Pre-Algebra Tutoring Question

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M

MollyConnor

Guest
#1
#1
Okay so I'm tutoring an 11 year old child in Pre-Algebra. He's very smart and as I was teaching him the Order of Operations (PEMDAS) he asked me where square roots and absolute values go. Do you all know? I was left dumbfounded. Where do they go? I told him I would get back to him.

Are they treated like exponents or parentheses?

P - Parentheses
E - Exponents
M - Multiplication
D - Division
A - Addition
S - Subtraction
 
M

MollyConnor

Guest
#2
#2
I'm thinking they are like parentheses and should be given priority in an expression. They are grouping symbols. Expressions really aren't and so that's probably why they come second. But I'm not sure since square roots are the inverse for exponents, I would think they should be treated the same? :confused::p
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#3
Aug 2, 2009
24,580
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#3
I don't see how absolute value would have anything to do with this unless the answer should be expressed in it. In that case it would come at the end. Square roots would be handled wherever they happen to be in the equation.

Did that sound right? I made it all up! :D Just kidding.... it should be right.

oh and I'm no mathmetician, just trying to go by common sense here.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#4
Jun 30, 2015
24,688
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#4
You are correct about square roots; treat them as exponents. As for absolute values, they only modify the numbers they embrace, so treat them as multipliers. Essentially, an absolute value is the embraced value multiplied by either (1) or (-1). Calculate the embraced value(s) first, then apply the absolute qualifier(s).

So,

|-2|*-2 = -4
|-2*2| = 4
 
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Olerica

Olerica

Banned
#5
Apr 15, 2014
2,050
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#5
That awkward moment when you read the first post and go "HUH??" and are glad that you don't have to do class maths anymore and that your accounting is simple maths.

what?

oh? Not this thread? Oh, ok... I'll go to that other thread.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#6
#6
Ok ..here is a good place to ask this question...how in the world can you multiply two negative numbers and get a positive ?

I think the folks in DC made that one up?
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#7
Aug 2, 2009
24,580
4,269
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#7
Dino246 said:
You are correct about square roots; treat them as exponents. As for absolute values, they only modify the numbers they embrace, so treat them as multipliers. Essentially, an absolute value is the embraced value multiplied by either (1) or (-1). Calculate the embraced value(s) first, then apply the absolute qualifier(s).

So,

|-2|*-2 = -4
|-2*2| = 4
Click to expand...
But aren't absolute values always supposed to be postive?
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#8
Aug 2, 2009
24,580
4,269
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#8
Mitspa said:
Ok ..here is a good place to ask this question...how in the world can you multiply two negative numbers and get a positive ?

I think the folks in DC made that one up?
Click to expand...
Yea I wonder how I can add two debits in my bank account. :rolleyes:
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#9
#9
Here in Australia, we have BEDMAS and BODMAS, but I've never heard of PEMDAS (B in BEDMAS and BODMAS = Brackets).
 
violakat

violakat

Senior Member
#10
Apr 23, 2014
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#10
zeroturbulence said:
But aren't absolute values always supposed to be postive?
Click to expand...
Only the numbers in the Absolute bracket are after you apply the absolute rule. Until the rule is applied, they can be either positive or negative.
 
kodiak

kodiak

Senior Member
#11
Mar 8, 2015
4,995
290
83
#11
MollyConnor said:
Okay so I'm tutoring an 11 year old child in Pre-Algebra. He's very smart and as I was teaching him the Order of Operations (PEMDAS) he asked me where square roots and absolute values go. Do you all know? I was left dumbfounded. Where do they go? I told him I would get back to him.

Are they treated like exponents or parentheses?

P - Parentheses
E - Exponents
M - Multiplication
D - Division
A - Addition
S - Subtraction
Click to expand...
MollyConnor said:
I'm thinking they are like parentheses and should be given priority in an expression. They are grouping symbols. Expressions really aren't and so that's probably why they come second. But I'm not sure since square roots are the inverse for exponents, I would think they should be treated the same? :confused::p
Click to expand...
I remember my algebra teacher saying that square roots count under parentheses because the sign is a grouping sign. He gave us the reasoning, so I just looked up the reasoning for that again..... the numbers within the sign are underneath that line. It is called a vinculum and is a grouping symbol. Apparently they used to use the vinculum a lot, but now not so much. So if you happen to come across a group of numbers that have a line over them, that counts as a grouping symbol too.

Absolute values also go under parentheses.
 
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U

Ugly

Guest
#12
#12
Tintin said:
Here in Australia, we have BEDMAS and BODMAS, but I've never heard of PEMDAS (B in BEDMAS and BODMAS = Brackets).
Click to expand...
But you guys are upside down from is remember. Hence the discrepancy. :rolleyes:
 
K

kenthomas27

Guest
#13
#13
Tintin said:
Here in Australia, we have BEDMAS and BODMAS, but I've never heard of PEMDAS (B in BEDMAS and BODMAS = Brackets).
Click to expand...
Uppercase P's are right side up lower case b's, stupid. Do I have to tell you Aussie's everything?
 
S

ServantStrike

Guest
#14
#14
Tintin said:
Here in Australia, we have BEDMAS and BODMAS, but I've never heard of PEMDAS (B in BEDMAS and BODMAS = Brackets).
Click to expand...
BEDMAS and BODMAS.

They sound like really bad viruses from really bad science fiction.

Even your math is scary in Australia.
 
Olerica

Olerica

Banned
#15
Apr 15, 2014
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#15
kenthomas27 said:
Uppercase P's are right side up lower case b's, stupid. Do I have to tell you Aussie's everything?
Click to expand...
Is this a joke? Because... uh... that's really insulting.

(and frankly, I don't care if I'm considered the "thought police", I don't think calling someone 'stupid' is ok)
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#17
Aug 2, 2009
24,580
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#17
Olerica said:
Is this a joke? Because... uh... that's really insulting.

(and frankly, I don't care if I'm considered the "thought police", I don't think calling someone 'stupid' is ok)
Click to expand...
No no, kenthomas is daffy duck's alter ego. You have to read it in daffy duck's voice ("thats schtupid" - with a lot of saliva). Daffy duck does say stupid a lot. He's just being in character. (Im serious)
 
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M

MollyConnor

Guest
#18
#18
ServantStrike said:
BEDMAS and BODMAS.

They sound like really bad viruses from really bad science fiction.

Even your math is scary in Australia.
Click to expand...
Actually, math is scary everywhere! :p
 
Olerica

Olerica

Banned
#19
Apr 15, 2014
2,050
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#19
zeroturbulence said:
No no, kenthomas is daffy duck's alter ego. You have to read it in daffy duck's voice ("thats schtupid" - with a lot of saliva). Daffy duck does say stupid a lot. He's just being in character. (Im serious)
Click to expand...
Huh. Perhaps this is the case, but I still think it's not something that should be tolerated. "Oh, it's ok if he insults people because he pretends to be a cartoon character." I think we should be responsible for the things we say and insulting a person is not ok. It's just not.
 
zeroturbulence

zeroturbulence

Senior Member
#20
Aug 2, 2009
24,580
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#20
Olerica said:
Huh. Perhaps this is the case, but I still think it's not something that should be tolerated. "Oh, it's ok if he insults people because he pretends to be a cartoon character." I think we should be responsible for the things we say and insulting a person is not ok. It's just not.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I've known kenthomas on here for some time and I know he wouldn't intentionally insult someone like that.

...or else vivian would never let him hear the end of it.
 
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