thoughts on modesty...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
4,313
467
83
#21
For years I have told myself that the "standards of public modesty" should be "don't show what you don't want strangers to touch in that situation".

If a woman is wearing a plunging neckline, she is inviting every man who sees her to touch the part of her body she is showing off (at least with his eyes). Let's face it, revealing any part of your body to others is "showing off" that part of your body.

That is where business clothes come in. It is inappropriate to show off ones body in a corporate business context. (Instead, people show off their financial status - but that is a different thread...)

In the context of a beach, attendance there is voluntary and "showing off" ones body is, unfortunately, a part of the non-Christian mindset. Those who go to a beach are aware of what they are immersing themselves in, whether they approve it or not. This includes going to a "tops optional" beach.

Nevertheless, it is "my suggestion" that those Christian women who visit a beach take into consideration "my preference" of not showing what they don't want "me" to touch.

But, since I have never before verbalized this preference, I don't hold them accountable to follow it. It is just my preference. Ditto in church, or anywhere else. I can't control them.

I just wish they realized that by showing off parts of their body, they are forcing me to touch it with my eyes.
I strongly disagree with your statement of if you don't want someone to touch don't show.
I think that mindset is bordering on lunacy.'Just because a woman, or man, is wearing shorts, does that mean I have, or a woman has, opened the door of permission for touching their legs?
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#22
For years I have told myself that the "standards of public modesty" should be "don't show what you don't want strangers to touch in that situation".

If a woman is wearing a plunging neckline, she is inviting every man who sees her to touch the part of her body she is showing off (at least with his eyes). Let's face it, revealing any part of your body to others is "showing off" that part of your body.

Although I strongly doubt you are one, based on your good behaviour otherwise in this forum, I'd say those words are the exact ones a rapist would use to defend his crime. (...and many do.)

Do you always cover every part of your body? Can anyone come up and touch / kiss / whatever any part that is not covered? Hands, arms, face, neck?
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#23
For years I have told myself that the "standards of public modesty" should be "don't show what you don't want strangers to touch in that situation".

If a woman is wearing a plunging neckline, she is inviting every man who sees her to touch the part of her body she is showing off (at least with his eyes). Let's face it, revealing any part of your body to others is "showing off" that part of your body.

That is where business clothes come in. It is inappropriate to show off ones body in a corporate business context. (Instead, people show off their financial status - but that is a different thread...)

In the context of a beach, attendance there is voluntary and "showing off" ones body is, unfortunately, a part of the non-Christian mindset. Those who go to a beach are aware of what they are immersing themselves in, whether they approve it or not. This includes going to a "tops optional" beach.

Nevertheless, it is "my suggestion" that those Christian women who visit a beach take into consideration "my preference" of not showing what they don't want "me" to touch.

But, since I have never before verbalized this preference, I don't hold them accountable to follow it. It is just my preference. Ditto in church, or anywhere else. I can't control them.

I just wish they realized that by showing off parts of their body, they are forcing me to touch it with my eyes.
Yeah, I've got this thing about needing to show off my elbows. LOL
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#24
Although I strongly doubt you are one, based on your good behaviour otherwise in this forum, I'd say those words are the exact ones a rapist would use to defend his crime. (...and many do.)

Do you always cover every part of your body? Can anyone come up and touch / kiss / whatever any part that is not covered? Hands, arms, face, neck?
I don't know if you really know how very accurate this post is.

