Riddle me this lovely Singles community! :)

[Rush]

(please note the stories below are fictional; yet they occur in real life for our Single brothers and sisters as reported to me by a Christian Psychiatric Dr. - I raise this after being challenged about the complexities of gender identity by the above mentioned Dr.)

Allow me to paint you a scene and I'd love to hear your thoughts:

*The curtain raises*
My name is Rajeesh. I'm a new Christian and have just joined a church that seems super lovely. I love coming to church and feel at home like no where I've ever been. People are welcoming, warm, they talk to me and invite me over for lunch afterwards. Since I was little kid I'd never had so many friends. The love of the people at church blew me away.
But then sunday I was in church hearing a sermon about the sanctity of marriage. It was a good sermon, preaching about the instances of awesome marriages in the bible, and of course God's model as the bible says.
I started to wonder where I fit in... you see, I was born a hermaphrodite. I have the ability to be with both a male and female equally... so I have to wonder, when I get married.. will I always being gay?? Or am I always being straight?
*lights fade and the curtain lowers*

Ok, so being born as both a male and female equally, is Rajeesh living in sin with a any prospective partner? Or is he ok in the church's eyes?
I wonder from this particular question because even the most staunchly opposed of us to same sex partners might be inclined to think that in this particular case, Razeesh can go "both ways" as it were. Whatever he decided in himself within the realms of a loving monogamy.

I raise that point and move on from there to wonder another story
*raise curtin*
My name is David. When I was born I was both truly a boy and a girl in physical form. The Dr offered my parents a choice. To remove one set of my reproductive organs. They had 3 girls already, and mum and dad believed in their hearts I was meant to be a boy, so they made the choice and I was made a boy. As I got older, youth group started being really weird. My friends were all dating, but all i could think was that I liked boys, not girls. Maybe my parents made a mistake? Is my brain more girl than boy?? What am I going to do?!?
*lights fade and the curtain lowers*

So my thought on this... If the physical body can be formed so differently from the normal template... why does Rajeesh get a pass to marry whoever he wants, while David is stuck with his parents decision?

What should be our positions be to these lovely single brothers and sisters in our Church?

 

[Blain]

For the first story simply having the ability to be with either male or female isn't a sin when we are born we don't exactly get to choose how our body works acting upon what against God is what makes it a sin but even then it isn't our place to condemn. Now as a Christian this young man will likely not just be told by others but convicted by the holy spirit to not have relations with the same sex and in time God will help him with such desires it's possible God may take away the desire for the same sex completely or it's possible that it will remain a thorn in his side for the rest of life for a divine purpose but either way I would encourage this young man to simply keep his hearts eyes set on God continue to seek a deeper love and relationship with him and whenever he falls down slips up or acts upon the urges always remember that Jesus has his hand out to help him back up.


As for the second regardless of if the parents made him male or female it's possible that because of his genetic make up he would have lusted after guys anyways, and also our physical bodies do not decide who we are the flesh desires what it desires but who we really are what we truly desire lies in our hearts not our bodies. It's not a question of if the parents made a mistake it's question of who will he become, when it comes to God our fleshly features are of little importance and fleshly desires can be changed the closer we become to God which is why what Jesus said is true the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak

 

[Messy]

(please note the stories below are fictional; yet they occur in real life for our Single brothers and sisters as reported to me by a Christian Psychiatric Dr. - I raise this after being challenged about the complexities of gender identity by the above mentioned Dr.)

