For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

[Mitspa]

I know im going to get some negative feedback from folks, but I like to live on the edge and think it could be a helpful conversation for me and others if everybody plays nice

Its clear that God intended a order in a marriage between the man and the wife, if you believe the bible. I do believe in certain circumstances that woman would take the position as the representative head of the family, if the husband is unable or unwilling to walk in the truth.

 

[Jenizona]

I know im going to get some negative feedback from folks, but I like to live on the edge and think it could be a helpful conversation for me and others if everybody plays nice

Its clear that God intended a order in a marriage between the man and the wife, if you believe the bible. I do believe in certain circumstances that woman would take the position as the representative head of the family, if the husband is unable or unwilling to walk in the truth.

Oh... sorry, was there a question meant in this? Or just a general statement, and looking for people to share their opinions?

 

[Olerica]

I'm pretty sure that not too many would disagree with this the way you've stated it.

What does that look like to you, Mitspa? I don't mean to be confrontational, but the reality of your statement - the biblical principal can look very different from couple to couple.

 

[Jenizona]

I'm pretty sure that not too many would disagree with this the way you've stated it.

What does that look like to you, Mitspa? I don't mean to be confrontational, but the reality of your statement - the biblical principal can look very different from couple to couple.

I agree, stating a Biblical fact isn't much of a discussion starter, in my opinion! That's why I was prompting him for more.

 

[chickwithsticks]

I have a thought and since Mitspa left it slightly open to interpretation I hope he doesn't mind if my thought might risk a derail of OP.

Men are to be the head of a household and wives are to submit to their husbands. What is expected for those households where the husband either will not or cannot due to mental illness (for example)? To explain further, those circumstances where the mental illness isn't on the end of the severe spectrum but rather in the middle such as High functioning Asbergers where it is not incapacitating but severely limiting in some respects? How can a wife submit to her husband and respect his authority when his leadership abilities are significantly impaired? Of course prayer for his healing and her strength to support him but the wife will need to step into the role of spiritually leading the family. The church at times does not seem to understand this position nor support it.

I have no firm answer myself so just wondering if others had thoughts. It is a difficult situation for a woman to find herself in this place for many reasons. Yes I have experienced one form of this example but I have also walked with a few friends struggling through this.

Sorry if if I missed the intent of post.

 

[Olerica]

Yeah Jenizona - I think we cross posted.

And for the record? I'm not looking for a fight or anything, but there's not much to start a discussion.... yet.

 

[Mitspa]

Oh... sorry, was there a question meant in this? Or just a general statement, and looking for people to share their opinions?

Well a conversation or discussion would require more than just my opinion Truth is I don't have a established opinion on this issue as I do on other doctrinal issues. I try to look at some relationships between believers that seems to be working and that God is blessing and relate that to what I know is written in the New Testament.

 

[Mitspa]

I'm pretty sure that not too many would disagree with this the way you've stated it.

What does that look like to you, Mitspa? I don't mean to be confrontational, but the reality of your statement - the biblical principal can look very different from couple to couple.

I agree and I try to look at relationships in Christ that are working and productive.

 

[chickwithsticks]

I have a thought and since Mitspa left it slightly open to interpretation I hope he doesn't mind if my thought might risk a derail of OP.

Men are to be the head of a household and wives are to submit to their husbands. What is expected for those households where the husband either will not or cannot due to mental illness (for example)? To explain further, those circumstances where the mental illness isn't on the end of the severe spectrum but rather in the middle such as High functioning Asbergers where it is not incapacitating but severely limiting in some respects? How can a wife submit to her husband and respect his authority when his leadership abilities are significantly impaired? Of course prayer for his healing and her strength to support him but the wife will need to step into the role of spiritually leading the family. The church at times does not seem to understand this position nor support it.

I have no firm answer myself so just wondering if others had thoughts. It is a difficult situation for a woman to find herself in this place for many reasons. Yes I have experienced one form of this example but I have also walked with a few friends struggling through this.

Sorry if if I missed the intent of post.

