I Kissed Dating Goodbye

Ok, I simply must bring up this book. I want to know how many of you read it and what you think of it. I read it when I was 18. I had been first published the year before. I wished I had read it when I was 13 or 14, when all my friends started dating. I gave a copy to my old church for their library and the pastor's wife, who reviewed it, said she wished she had it when she was a teenager.

It is, in a nutshell, an awesome book. The thesis of the book (in my own words) is that people who are young (under about 21) who get into serious relationships too often compromise themselves emotionally, physically and spiritually, and it's a better idea to wait until one can get married in the forseeable to get seriously involved with the opposite sex. Why shop if you can not yet afford to buy? That's just opening yourself up to temptation.

See, when I was a teenager, in youth group and other Christian books and stuff the message about dating was very clear. There were two rules: 1. don't have sex 2. only date Christians. Harris, who's about 6 or 7 years older than me, was raised on the same thing. He brought up the whole question emotional attachement and compromise and questioned the necessity of teenaged dating in the first place. For those of us who have been through serious relationships as teenagers, he said a lot of things that we felt needed to be said.

BUT, what really bothers me about I Kissed Dating Goodbye (hereafter referred to as IKDGB) is that people don't read it for what it is. What it is: a 21 year old guy saying, "I think teenagers dating is a bad thing because..." What some people think it is: "I have Biblical proof that dating is a sin." He's not a theologian or a relationship expert. He's just some guy sharing his views, Biblically grounded they may be.

The reality is that the Bible is not as clear on how we're supposed to go from single to married. I mean, it's very clear if I was an Old Testament Jewish woman, who's husband died before I could bear him children. In that case I'd have to marry my late husband's brother. But we're not Old Testament Jews, we're 21st century Chiristians who don't practice arranged marriage. A couple is expected to know each other and even be in love before marriage. See, the author, Joshua Harris says that dating is a very modern (20th century) concept. This is true. But, this doesn't make it a bad thing. Being in love before marriage is also a relatively modern concept, and yet pretty much everyone is in agreement that's a good thing. The other thing that I think is a factor in the modern world is that we know a lot more people over the course of our lives. I mean you look at a lot of the characters in books like Anne of Green Gables, Little Women and Little House on the Prarie, they people marry other poeple that they've known their entire lives. You didn't need to look for someone who also wanted kids (kids were inevitable), was a Chrsitian (if you were a Christian you were likely surrounded by other Chrisitans and being spiritually compatible wasn't as much of a priority). People probably didn't think as much about finding someone with the same values and ideas because those things varied so much less because there wasn't the same access to information. I mean, I have a well defined world view, and I want someone with similar views. But in the 19th century, I wouldn't have much of a world view. I wouldn't even be able to vote. I mean, I might have been a member of the Abolishionists or the WCTU, but if I wasn't married to a guy who passionately supported those causes, I probably wouldn't care.

[jaylynn83]

Honestly, i didnt like it.... at all....

So basically what I'm saying is that we have dating now because 1. most of us don't live in small towns or neighbourhoods where everyone knows everyone and everyone goes to the same church and have roughly the same values and ideas about life. 2. We have a higher standard of closeness in a marriage now and therefore it's more important that you find someone with whom you're really compatible, and there are now a lot more things that couples have to be compatible about.

I mean think about it. I wouldn't be at all opposed to my dad finding a guy for me to marry. But there are two problems: 1. I live two time zones away and 2. He wouldn't know where to begin. If he were to look at my age from guys from his church, well, there are a lot of guys there that haven't been going there very long, and/or very few of them he's seen outside of church so he doesn't really know them. He knows some great Christian young men that I'm sure he'd think have all the spiritual integrity that one would want in the husband for one's daughter, but there are so many other factors to consider in whether or not they'd be a good match for me. These are factors that just didn't exist back in the day.

Anyway, the other thing that I'm getting at here, is that I sometimes suspect that there are people on this forum that have formed their opinions on dating based on IKDGB or someone who's been heavily influenced by it, but they deny it. Why? Because when one is agruing their point of view in a Christian context, they want to convince other people that their view is the most Biblical and they're not just subscribing to another person's interpretation.

See, what really bugs me is not what IKDGB says, but...