Allow me to paint you a scene and I'd love to hear your thoughts:

*The curtain raises*
My name is Rajeesh. I'm a new Christian and have just joined a church that seems super lovely. I love coming to church and feel at home like no where I've ever been. People are welcoming, warm, they talk to me and invite me over for lunch afterwards. Since I was little kid I'd never had so many friends. The love of the people at church blew me away.
But then sunday I was in church hearing a sermon about the sanctity of marriage. It was a good sermon, preaching about the instances of awesome marriages in the bible, and of course God's model as the bible says.
I started to wonder where I fit in... you see, I was born a hermaphrodite. I have the ability to be with both a male and female equally... so I have to wonder, when I get married.. will I always being gay?? Or am I always being straight?
*lights fade and the curtain lowers*

Ok, so being born as both a male and female equally, is Rajeesh living in sin with a any prospective partner? Or is he ok in the church's eyes?
I wonder from this particular question because even the most staunchly opposed of us to same sex partners might be inclined to think that in this particular case, Razeesh can go "both ways" as it were. Whatever he decided in himself within the realms of a loving monogamy.

I raise that point and move on from there to wonder another story
*raise curtin*
My name is David. When I was born I was both truly a boy and a girl in physical form. The Dr offered my parents a choice. To remove one set of my reproductive organs. They had 3 girls already, and mum and dad believed in their hearts I was meant to be a boy, so they made the choice and I was made a boy. As I got older, youth group started being really weird. My friends were all dating, but all i could think was that I liked boys, not girls. Maybe my parents made a mistake? Is my brain more girl than boy?? What am I going to do?!?
*lights fade and the curtain lowers*

So my thought on this... If the physical body can be formed so differently from the normal template... why does Rajeesh get a pass to marry whoever he wants, while David is stuck with his parents decision?

What should be our positions be to these lovely single brothers and sisters in our Church?

I see no difference between the two. I'd ask God what He wants.

 

[Blain]

I see no difference between the two. I'd ask God what He wants.

There is a pretty big difference the first is about sexual desires mainly while second is mainly about sexual identity both of course having to with sexual desires but each one has a more specific issue

 

[Donkeyfish07]

I don't think that is something we are qualified to advise on.

 

[Messy]

There is a pretty big difference the first is about sexual desires mainly while second is mainly about sexual identity both of course having to with sexual desires but each one has a more specific issue

I don't think there is a difference. I read such a story where the parents decided to raise her as/ turn her into a girl and now she's married to a man. I read from a man whose grandma made him wear dresses and he thought he was a girl. He let it change. He was not a hermaphrodite, just a man with a weird grandma. Then later he regretted it and turned back to a man and married a woman. It has to do with sexuality and identity. Nothing wrong with that, so it wouldn't be wrong for the hermaphrodite either if the parents made the wrong decision. But how on earth do you know in that case what God wanted you to be? Better ask Him. Others have nothing to do with it, unless they really have faith and pray for some miracle and you also want that.

 

[Lynx]

Rush: I believe I remember you being a member in good standing on the forum, and I am not certain where you came across this question, so I am not in any way accusing you. But this question you posed in the OP is a common troll tactic. It has been around since back in the days when I was a moderator in an Apostolic chat room.

 

[seoulsearch]

Hi Rush,

I'm going to try my best to take a shot at your original post and treat it as a fair question.

One of the things that frustrates me about my experiences growing up in the Christian community is that so often, everything is seen in terms of white and black, and absolute rights and wrongs.

I am someone who believes that life often hits us with several shades of gray.

Your question reminds me of a story I heard about a few years ago about a young family in one pickle of a dilemma. The wife had cancer, and the doctors said she needed to start intensive chemo right away in order to survive. But the problem was, she was pregnant, and the doctors advised her to get an abortion, because obviously the chemo would cause untold harm to the baby.

It was a no-win situation. If they chose her life over the baby's, there are some who would accuse the parents of being selfish monsters.

But if they chose the baby's life over hers... There was another twist to the story. They had another child who was around 2 years old. How would any one of us like to be in that young husband's position? "Let your wife die and your growing baby live because abortion must be avoided at all cost; never mind that your wife will die and be faced with raising both of your children alone." I know most people would say, Just trust God, don't get the chemo, Let the baby live, and believe that God will heal your wife. But they were not the ones facing that situation.

