they make up a significant portion of believers who are in favor of homosexual marriage today.

3. How do Cultural Christians help a community?

I really don't want to sound pessimistic about this haha. I honestly don't see a lot of good coming from nominal Christianity. I would say that they at least help us to see what happens when we don't preach the gospel and make Christ our treasure. But other than that, perhaps they might be in a unique position to plant a seed in the life of unbelievers, whether intentionally or not.

4. How do they harm a community?

I think this is mostly answered above

5. Why do people as a whole have such a hard time realizing that Christianity is not a "cultural" religion that can be latched onto without sincere personal faith?

I don't know that I could exactly pinpoint why, but the first thought that came to my mind was that perhaps people see how radically the lives of people do change when they become a Christian, that it is seen as a culture. And really if we're being honest, it actually is a culture, or in the very a subculture.

hi, I wanna add another question if that's ok....

How does one reach out to these cultural Christians if they believe they are already saved?

This is one of the reasons that I love Matt Chandler. He pastors a church in Dallas, Texas, and he has talked about how the mission before him at his church is to communicate the gospel to people who think they are saved because they don't drink or swear, or in other words preach the gospel to people who think they are saved but most likely are not. It is significantly more difficult to get through to someone who thinks they are saved if their hope is not truly found in the person and work of Christ.
The thing is, if a person bases their salvation on anything or anyone other than Christ's work on the cross, there is going to come a point where they reach the end of themselves and whatever false gospel they are believing in. So for the Cultural Christian, if they espouse belief in Christ but they are still basing their salvation on being a good person, what happens when they have a drug or sexual addiction or they do something they really regret? What happens when, in their mind, their sin outweighs their good works and they find themselves in a debt they know they can't climb out of? Or what happens when they realize that the thing(s) they are living for don't really satisfy?

It's at that point that they are going to be most open to hearing and accepting the gospel. They will be most open to facing the fact that they cannot save themselves, that their sins have already been paid for, and that God's love for them doesn't depend on their good works. But to take advantage of that opportunity, it's important to be active and intentional in relationship with them. I think that's the most effective way to reach Cultural Christians.

Those are my thoughts

 

[Lynx]

Quote for the day: "Everyone you ask around here is a Christian... I haven't met a sinner in fifteen years!"

JustinFromTwinCities: I don't know what the churches are like over there, but from what you describe they are nothing like my church. We only have about a hundred but we're more like a family than some genetically related families I know.

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

I hope no one thinks I am Lutheran-bashing here. One can easily substitute Presbyterian ...

Hey now. Let's not get carried away.

 

[psychomom]

the biggest problem with cultural Christianity that i can see
is its emphasis on moralism.

those who don't belong to God, attending 'do more, try harder' churches
have a sad tendency to see themselves
as doing okay...keeping the rules...hearing MOTS preaching every week.

it lowers the bar of God's Law to the point of our own performance,
and places a bar where there should be none on the Gospel.

don't get me wrong...there are actual Christians who are in that category.
but moralism is the enemy of the Gospel, with its emphasis on what you do
rather than what God in Christ has done.
in that way i can see cultural Christianity as a big problem. people may think they're spreading the Gospel, and they really, really aren't.

here in the Hudson Valley of NYS (aka: the devil's playground)
you're fortunate to find one in ten people who are truly saved, or care about the things God cares about.
but at least (i guess?) there aren't a lot of people running around thinking they belong to the Lord.

it is interesting, though...it's reflected in the way the state votes, and where tax dollars go,
what's taught in schools, and basically, what is deemed important.
(we care about your pets, but not about your children...)

so, yeah...cultural Christianity = moralism.
and moralism's bad, m'kay?

 

[Jeff_56]

Believe it or not, we are all hypocrits no matter how much we try to honor God or be like Christ.

Paul himself said this:

"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?" - (Romans 7:24 NIV)

..therefore we should not judge others no matter how far along they are on their walk as a christian.

a whole congregation of 'cultural christians' can all say they are all hypocrites ; but that doesn't make the martyrs of faith, the true believers, the ekklesia, hypocrites. that's the difference.