**chickswithsticks jumps up and down waving arms ...as post got lost in thread due to slow typing **

 

[Mitspa]

I have a thought and since Mitspa left it slightly open to interpretation I hope he doesn't mind if my thought might risk a derail of OP.

Men are to be the head of a household and wives are to submit to their husbands. What is expected for those households where the husband either will not or cannot due to mental illness (for example)? To explain further, those circumstances where the mental illness isn't on the end of the severe spectrum but rather in the middle such as High functioning Asbergers where it is not incapacitating but severely limiting in some respects? How can a wife submit to her husband and respect his authority when his leadership abilities are significantly impaired? Of course prayer for his healing and her strength to support him but the wife will need to step into the role of spiritually leading the family. The church at times does not seem to understand this position nor support it.

I have no firm answer myself so just wondering if others had thoughts. It is a difficult situation for a woman to find herself in this place for many reasons. Yes I have experienced one form of this example but I have also walked with a few friends struggling through this.

Sorry if if I missed the intent of post.

I would agree outright that if the husband is unable or unwilling to answer the call of God in this area the woman for sure should take that responsibility.

 

[Jenizona]

I have a thought and since Mitspa left it slightly open to interpretation I hope he doesn't mind if my thought might risk a derail of OP.

Men are to be the head of a household and wives are to submit to their husbands. What is expected for those households where the husband either will not or cannot do to mental illness (for example)? To explain further, those circumstances where the mental illness isn't on the end of the severe spectrum but rather in the middle such as High functioning Asbergers where it is not incapacitating but severely limiting in some respects? How can a wife submit to her husband and respect his authority when it is significantly impaired. Of course prayer for his healing and her strength to support him but the wife will need to step into the role of spiritually leading the family. The church at times does not seem to understand this position nor support it.

I have no firm answer myself so just wondering if others had thoughts. It is a difficult situation for a woman to find herself in this place for many reasons. Yes I have experienced one form of this example but I have also walked with a few friends struggling through this.

Sorry if if I missed the intent of post.

Hey, chickwithsticks, I don't think you missed the intent, it seems pretty open-ended. Yeah, I agree, your premise is interesting.... but it doesn't necessarily take a disability for a woman to explore that part of her personality.

What if a man is just very passive and can't make a decision? Or doesn't know how to communicate with his wife? A woman might have to take the reins out of necessity, because sometimes a decision just has to be made.

By the way, "leadership" does not mean "making all the decisions," or "telling someone what to do." Just to clear that up for some of you who might think that's what it means.

 

[Olerica]

Ok, that's fair.

A the spiritual head of a household doesn't mean that the husband gets to lord it over his wife. If you look at the what the Bible says about how a husband is the head of the wife... and the HUGE responsibility that lays on his shoulders:

Ephesians 5:25-33 NKJV (I just find the NKJV is easier to read, honestly)

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”[b] 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

I'm glad I'm a woman and that my role is wife... maybe someday again. All I 'have' to do is respect and submit to the ministry of my husband as my husband and head. He's got to love me enough to lay down his life. He's got to love me like he loves his own body. He's responsible to God for the spiritual well being of our marriage/family.

Matthew Henry, in his exposition of the Old and New Testament says:

[h=1]“Women were created from the rib of man to be beside him, not from his head to top him, nor from his feet to be trampled by him, but from under his arm to be protected by him, near to his heart to be loved by him.[/h]Far too often women see men point to the Bible DEMANDING submission when, in all honesty? We are rather likely to easily submit if we are treated as well as our husband treats himself.

 

[chickwithsticks]

Hey, chickwithsticks, I don't think you missed the intent, it seems pretty open-ended. Yeah, I agree, your premise is interesting.... but it doesn't necessarily take a disability for a woman to explore that part of her personality.

What if a man is just very passive and can't make a decision? Or doesn't know how to communicate with his wife? A woman might have to take the reins out of necessity, because sometimes a decision just has to be made.

By the way, "leadership" does not mean "making all the decisions," or "telling someone what to do." Just to clear that up for some of you who might think that's what it means.