This whole thread is a jumbled basket full of interesting insights. LOL
 

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
4,313
467
83
#25
I can only imagine the pressure, and confusion and anger some woman (and even a small number of men) may feel when it comes to the issue of their dress choices being misconstrued.
I am not suggesting woman, like men, sometimes don't dress immodestly with intent to show off or seduce. I am guessing just about every woman has done that at some point. Unfortunately some obviously make it a habit.
Conversely our society, even today- maybe it is just more subtle now, takes woman's looks and their bodies and objectify them. So men, younger men especially, are almost conditioned into thinking a certain way when they view woman in certain dress and/or situations.
Part of the cycle of life is that younger men and woman, in a fairly innocuous manner, sometimes may just want to celebrate their youth in a way that is modest, yet still makes a statement that he or she is attractive and in is enjoying their health and youthful looks.
Nevertheless, our society can and sometimes does morph that into being construed as showing off, or inappropriate. The intent may not be there, still it may be viewed that way. The dress may be a little on the tight side, but not skin tight, the length may be knee high, or maybe slightly above, but nothing to high, yet it is almost inevitable that some people will deem it as unveiling.
Is a man or woman dressing like that with a mindset of not salacious intent responsible for the lewd or jealous thoughts of others?
Sometimes for some people, due to their looks, or maybe even just their youth, they are in a no win situation no matter how they dress.
The reason why may be because a lot of that is the indoctrinating of Madison Avenue, be it the Christian or the secular person.
I don't mean inappropriate in the secular sense, I don't know if much is deemed unsuitable anymore in this country among the secular, I am talking among Christians. The Christian community is not immune to this.
That is why the bible says be careful what we put in our minds.'
Here in this country, it is impossible to completely avoid it.

About 7 years ago I was in a very large holistic nutrition class of about 500 people in a big auditorium in a building in midtown Manhattan. It was about 93% woman. No kidding. Why, I am not sure. Anyway, so there were maybe about 460 woman, and about 35 to 40 men.
Being a holistic class, we covered a lot of ground on many aspects of food and nutrition.
In the afternoon he spoke a good while about emotional eating and woman and their body image.
The instructor went into some of the stuff I mentioned earlier in the post, like the pressure on woman to look a certain way and self body image.
On a large screen he was showing pictures of woman in various dress and also almost totally undress, and of woman of different ages and body types and showed them posing their bodies for commercial reasons in advertisements to drive home his points.
He then switched to showing pictures of men, and many of them were pictures of men posing for clothing and fashion advertisements and also men whose jobs were strippers. As with the pictures of the woman, no one was undressed, but in some cases, there was not much left to the imagination.
More then a few woman in the class were shouting their approval of these pictures of the men, shouting or cat calling, or whistling in a way that implied that they approved of the pictures in a sexual and sensual way.
Of course it had nothing to do with me, but for one of the very few times in my life, I felt so uncomfortable around woman, with so many woman in the class, almost overwhelmed by the number of them voicing their approval of not a person, because no woman there knew the men in those pictures, but they were viewing them as just a object of attractiveness, of physicalality.
Not necessarily a bad thing among a married couple in a frisky mood, yet in this scenario, among strangers, I got a fleeting and jarring idea of what some woman may go through maybe way to often, through no fault of their own.
 
Dec 16, 2012
1,483
114
63
#26
I've seen people say that "it's about not causing the opposite sex to lust after you".
Then they've got their priorities completely wrong. Not just in what you wear, but in your behaviour, your values, your spirit, your fruits and your beliefs, the most important thing is that you let Jesus shine through you. I don't dress or act for any other reason, much less for the sake of those around me. No, as a christian, the only motive is to dress for Jesus, whatever that may mean to you personally, is whatever Jesus puts on your heart, nothing more.
 

JosephsDreams

Senior Member
Dec 31, 2015
4,313
467
83
#27
Although I strongly doubt you are one, based on your good behaviour otherwise in this forum, I'd say those words are the exact ones a rapist would use to defend his crime. (...and many do.)

Do you always cover every part of your body? Can anyone come up and touch / kiss / whatever any part that is not covered? Hands, arms, face, neck?
As I read it, I was thinking his comments were creepy. And what you said.
I didn't want to say it, but you did.
Its out there now. No criticizing you. it may have been needed to be said.
It really did not sit well with me.
If the poster who wrote this would somehow like to dig himself out, and/or retract that comment, it may not be a bad idea.
I think your way off in your thinking.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,327
2,359
113
#28
For years I have told myself that the "standards of public modesty" should be "don't show what you don't want strangers to touch in that situation".
I like the idea behind this. It's probably a much better guide than a lot of the "rules" people try to use to guide modesty.