(even heretical ones, as defined by yahweh in scripture, and by RoboOp and all the admins on this site you are a visitor on, outnumber true ekklesia in the world; so heretical combined with cultural might outnumber the true faithful by more than 5 to 1; in many places, only yahweh knows).

a 'cultural' christian or a 'heretical' christian is not on the walk as a true christian. they might one day be, but by definition on this thread and on this site, they are not yet saved.

yahshua the messiah sternly warned his disciples to watch out for that which is false, and always to test everything - whether spirit or word - and verify, like the bereans, that all that claims to be true lines up with torah (scripture).

also, much more simply, the sheep know the shepherds voice, and follow him wherever he leads, even unto death(for their faith) without fear or doubt or hesitation. the true sheep have what the world and the cultural and the heretical cannot imitate - fearless faith, peace, joy, righteousness, and eternal life.

yes, even the world can see the difference. it is the cultural and the heretical who cannot.

all of these, the world, the cultural, and the heretical, may all one day be saved, if they will. (turn to jesus).

if they won't, no one can help them. this is true of every person on earth. yes, we all once were slaves of sin. the only truth, the only path to life, is jesus. he is the way, the truth, and the life, and apart from him, no one can see the father.

the point of this whole thread may be, don't think that being a member in any group saves the soul - it requires much more than that, and only those who the father draws to himself are able to be saved, so no matter what, seek the father in heaven.

 

[Nautilus]

To be fair I think a lot of these 'cultural christians' are the fault of the more hardcore 'evangelical christians.' They distance themselves from the ones with the tongues and the abortion posters and the anti-gay protests and end up in a grey middle area. Christian but not wanting to be associated with the ones who give christians the 'bigoted' stereotype.

 

[gypsygirl]

1. Do you feel that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of society in your part of the world? Are their numbers growing or shrinking, and why?

cultural christians aren't on my radar, and i don't really count them. to me cultural christians are as liberal as atheists, from my perspective, and i don't really expect more of them than i do non christians.

in fact, so-called (cultural) christians with their apparent freedom are probably MORE liberal that atheists and their ilk.

2. If so, do you see this as harmful to the Christian community of believers, or is it beneficial?

the only harm i can see is to themselves, such as deceiving themselves. instead, i think christians probably do plenty more damage to the community, with their pride, hypocrisy, and laziness.

3. How do Cultural Christians help a community?

i can't imagine how they would be an asset.

4. How do they harm a community?

it depends upon what you define as harm. perhaps in helping to perpetuate that christianity is a peer group or selective society as opposed to a group of forgiven sinners and the the body.

5. Why do people as a whole have such a hard time realizing that Christianity is not a "cultural" religion that can be latched onto without sincere personal faith?

i think it's just the error of sinful man. we want the social/saftey aspects of being a part of a community, while still indulging our sinful nature. this reminds me of a the folly of lukewarm christianity. we like what serves our purposes, especially what costs us nothing.

further, this topic reminds me of why the culture and meaningless groups such as the "unsaved christian culture" help establish why the church culture in general can be so very counter productive to our objectives.

on so many levels, i don't really relate to the christian culture, because i feel like so much of it encourages every negative association with group think and stifles the freedom of expression and color and basically, thinking for one's self and especially God's leading of one's life within the body. it's like the rules have become more important than all the principles, and the tail sometimes is wagging the dog. let's face it: a lot of the bible's teaching requires the distillation of principle, and there is a lacking of specificity. yet, many operate as if that's the opposite case.

several years ago i was recently begun attending a new church after moving to a different area. the pastor was joking along with several of us before evening church, and then talk turned to voting and candidates and issues. he then started joking about "how we'll be voting" and as he continued, i realized that he clearly was assuming that we, as church members were all going to be voting the only way that a christian does. as if there are no choices left for a christian. naturally this upset me, because i don't think most issues any more are really that easy, that black and white--and to make that assumption makes me question why one would think they are.

but again, it's this assumption that there is only one way to accomplish the objectives of a Jesus-following, obedient, bible-reading christian. *facepalm*

if there is one word that the bible speaks most of, i'd say it's love. love one another, love my people, for God so loved the world... the problem is, the more we cling to the value of group and society, the greater the shift away from personal responsibility and investment in individuals. it's like the lowest common denominator becomes the norm or the target. instead, i prefer to think about the bible's comparison of the body, not as a faceless herd, but rather many different parts that work in concert to bring forward a common objective. the emphasis is not on their similarity as much as their similar cause, and their differences are what makes them far more capable to do just that.