The couple decided to go ahead with the abortion. The wife received chemo and lived on to raise their older child with her husband.

The questions you pose are very different and yet, to me, somewhat the same. I've read about people who are chromosomally one gender but physically another. I've often wondered if God has allowed such anomalies to exist not so much as a test THEIR choices, but rather, I wonder if His interest in more how WE, who claim to be His people, treat such people.

I have a long history of talking to and befriending people the Christian community would consider the worst of sinners--people with "alternative" sexual orientations, people who have committed horrible crimes, people who are struggling with their identity, people who have worked in the sex trade. But the reason I've always talked to such people is because I see so much of myself in them to varying degrees and for varying reasons. I was a good girl whose life could have become very much like theirs if I had gone through even half of the things they survived, and that's why I have a lot of empathy for people in those circumstances.

In my lowly opinion, a hermaphrodite is in one of those Christian Catch 22 situations. Some people will judge, criticize, condemn and hate no matter what gender the person feels more affinity towards or "chooses" (even if someone else, such as their parents, essentially chose for them.) No matter what the person chooses, it's going to be seen as the wrong answer to someone, and that someone will probably even be helpful enough to them that they will automatically go to hell (cue sarcasme here.) It makes me very sad to think of how people struggling with this issue are treated, most especially by Christians.

Now, I've never met someone who personally told me they were a hermaphrodite, but if I did, I would hope I could treat them the same way God wants me to treat anyone--with compassion, prayer, support, and encouragement for them to seek an understanding Christian support group who can help them make the tough decisions they (and their future spouse) will be facing.

God bless and thanks for asking your questions!

 

[cinder]

Well I can vouch for Rush that he isn't in any way shape or form a troll and he's absolutely serious about responding to the difficult cases in a godly manner.

As to the situations proposed: I would guess that Rajeesh has probably made a decision about whether he is going to live life passing himself off as a man or woman. I would consider consistency in such a decision (whether it's a conscious decision or not) a sign of good health. And in a Christian framework healthy would be a desire to romantically be with someone who is the "other sex" instead of someone who is the same sex that he identifies with. Practically, unless he's overly physically developed in both ways, I doubt anyone who isn't planning to be physically intimate with him will know that he's a hermaphrodite, and I would hope that anyone he came to seeking true guidance and answers would show him the grace that we all need in the areas where we are radically different from normal through no fault of our own.

As for David, he's in a bit of a tougher situation, but he doesn't have female parts anymore. And the only good way to address things that I can think of would be to somehow obtain a lot of honest responses from people in a similar situation who had a choice made for them and see how many thought their parents' made the right or wrong choice (and how many wish the choice would have just been left up to them). Of course if I'm reading the medical jargon right true hermaphrotiditsm (having the parts of both) has as occurrence rate of 1 in every 83,000 births which is a whopping .012 percent (but still about 84,000 people on this planet). I think the best we can do is listen a lot and keep in mind the prophecy about Jesus, that he doesn't crush the weakest reed or snuff out the smallest flame (Is. 42:3) and we should treat those who live their lives in such difficult circumstances in a similar manner.

 

[Lynx]

This sounds bizarre... but I'm reminded of a science fiction short story about a guy with a time machine who was born a hemaphrodite and chose to be a woman. The story is told from the guy's point of view as an older man - apparently when "she" was young she had a child by a stranger, and when "she" had the child it tore up her womb so the doctors cut it out and left her as a he. Then later "he" went back in time and seduced himself... er, "herself." And then even later he went back in time to make sure his past baby self was taken back in time to where "she" would start life. So "he" seduced "her" which was the same person to give birth to "her" which was the baby version of the same person.

 

[cinder]

This sounds bizarre... but I'm reminded of a science fiction short story about a guy with a time machine who was born a hemaphrodite and chose to be a woman. The story is told from the guy's point of view as an older man - apparently when "she" was young she had a child by a stranger, and when "she" had the child it tore up her womb so the doctors cut it out and left her as a he. Then later "he" went back in time and seduced himself... er, "herself." And then even later he went back in time to make sure his past baby self was taken back in time to where "she" would start life. So "he" seduced "her" which was the same person to give birth to "her" which was the baby version of the same person.