Thanks Jenizona and you are right there are so many different examples of barriers to being the spiritual head of a household and my example was one of many. I think my struggle revolves around the details of what that looks like and what God would expect in those situations. It seems simple at first glance I realize..man is not able or willing so woman steps in. There is a host of complications especially if children are involved as with the case a friend of mine is struggling through.

 

[Olerica]

Been praying about this, and hopefully this will help understand the reason why women can balk at the idea of submission:

Have you ever had a boss that always made the wrong decision? You knew that they knew you held the expertise in a certain area and they would refuse to listen to any suggestion you made just because you were in a subordinate role? Or they never considered how their decision affected you... only themselves? They just wanted you to comply with the rules and toe the line? Wouldn't you rather a boss who considered and consulted you as a partner in the business? Imagine the business was marriage.

One more point, for those of you gents in the process of wooing a woman or considering the same:
Do you know that the loving, tender, attention giving way you treat us when we are dating? We think that this is what we're buying into... that THIS is the man and behavior we'll get to enjoy in marriage (with added benefits when we are actually married). IF you don't plan on behaving that certain way AFTER marriage, do you know that we consider that you've lied to us and fooled us into marriage?

Do you consider that your behavior after marriage dictates to us our behavior after marriage? If you stop behaving in the loving, tender, attention giving way after marriage we feel justified in not being smitten with you.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Jenizona]

Been praying about this, and hopefully this will help understand the reason why women can balk at the idea of submission:

Have you ever had a boss that always made the wrong decision? You knew that they knew you held the expertise in a certain area and they would refuse to listen to any suggestion you made just because you were in a subordinate role? Or they never considered how their decision affected you... only themselves? They just wanted you to comply with the rules and toe the line? Wouldn't you rather a boss who considered and consulted you as a partner in the business? Imagine the business was marriage.

One more point, for those of you gents in the process of wooing a woman or considering the same:
Do you know that the loving, tender, attention giving way you treat us when we are dating? We think that this is what we're buying into... that THIS is the man and behavior we'll get to enjoy in marriage (with added benefits when we are actually married). IF you don't plan on behaving that certain way AFTER marriage, do you know that we consider that you've lied to us and fooled us into marriage?

Do you consider that your behavior after marriage dictates to us our behavior after marriage? If you stop behaving in the loving, tender, attention giving way after marriage we feel justified in not being smitten with you.

Just some food for thought.

Wow. I looked for a "standing ovation" button, but there wasn't one. Still...wow. Well said, Olerica.

 

[Mitspa]

I find it interesting that it seems that many women want a real godly man and will even fall for a guy they see as representing Christ to them. It has been my own experience that often, after the relationship is established based in large part on that guys ability to complete that godly role, that the man is often ask to compromise the very thing that was so important to begin with?

Sadly my last two relationships having ended based in part on my refusal to yield from what I know to be the position God would have me stand.

 

[chickwithsticks]

I'm not sure I clarified my thoughts on spiritual leadership and while this remains a current study and exploration for me this is where I believe I have landed at this time. Obviously no claims that this IS correct just my thoughts on the matter.

Scripture clearly shows equality of men and women in Galatians 3:28 and God has assigned the responsibility of spiritual leadership in the home to the husband Colossians 3:18-19

There is a lot of controversy in the church today around the precise meanings of these and other scriptures on the topic however I believe that families like any other organization need leadership to run smoothly and continue to grow in their faith and stewardship. I do not believe a man has or should have final decision making authority over all things pertaining to the household nor do I believe that is found in scripture, as that directly contradicts scripture that calls for him to love his wife as Christ loves the church.

A Godly man seeks the counsel of his wife in all things and together they draw on each other's strengths. Example: I know a family where the wife is an accountant and therefore they decided she would take the leadership role over the finances for the family as that made sense for them however the husband Accepts his role as the the spiritual leader in their home.

Spiritual leadership, from what I have come to understand/believe means that the husband remains committed to be the spiritual servant-leader and therefore is actively involved in his families spiritual growth and welfare. Actively seeks ways to help his family grow, assesses their strengths and weaknesses and constantly engages in leading his family in those areas. Wives also lead and encourage and actively seek the same but the husband has been assigned this primary responsibility which requires an intimate relationship with Christ.