 

[CatHerder]

To be fair I think a lot of these 'cultural christians' are the fault of the more hardcore 'evangelical christians.' They distance themselves from the ones with the tongues and the abortion posters and the anti-gay protests and end up in a grey middle area. Christian but not wanting to be associated with the ones who give christians the 'bigoted' stereotype.

I get what you are saying, but I see it as more of having a casual Christianity - getting that "get out of Hell free" card but not really wanting much else to do with God.



time for a visit to the 80's - - [video=youtube;ylqCB3If54M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylqCB3If54M[/video]

 

[Nautilus]

Are you saying thats your viewpoint of 'cultural christian'? If so I would agree and say perhaps mine is just the difference in main stream vs evangelical.

 

[CatHerder]

One can be a cultural Christian and be a true believer. But one can also be into all the social trappings of church, being highly involved in the church's activities, fitting into all the cultural norms of American Christianity, such as the nuclear family, the stay at home mom, the house out in the suburbs...yet not actually being a believer.

We're supposed to be the church. It's not something we do, it's something we are.

 

[Cee]

Hmm,

Interesting questions. Here's what comes to my mind.

I think that while we may see some as cultural Christians, there might be others who see us as cultural Christians. Is our only barometer for a Christian really sin? Or shouldn't it be more of love? I'm not saying that sin isn't an issue, but I think what is a bigger issue is the thought process of true Christians so focused on their own sin and other people's sin that they have forgotten to love one another.

Why is this important & relevant? Because of the thought process that unbelievers can pretend to be like us. They might for a little while, but at one point fruit will always reveal itself. The issue I don't think is society because that's a powerless approach, but rather the issue is that we've forgotten how to be fruitful in a culturally relevant way.

Jesus met people where they were at. He simply loved people. But let's take this to the Scripture...

John 15:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Notice Jesus doesn't say it's by our theology, but this is what as a whole we've chosen to focus on. That's why we have division in the form of denominations. He doesn't even say by our love for the world. He says, our love for one another.

Jesus even goes on to say that He will sort the goats and sheep by this same methodology. If you love each other, you love Him. If you feed each other, you feed Him. Because He is the least of us. We are One with Him.

I think the question that comes to my mind is this, why are "unbelieving" Christians able to fool the world? Is it because we've been hiding behind a label and theology for too long? Forgetting the power of demonstration? I'm not saying theology isn't important, but I believe our love for each other and then ultimately the world will preach a better sermon than we ever could.

C.

 

[Lynx]

Catherder I'll match your trip to the 80s.

"There's a whole lot more than just preaching to the choir
Kneeling at the altar and paying our tithes
We've been treating God like He's happiness for hire
We've been playing marbles with diamonds"

[video=youtube;s_kwo7POvHo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_kwo7POvHo[/video]

"There's a whole lot more than raising lots of money
Building our churches and spreading our faith
Faith is just the dice that you roll to get lucky
We've been playing marbles... with diamonds"

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

1. Do you feel that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of society in your part of the world? Are their numbers growing or shrinking, and why?

Most certainly. I honestly don’t know if the number is growing or shrinking for sure. In my own personal experience, the number of cultural Christians seems to be shrinking because I know quite a few people who have newly come to the Lord—some who were once lukewarm Christians and some who were not Christian at all. But it’s also a possibility that it could be a growing population overall and that my experience only accounts for a small piece of reality.