Isn't that one of those destroy the universe type of paradoxes?

 

[Messy]

This sounds bizarre... but I'm reminded of a science fiction short story about a guy with a time machine who was born a hemaphrodite and chose to be a woman. The story is told from the guy's point of view as an older man - apparently when "she" was young she had a child by a stranger, and when "she" had the child it tore up her womb so the doctors cut it out and left her as a he. Then later "he" went back in time and seduced himself... er, "herself." And then even later he went back in time to make sure his past baby self was taken back in time to where "she" would start life. So "he" seduced "her" which was the same person to give birth to "her" which was the baby version of the same person.

..........

 

[Lynx]

No, that's just a "precondition of its own existence" paradox. The ones that both are and are not - like if you kill your own grandfather, so you are not born, so you don't go back in time to kill him, so you are born, so you do go back in time to... those are the ones that rip holes in the fabric of the space-time continuum.

 

[Fenner]

I don't what to say about the original post. I really feel for someone going through something like that. My only opinion would be for that person to go with what they feel.

 

[zeroturbulence]

First person is a free agent... shehe can't be gay.

Second person is still a girl even if they had body parts glued on or uninstalled...
If I glue on a pair of fake breasts does that make me a girl?? (the answer is no)

 

[Rush]

Hi Rush,

The questions you pose are very different and yet, to me, somewhat the same. I've read about people who are chromosomally one gender but physically another. I've often wondered if God has allowed such anomalies to exist not so much as a test THEIR choices, but rather, I wonder if His interest in more how WE, who claim to be His people, treat such people.

I have a long history of talking to and befriending people the Christian community would consider the worst of sinners--people with "alternative" sexual orientations, people who have committed horrible crimes, people who are struggling with their identity, people who have worked in the sex trade. But the reason I've always talked to such people is because I see so much of myself in them to varying degrees and for varying reasons. I was a good girl whose life could have become very much like theirs if I had gone through even half of the things they survived, and that's why I have a lot of empathy for people in those circumstances.

In my lowly opinion, a hermaphrodite is in one of those Christian Catch 22 situations. Some people will judge, criticize, condemn and hate no matter what gender the person feels more affinity towards or "chooses" (even if someone else, such as their parents, essentially chose for them.) No matter what the person chooses, it's going to be seen as the wrong answer to someone, and that someone will probably even be helpful enough to them that they will automatically go to hell (cue sarcasme here.) It makes me very sad to think of how people struggling with this issue are treated, most especially by Christians.

Now, I've never met someone who personally told me they were a hermaphrodite, but if I did, I would hope I could treat them the same way God wants me to treat anyone--with compassion, prayer, support, and encouragement for them to seek an understanding Christian support group who can help them make the tough decisions they (and their future spouse) will be facing.

God bless and thanks for asking your questions!

Seoul, i hear your heart in all your posts. I'm glad you chose to respond.
Your overall response gives me hope for the global Christian community. Your understanding of the grace God has shown you, your veritable "there but for the grace of God go I", lends such a grace to your words.

You noted at the end... you've never met someone as mentioned in the stories... but if you did you hope you could treat them "the same way God wants me to treat anyone--with compassion, prayer, support, and encouragement for them to seek an understanding Christian support group who can help them make the tough decisions they (and their future spouse) will be facing."
Cinder posts a true point below.. the rate of these people in incredibly low from a statistical view point. Yet they do exist, and I'm sure even within the Church... and yet, we never know they're there :/
I believe that if more people responded in the same kind and generous spirit as you have spoken of, they wouldn't need to hide, and we would be a step closer to the community that God calls us to be in scripture

 

[Rush]

Well I can vouch for Rush that he isn't in any way shape or form a troll and he's absolutely serious about responding to the difficult cases in a godly manner.