I TOTALLY agree

This is something I like about the muslims, muslim women have to wear those big similar to nun dresses. The muslims say that the reason why they wear that is so people don't look lust at them or get any lustful thoughts. I admire that and like that way of thinking, see there is NOTHING sexual about that and when you see a woman wearing that, you just don't think lust thoughts.
Of course the muslims (well many of the cultures that are predominantly muslim at least) also believe that men are incapapble of sexual self control and that therefore any sexual impropriety committed towards the woman is her fault because she didn't take the necessary precautions to prevent arousing him. Do you agree with that part of it as well or do you find it demeaning to both sexes? Don't be fooled by externals, there are ways for muslim women to be immodest even in a full body covering and there are ways for people in jungle tribes that only wear loincloths or less to be modest.

As for present day and the church, we need to gently correct people and point out the very valid considerations that make modesty a good idea (like attracting a faithful mate instead of someone who just wants to use you for their own sexual pleasure) and we also need to communicate that we value people for themselves and they don't seem more valuable or acceptable for being rich, attractive, or married. James 2 comes to mind where he talks about favoritism in the church.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
#29
Here is a problem I find.

I hate to dress girly (skirt and blouse)
The wast majority of nice blouses are tight (VERY tight), if they are not, they are so loose they look shabby.
Most skirts are fairly short, and they are (almost) always synthetic and way to cold to wear during Norwegian winters.

If I am to wear the stereotypical (from my parents generation) church clothes, what the stores offer are cold, tight, short clothes. Not very modest is it?

Or I could wear pants and a t- shirt. ... but if the pants are to look somewhat neat, once again, all I can choose are tight pants. (I prefer baggy ones, but again, they look very .... releaxed... not the stereotypical getting dressed for church).

I remember arguing with my parents because I hate "nice clothes", and would rather wear the baggy, worn ones to church.

How can one be modest when there are few modest clothes that the "church crowd" find "nice enough"?
I wasnt aware pants and a tshirt were not considered dressing modestly? I thought this thread was about like revealing clothing, not traditional?
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#30
I wasnt aware pants and a tshirt were not considered dressing modestly? I thought this thread was about like revealing clothing, not traditional?
If a pair of pants (jeans) are so tight I can barely put them on then surely men who feel the need to touch and flesh they see must be getting ideas about what is underneath when i wear tight pants?
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
#31
believe that men are incapapble of sexual self control
I get really angry at anyone who tries to spread this teaching. As a biological male, I can absolutely say that it is 100% entirely possible for a male to control himself and not act out on any sexual urge, especially when it involves another party.

And I say that as a male who also deals with sexual urges. I really really hate how the entire world is running with this teaching, its clearly being used to justify practicing such behaviors.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,327
2,359
113
#32
I get really angry at anyone who tries to spread this teaching. As a biological male, I can absolutely say that it is 100% entirely possible for a male to control himself and not act out on any sexual urge, especially when it involves another party.

And I say that as a male who also deals with sexual urges. I really really hate how the entire world is running with this teaching, its clearly being used to justify practicing such behaviors.
Oh I agree 100%. It's a despicable and degrading teaching. Just a convenient excuse for lazy and morally corrupt men to not take responsibility for themselves.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
#33
If a pair of pants (jeans) are so tight I can barely put them on then surely men who feel the need to touch and flesh they see must be getting ideas about what is underneath when i wear tight pants?
I dont think I understand your post, why is this a problem with dressing modestly? I would agree that your church has a bad dress code, but I dont really see how this relates to the OP, or why its a problem for you.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,327
2,359
113
#34
I dont think I understand your post, why is this a problem with dressing modestly? I would agree that your church has a bad dress code, but I dont really see how this relates to the OP, or why its a problem for you.
Especially if you are a skinnier woman (a problem I don't have) tight clothes that show off your body are about your only option for nice clothes. That's more her point, that modest clothes can be incredibly hard to find and buy for some women.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#35
Yes, what cinder said.
 