In in connecting back to my original thoughts, when the husband is unwilling or unable to accept this responsibility I believe women must obviously assume this role in their families while bathing their husband in prayer it just has layers of complexities with it.

 

[Jenizona]

I find it interesting that it seems that many women want a real godly man and will even fall for a guy they see as representing Christ to them. It has been my own experience that often, after the relationship is established based in large part on that guys ability to complete that godly role, that the man is often ask to compromise the very thing that was so important to begin with?

Sadly my last two relationships having ended based in part on my refusal to yield from what I know to be the position God would have me stand.

This is awfully vague, I'm curious about your situation, but I understand if you don't want to go into detail in this particular arena! "Refusal to yield" just comes across as stubbornness, as in pitting one against the other. And yes, when you do that, there will be a clear loser.

Also, relationships are based on a lot more than "in large part on that guys ability to complete that godly role." They have to do with compatibility and physical attraction, as well.

And I don't really get what you mean by the man being asked to compromise his godly role... anyway, just a lot of confusion on my part, sorry! But anything I can do that would help illuminate the female mind (as much as I am able!) I'm more than willing to help out with!

 

[Mitspa]

I'm not sure I clarified my thoughts on spiritual leadership and while this remains a current study and exploration for me this is where I believe I have landed at this time. Obviously no claims that this IS correct just my thoughts on the matter.

Scripture clearly shows equality of men and women in Galatians 3:28 and God has assigned the responsibility of spiritual leadership in the home to the husband Colossians 3:18-19

There is a lot of controversy in the church today around the precise meanings of these and other scriptures on the topic however I believe that families like any other organization need leadership to run smoothly and continue to grow in their faith and stewardship. I do not believe a man has or should have final decision making authority over all things pertaining to the household nor do I believe that is found in scripture, as that directly contradicts scripture that calls for him to love his wife as Christ loves the church.

A Godly man seeks the counsel of his wife in all things and together they draw on each other's strengths. Example: I know a family where the wife is an accountant and therefore they decided she would take the leadership role over the finances for the family as that made sense for them however the husband Accepts his role as the the spiritual leader in their home.

Spiritual leadership, from what I have come to understand/believe means that the husband remains committed to be the spiritual servant-leader and therefore is actively involved in his families spiritual growth and welfare. Actively seeks ways to help his family grow, assesses their strengths and weaknesses and constantly engages in leading his family in those areas. Wives also lead and encourage and actively seek the same but the husband has been assigned this primary responsibility which requires an intimate relationship with Christ.

In in connecting back to my original thoughts, when the husband is unwilling or unable to accept this responsibility I believe women must obviously assume this role in their families while bathing their husband in prayer it just has layers of complexities with it.

Although I would agree with the intention of your post and its overall truth, I would just say that scriptures that describe men a woman as equal in that we are all justified in Christ and all are united in Christ, it does not negate other scripture that establishes the intention of God as it relates to are earthly position as men and women. All scripture is true and they cannot cancel each other out, but must build the truth of God from each precept and truth.

 

[chickwithsticks]

I find it interesting that it seems that many women want a real godly man and will even fall for a guy they see as representing Christ to them. It has been my own experience that often, after the relationship is established based in large part on that guys ability to complete that godly role, that the man is often ask to compromise the very thing that was so important to begin with?

Sadly my last two relationships having ended based in part on my refusal to yield from what I know to be the position God would have me stand.

I don't know the details of those relationships but I think I understand you are referring to those times when women may resist a strong Godly mans leadership as it appears to them to be controlling. However the women I have known who struggle in this area fall into Olerica's description(I hope I don't misconstrue Her intent -forgive me if I have) that men need to display a true scripture based understanding of that leadership and have a true intimate relationship with the Lord to assert this role correctly. The rub seems to come in to play when those components are missing. If a man acts ungodly and shows a pattern of ungodly decision making "authority" it is difficult for women to honor that and I don't believe we are called to do so. My post after this talks about that.

Olerica hope I didn't screw that up and wasn't trying to speak for you just agree with your thoughts earlier as I understood them

hope that makes sense Mitspa