As to the situations proposed: I would guess that Rajeesh has probably made a decision about whether he is going to live life passing himself off as a man or woman. I would consider consistency in such a decision (whether it's a conscious decision or not) a sign of good health. And in a Christian framework healthy would be a desire to romantically be with someone who is the "other sex" instead of someone who is the same sex that he identifies with. Practically, unless he's overly physically developed in both ways, I doubt anyone who isn't planning to be physically intimate with him will know that he's a hermaphrodite, and I would hope that anyone he came to seeking true guidance and answers would show him the grace that we all need in the areas where we are radically different from normal through no fault of our own.

As for David, he's in a bit of a tougher situation, but he doesn't have female parts anymore. And the only good way to address things that I can think of would be to somehow obtain a lot of honest responses from people in a similar situation who had a choice made for them and see how many thought their parents' made the right or wrong choice (and how many wish the choice would have just been left up to them). Of course if I'm reading the medical jargon right true hermaphrotiditsm (having the parts of both) has as occurrence rate of 1 in every 83,000 births which is a whopping .012 percent (but still about 84,000 people on this planet). I think the best we can do is listen a lot and keep in mind the prophecy about Jesus, that he doesn't crush the weakest reed or snuff out the smallest flame (Is. 42:3) and we should treat those who live their lives in such difficult circumstances in a similar manner.

Well thank you for the vote of "non-troll". In any question I ask that has this sort of bearing, it is always with the scope of being encouraged/encouraging towards love being the primary motivator for the Church's response to anything and everything.

Donkeyfish noted above that he didn't think we were qualified to comment on this... and for some, maybe that's true - at least in a counselling/clinical sense. But I love what Cinder proposes in her last few lines. "I think the best we can do is listen a lot and keep in mind the prophecy about Jesus, that he doesn't crush the weakest reed or snuff out the smallest flame (Is. 42:3) and we should treat those who live their lives in such difficult circumstances in a similar manner."

While understanding is important, especially if we are trying to help, because let's face it, most of us are woefully ill equipped to help someone dealing with these issues; imagine being in a room of loved ones that never truly know you, that never make any attempt to understand you and love you (even if it's because you don't trust them to know).

Listening, truly listening is such a gift to give to those who are unknown and unloved.
Thank you for reminding us all of that Cinder. You rock the proverbial socks

 

[Rush]

It's good to get a more global picture of where the Church stands relationally in such cases. Coming from a country of 20+mil and a city of only 2mil, we're a pretty small pond relative to the world stage.

Thank you all for your thoughts. May thinking about this inspire you to love spectacularly

Blessings,
~Rush

 

[Rush]

I don't what to say about the original post. I really feel for someone going through something like that. My only opinion would be for that person to go with what they feel.

Fenner, thanks for letting yourself feel on this one.

I think the proverbial, we, of the Church, can suffer from detaching from stories like this, and making them merely an intellectual hypothetical without feeling because we don't know anyone like it.

Instead I believe, and I believe that you do too, that we should love spectacularly before we ever meet someone like this... just like God loves us... before the creation of the world He predestined us to fabulous adoption as Sons (and Daughters) of God (super-paraphrase of Eph 1).
Before we were ever spoken into existence, God loved us so extravagantly, knowing what it would cost him to love us, he chose to love us in all poopbaggery anyway!

You rock, sister. I believe allowing yourself to feel is super commendable in this day and age

 

[JennaLeanne]

Rush: I believe I remember you being a member in good standing on the forum, and I am not certain where you came across this question, so I am not in any way accusing you. But this question you posed in the OP is a common troll tactic. It has been around since back in the days when I was a moderator in an Apostolic chat room.

A troll question or not it's still a question that people are gonna ask.. I personally don't have a clue how to answer it... haha! This has to be something we take to the Lord in prayer.. His wisdom not ours