Yeraza_Bats

Senior Member
Dec 11, 2014
3,632
175
63
35
#36
Especially if you are a skinnier woman (a problem I don't have) tight clothes that show off your body are about your only option for nice clothes. That's more her point, that modest clothes can be incredibly hard to find and buy for some women.
They make clothing in different sizes, though. I have many women in my family who are not skinny, and I dont feel they wear clothing thats so tight it sticks to their clothing.

About looking down on people because they have clothes like that though, I dont approve if someone dresses that way but I dont go out shaming them or anything. Maybe its a good thing to learn why the person is dressing that way. I have an in-law that used to dress that way, she is a bit larger. She used to wear clothing that was too tight for her, and at the time I felt it was uncomfortable. But after some time she began wearing clothing that fit her better, so I assumed that she struggled knowing how to find better fitting clothing for her and eventually found a better way to dress.

I guess, at the very least, if you know someone whos dressing in a way that seems inappropriate, but they arent 100% "thin"", and you are close enough with them that you can talk about it, you can help them find a better way to dress. Also being someone who doesnt qualify as thin as well, I like to think Im capable of separating dressing in a way thats purposefully lewd to someone of a bigger size having a harder time with the clothes they wear : p Id imagine that most people can make that separation too : p
 
N

NukePooch

Guest
#37
If a pair of pants (jeans) are so tight I can barely put them on then surely men who feel the need to touch and flesh they see must be getting ideas about what is underneath when i wear tight pants?
Ummm...if they're too tight, you have the wrong size. The fashion of 'Skinny jeans' just means they put a size '8' tag on size '6' jeans, for instance. If they're skin tight, they're too small...doesn't matter what 'good fashion' is or not.

I'm also not directing this at you or any/all women. It's the same with men. If a guy I knew, (perhaps a guitarist which will remain unnamed), wears jeans that are painted on, then they're too small. He needs to not wear stuff that shows outlines of his things while he's onstage praising God.

I bought two t-shirts online the other day. Bought the same size I always wear (3XT). I didn't realize the shirts were 'Athletic Cut', which is code for 'waaay too tight'. So, of course, they are waaay too tight. So, I will need to buy 4XT shirts from that brand to fit properly. No big deal.

We're in a season of 'tight is better' clothing now, I can't wait until it inevitably comes back around to 'loose is better' clothing. I'd love to see 'grunge' roll back in...LOL.
 
W

wwjd_kilden

Guest
#38
Ummm...if they're too tight, you have the wrong size. The fashion of 'Skinny jeans' just means they put a size '8' tag on size '6' jeans, for instance. If they're skin tight, they're too small...doesn't matter what 'good fashion' is or not.

I'm also not directing this at you or any/all women. It's the same with men. If a guy I knew, (perhaps a guitarist which will remain unnamed), wears jeans that are painted on, then they're too small. He needs to not wear stuff that shows outlines of his things while he's onstage praising God.

I bought two t-shirts online the other day. Bought the same size I always wear (3XT). I didn't realize the shirts were 'Athletic Cut', which is code for 'waaay too tight'. So, of course, they are waaay too tight. So, I will need to buy 4XT shirts from that brand to fit properly. No big deal.

We're in a season of 'tight is better' clothing now, I can't wait until it inevitably comes back around to 'loose is better' clothing. I'd love to see 'grunge' roll back in...LOL.
Well, I don't wear clothes that are "painted on" , but the problem is that those are the only ones that look "formal"
and, being short, I have to rull up about half the leg of the jeans to have them fit lengthwise if they fit at the waist :D
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#39
My "modesty" comes from never thinking my body was the thing. If the first thing that attracts you to me is my body, you're not my type.