Well, it's human nature to think that if a little bit of something is good than a lot of something is better. I've seen people take Harris' views to an extreme to the point where they are no longer his views. THAT is what bugs me. And of course, whenever you take a point of view to an extreme there's unintended consequences. That's why Elizabeth Elliot was taught in Bible college that the hardest thing in life to achieve is balance. I always think of that scene in Pilgrim's Progress when he's in the Valley of the Shadow of Death. He's walking along a really narrow path where there's the deadly swamp on one side and the bottomless pit on the other. He's always trying to so hard to avoid one that he nearly falls into the other.

Anyway, the extreme that I'm talking about is that because poeple think that Harris is right about dating as teenagers is a bad idea, then dating ever is a sin. And because dating is a sin, then taking initiative to find the right person is also a sin. Well, in... I don't know, it was either 2002 or 2004, I went to Harris' website where he had an advice column. Someone ask him if it was ok to join a dating service. He said that there's nothing wrong taking intiative to find the right person. I looked on his site for that, but I couldn't find it.

I did, however, find this

http://www.joshharris.com/2007/05/a_..._to_online.php

See, he talks about the concerns he has about on-line dating, but those are more "if you choose to do on-line dating, be careful of the following..." rather than telling people they shouldn't do it.

oooh i read that book when i was 16... perfect time for me. it was around when i first started dating and now its been about 4 years since i dated. I knew God was telling me something about my relationship through this boook. i thought it was a neat book and i should probably reread it since it has been like 4 years.

I read it when I was 14, which was a great time to read it. It helped a lot with my teen years. I always meant to read his second book but never got around to it...

I wouldn't recommend it for those in their twenties, but it's great for teens.

Yeah i read the book sex is not the problem lust is by him also I am a leader in a youth group that is going through that book it is really good.
I also want to try reading boy meets girl.

Originally Posted by MusicalMe

I read it when I was 14, which was a great time to read it. It helped a lot with my teen years. I always meant to read his second book but never got around to it...

I wouldn't recommend it for those in their twenties, but it's great for teens.

Well, I'd recommend people in their 20s read it for two reasons: One, it has been very influential. There was an interview on Christianitytoday.com with Joshua Harris, calling him "the man who ignited the dating debate." I mean the book has been so influential I think that's a good enough reason in itself to read it. Like I've found a lot of people on this forum who almost quote him directly. You can tell they've been really influenced by him directly or indirectly, whether or not they'll admit it. Two: there is a lot of wisdom in it that applies to singles in the 20s, even though there's a lot that doesn't apply to them.

But you right, the target audience of this book is teenagers. I mean really, I guess Harris assumed that people older than him wouldn't read his book, so he didn't go out of his way to emphasize this point. So, I think a lot of people have used his ideas to agrue that dating is bad even when one is mature enough to work towards marriage.

I highly recommed Boy Meets Girl. It's really, really, really, really good. In 2001 both my best friend and my sister where talking about their problems with their boyfriends. I kept telling them they needed to read Boy Meets Girl. They did and within a year they were both engaged. But, it's really for people who've already met the right person, or someone you think is the right person. It won't tell you how to meet the right person if he's no where in sight.

There's a really good book that I read not too long ago called : The Five Love Languages. It's normally for couples, but single people can read it too, just to get a gist of what is looked for in a relationship. And the different love languages that different people speak.

[jaylynn83]

Originally Posted by amorelife

There's a really good book that I read not too long ago called : The Five Love Languages. It's normally for couples, but single people can read it too, just to get a gist of what is looked for in a relationship. And the different love languages that different people speak.

yeah that is an awesome book i read that years ago!

Originally Posted by amorelife

There's a really good book that I read not too long ago called : The Five Love Languages. It's normally for couples, but single people can read it too, just to get a gist of what is looked for in a relationship. And the different love languages that different people speak.

I've never read that book but I very much advocate people read as many books as possible on this issue. Especially by people like Dr. Chapman who've has lots of personal and professional experience. He also has an addition for singles that you can read about here: http://www.fivelovelanguages.com/books_singles.html

See, Harris in IKDGB talks about people who've been in lots of relatinships as giving their heart away and having less of it to give to their future spouse. I'm not so sure that's true. I mean, that's definitly true of people who've sex with lots of people, or with anyone for that matter. And yeah, if you compromise yourself in a lot of ways emotionally that's bad. And if you make unrealistic promises and then don't keep them that's bad. There's a lot that I wish I'd done differently in the two relationships I had before I was 19. However, I really can't say that I regret being in them, because (and for this I anticipate people will jump on me for this) that I think they made me into a better person. I mean when I started going out with my first boyfriend, that was a major turning point in my life. I got a lot more serious about God. One friend who'd known me through church since I was a kid said that when I started going out with my first boyfriend is when I became a nice person. I remember the day my first boyfriend asked me out. I was sitting in church praying for God's will, asking Him that if it was His will that He'd ask me out before I left church that day. Now, I could think of some flaws in that prayer now, for starters it's "laying a fleece." But, at the time I did sincerely want God's will in my life. I mean, I didn't want the relationship if I didn't think God wanted it for me.