2. If so, do you see this as harmful to the Christian community of believers, or is it beneficial?

If the population of cultural Christians is shrinking, that is ultimately a good thing. It either means that more cultural Christians are becoming serious about being Christians, or they are giving up Christianity altogether. The latter seems on the surface to be a negative thing for the Christian community, but keep in mind that God can make good out of anything. There are several instances where a person gave up Christianity, lived without it for a while, and came back to it for whatever their reasons may have been. Sometimes people rebel against Christianity, argue on the anti-Christian side of debates, and ostracize Christians as gullible, irrational fools. Others are not vicious non-Christians, but just have a lot of questions that need answers before they decide to be Christian. In either case, it’s not uncommon that those people come (back) to Christianity, and when they do, they come armed with responses to every doubter’s question (be it curious or vicious) and to every anti-Christian argument and are solid in their beliefs. And why wouldn’t they be?—they’ve argued those same points themselves or have had those same questions, for which they have received compelling answers or else they would not have become Christian. For this reason, converts to Christianity are usually steadfast and purposeful in their newfound religion, because conversion is always a choice. (Or course, this is not to be confused with salvation, which is none of our doing.) So I think it’s better that a cultural Christian leave Christianity, if they must, to return to it serious, firm and unmoveable, rather than sticking around philosophically teetering with one foot in Heaven and the other in Hell.

If the population of cultural Christians is growing, that either means that serious Christians are falling (back) into complacency, or that non-Christians are converting to Christianity to be complacent. While neither possibility is good for the Christian community, only the former is likely, since people typically convert with conviction and purpose.

3. How do Cultural Christians help a community?

Cultural Christians tend to concede that major commandments and warnings in the Bible should be followed. Chances are, though cultural Christians may tolerate some unbiblical things, they generally agree that heinous acts such as murder and rape are wrong. Though simply refraining from murder and rape is not enough to be Christ-like, it definitely is necessary, so cultural Christians often “help” by not hurting (which is not bad, but they don’t get a cookie for that). As someone has already mentioned, they also can see the value of doing good things, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, donating to charity, etc. and so cultural Christians can help by doing good works, albeit commonly inconsistently and/or distantly.

4. How do they harm a community?

Cultural Christians tend to let things slide and even support things that are unbiblical, either through ignorance by not reading the Word, or through just engaging in plain old heresy. “Nobody’s perfect” and “judge not, lest ye be judged” seem to be common mantras among cultural Christians and non-Christians alike, leading people to simply tolerate or even expect fornication, gossip, using the Lord’s name in vain, addiction, idolatry (which can look like addiction), drunkenness, sexual immorality, promiscuity, lust, violence (in word or in deed), adultery, and sorcery while convincing themselves that they are unworthy to point it out or demand any better from other individuals or groups they belong to. Cultural Christians also tend to be much less mindful of these actions in themselves, and are not likely to respond kindly when a more serious Christian is completely no-nonsense with these kinds of things. This is most definitely not good for any community, but I bet a lot of us unfortunately see this in our own communities with nobody wanting to speak out, so it just festers.

In other words, as a joint response to questions 3 and 4, cultural Christianity tends to be well-meaning, yet enabling of unbiblical deeds, while encouraging its “members” to remain passive as their surrounding community, perhaps including their own selves, is by all indication going to Hell in a hand basket.

5. Why do people as a whole have such a hard time realizing that Christianity is not a "cultural" religion that can be latched onto without sincere personal faith?

Because so many people did not have sincere personal faith before they called themselves Christian. They just were born in a household that is “Christian”, and live in a society where most people do not work on Sunday, the money says “in God we trust” and people say “thank God” every Friday. And that’s the extent of their Christian life, and they don’t necessarily see that they’re missing anything if that’s all they’ve known. For a lot of people, Christian is seen as the silent norm, where people are Christian unless otherwise stated. And since it’s the silent norm, they feel that people can Christian and just be “normal” and not a “Jesus freak” or anything, so going any further is not necessary, so they’re fine if they don’t want to and never make the effort.

 

[ahavah]

Hmm,

Interesting questions. Here's what comes to my mind.

I think that while we may see some as cultural Christians, there might be others who see us as cultural Christians. Is our only barometer for a Christian really sin? Or shouldn't it be more of love? I'm not saying that sin isn't an issue, but I think what is a bigger issue is the thought process of true Christians so focused on their own sin and other people's sin that they have forgotten to love one another.