And I do see attraction. The first thing I noticed about future-hubby was the strange guy just about bowling everyone in his way up the aisle after service to get to wherever he just had to go. The next thing I noticed was his eyes. Really gorgeous eyes, but also a twinkle and a thrill to be alive look in them. (His eyes have never changed.) I thought he was that happy to see his friend. (Took me a while to realize all that was about me. lol)

And in like kind, the two things he first noticed about me (NEW GIRL IN CHURCH! WHOA! lol) was that I wasn't afraid to ask the pastor a question during announcements, and the question was if I could make an announcement. (Later on I learned it's best to ask that kind of thing before announcement, simply because he had no idea what kind of person I was, so what announcement I would make, but it was a safe announcement, or I wouldn't have asked. lol) And then he liked my butt. Yeah, also sounds immodest, but what he liked, (along with the obvious, which, for some strange reason, he thinks looks the same 35 years later lol) was I wasn't dressed like all the other women.

I didn't know I just walked into what was leftover of a church that had just been ransacked by a charlatan. "In the name of God," the charlatan had slowly stolen freedom to question authority (him) and filled their minds with how Christians should act in public (around him.) It was so bad, a few months before that, future-hubby was next to newcomers and one of the newcomers asked why the women all dressed like high-class prostitutes. By the time I showed up, most of the young folks who believed that junk had been talked into moving far away, and the women were wearing less makeup, but I walked in wearing clean jeans that fit and a collared shirt I inherited from an older brother's closet. (I only remember, because hubby remembers. lol) I don't feel a need to impress God with my clothes, since he's seen me every which way and still loves me, but I do wear clean clothes.

And because I am this way, I attracted a man who is the same way.

The only thing I notice about people on the beach is wondering if something important might fall out of their clothes. (This is men and women.) I had a one-piece bathing suit with fairly wide straps at the shoulders when I was in college. The first time I dove into the pool, the top ended up at my waist anyway. Fortunately that part of my body was under water, so I had the time to readjust, but I distinctly remember the embarrassment from that. So, if I see someone who might lose the effectiveness of their bathingsuit at any moment, I turn my head because if it does happen, the last thing that person wants is for others to see it. I'm not a crowded beach person, so I haven't spent time at the beach with crowds since the early 80's, but I never ran out of places to look.

I'm more into practical.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#40
I've never understood 'situational' modesty... One wouldn't wear a bikini or a speedo to church, work, or even a grocery store, yet it's somehow okay to wear it to a public beach? Doesn't make sense to me. I know I'm likely in the minority here, but I think shorts and t-shirts at a minimum, all the time. Even the guys. I don't want to see some shirtless guy riding a lawn mower in the neighborhood. Especially a fat hairy shirtless guy. (Like my dad...I'd like to tell him that the neighbors have no desire to see his gut, but he just wouldn't care...~rolls eyes~)

On a more serious note: a bit of a warning or sorts for anyone who is 'on stage' on a regular basis. As a sound, light, and video tech, I've noticed that 'modest' dress has to be taken to new dimensions when you're on stage. Singers, preachers, presenters, etc, if they desire to remain modest, need to take into account the room that they're in. I was once a tech in a large youth (teenage) ministry. The room had seating for 450 or so with elevated 'stadium' style seating. I noticed that some guys were excited about seeing down the shirts of the teen singers on stage (because they were looking down on the stage)... The band/singers all dressed modestly, but they had no idea they were still putting on a show...

So...if you're on an elevated stage with people looking up at you, and/or if you have crowd or video cameras 'above' you looking down, might want to take that into account.
I wouldn't wear a one-piece in church, at work, or in a grocery store either, so should I be wearing long pants, and a collar shirt all the time? I can't see how that would be comfortable in water. And, man! Drying off is going to take forever!