Why is this important & relevant? Because of the thought process that unbelievers can pretend to be like us. They might for a little while, but at one point fruit will always reveal itself. The issue I don't think is society because that's a powerless approach, but rather the issue is that we've forgotten how to be fruitful in a culturally relevant way.

Jesus met people where they were at. He simply loved people. But let's take this to the Scripture...

John 15:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Notice Jesus doesn't say it's by our theology, but this is what as a whole we've chosen to focus on. That's why we have division in the form of denominations. He doesn't even say by our love for the world. He says, our love for one another.

Jesus even goes on to say that He will sort the goats and sheep by this same methodology. If you love each other, you love Him. If you feed each other, you feed Him. Because He is the least of us. We are One with Him.

I think the question that comes to my mind is this, why are "unbelieving" Christians able to fool the world? Is it because we've been hiding behind a label and theology for too long? Forgetting the power of demonstration? I'm not saying theology isn't important, but I believe our love for each other and then ultimately the world will preach a better sermon than we ever could.

C.

Awesome post, couldn't have said it better!

 

[thecreationtutor]

i hear are a lot of sinless perfectionists in Texas, that are doing a lot of harm

 

[seoulsearch]

i hear are a lot of sinless perfectionists in Texas, that are doing a lot of harm

I think they've migrated, seeing as the church I attend has 3 campuses, and the one near the biggest city (and therefore, draws the most attention) is being picketed by Westboro Baptist Church...

I guess we almost have to see it as an honor.

 

[cinder]

.
Questions:

1. Do you feel that Cultural Christians make up a significant portion of society in your part of the world? Are their numbers growing or shrinking, and why?

2. If so, do you see this as harmful to the Christian community of believers, or is it beneficial?

3. How do Cultural Christians help a community?

4. How do they harm a community?

5. Why do people as a whole have such a hard time realizing that Christianity is not a "cultural" religion that can be latched onto without sincere personal faith?

1) I think anyone and everyone has a tendency to pick and choose what they like from any religion. We all are probably guilty of having our pet passages of scripture and of ignoring the commands that make us too uncomfortable and stuff. I think our highly individualistic culture and the desire of many people to avoid setting down hard and fast principles by saying "that's something that should be between you and God" (yep I'm guilty of this too) means that we are losing accountability and therefore it is easier to people to put on a christian label without actually following Jesus. In some ways it may have been worse in previous generations (think US white slave owners going to church every week and using the Bible to justify owning and abusing slaves or Jane Austen novels where the clergy were more in it for the social position than because of true faith), but I think in the modern Western world, we're getting to a point where the term Christian is becoming meaningless because it is so broad and carries so many presuppositions.

2) I think the lack of accountability, and the lack of actually having to commit to "your side of the bargain" to expect to receive God's promises is harmful. We all need positive peer pressure, but we also have a lot of "cultural christians" who have been erroneously taught that God has promised X and then when X doesn't happen they give up on God.

3) Well ideally people trying to be moral and good can help a community avoid really blatant evil, though sometimes it just means that such evil happens and people just pretend it doesn't. I would hope that being a cultural christian would fill most people with some set of standards that there are just some things they won't do.

4) They make the label too broad and therefore mostly meaningless. For a lot of people being Christian means I think I'm basically a good, nice, friendly person who doesn't cause trouble or do anything really bad.

5) Religious affiliation is very much a cultural thing, but it rarely translates to true faith. Where I'm living now some of the local people will say that everyone follows Buddhism but when you ask them, they themselves rarely go to temples or pray or anything. Others will say there is no religion because the common spiritual beliefs are not codified into a formal religion, but they are careful to put the offerings on the household altar everyday. You won't find many cultural christians here. You will find people who prayed the salvation prayer with their foreign friends just to make their friend happy, but still don't self-identify as Christian. But the point is that a set of similar beliefs, a similar worldview if you will, is a huge uniting factor in a community. This isn't just a Christian problem, and if I can say one thing in favor of the US (and probably much of the West), it is that our society is free enough and diverse enough that you can most likely find nominal believers from many different religions living in the US.