I read it... and it was ok. I thought their situation was very idealistic & if you come from a good Christian family & you have the support of everyone around you, then the book is a wonderful help! But that's not me... I actually just read another book, its called "Leave Dating Behind" and to me, it made a lot more sense & was more "on my level". But hey.. the principles were good. If you get a chance - Read it!

Originally Posted by Kenoragirl

I read it... and it was ok. I thought their situation was very idealistic & if you come from a good Christian family & you have the support of everyone around you, then the book is a wonderful help! But that's not me... I actually just read another book, its called "Leave Dating Behind" and to me, it made a lot more sense & was more "on my level". But hey.. the principles were good. If you get a chance - Read it!

Yeah, I guess the biggest thing about IKDGB is... ok, well there's two question that go unanswered. First of all, what do you do if one is committed to Harris' principals but (ok, let's say the person is 16) she likes a guy. And it could be that she's liking him for all the right reasons. I know when I was a teenager there's lots of guys that I liked for plenty of good (as in not superficial) reasons. So, what does she do? Does she avoid him? I mean the obvious answer is that she doesn't actively pursue a romantic relationship with him, but... Ok, I'm a behaviour therapist and in my field we talk about the Dead Man's Test meaning a if a dead man can do it it's not considered a behaviour. So, not actively pursuing a relationship is not a behaviour because a dead man is not actively pursing a relationship. So, how should she behave? Should she not be his friend? If she is his friend, should she hide how she feels about him? See, what I've found is that when you're a teenager and you like a guy and he likes you, you're pretty much a couple. Like, you can avoid calling it that and avoid holding hands in public and whatnot, but it's hard to not to be a couple with a guy you like who likes you. And I think the problem is that if two kids that like each other deny that they're a couple, because they want to do things the IKDGB way, they might not set up the kind of rules that one would have if they're in an official relationship.

The other thing about the book is it won't tell you much about what to do instead of dating when you are ready to get married. Like, there's a chapter in the back where he offers some very good advice on what to do if you have a good friend who you fall in love with and you think it would be good to pursue marriage with him. But, it won't tell you what to do if the right person isn't right in front of you, or if you don't know if he's the right person. That's why he wrote Boy Meets Girl. What drives me nuts is that "dating" has (in some Christian circles) become a dirty word because of IKDGB, even amoung adults. Furthermore those who choose to abstain from dating sometimes judge those who don't.

"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." -1 Corinthians 4:6

See, maybe it's kind of like the Orthodox Jews. I have an Orthodox Jewish co-worker who said that they like to build walls around their laws. So, because the Bible says not to boil a goat in his mother's milk, they go to great lengths to make sure that meat and dairy never touch. Because the Bible says that a couple shouldn't have sex during that time of the month, an Orthodox Jewish man won't even touch his wife until she's been to the Micvah since the end of her last period, and men and women who aren't married never touch. So, with us, sex outside of marriage is wrong. Getting overly physical outside of marriage is also wrong. Harris is asking people to CHOOSE to build walls around their relationships with the opposite sex in order to protect their purity. He might have some good ideas, but that doesn't make his ideas on par with Scripture. And the frustrating thing is that he never claims his ideas are anything more than his own ideas. He's well aware of trap of leaglism and he warns against it. Like seriously, I wonder what he'd think about some anti-dating crusaders. Anyway, what I'm saying is this, dating is not a sin. I mean, there was one guy on the forum who said that if you're dating you are having sex and having sex is a sin, so therefore dating is a sin (my words, not his). Need I say more?

The other big thing about IKDGB is that it really focuses on the negative aspects of dating. I strongly believe that one cannot take a position on an issue until they've understood both sides of an issue. There is another side with this too. There are positive aspects to dating. I found that my teenage relationships I fell into a lot of the "Seven habits of highly defective dating" that Harris describes, but I nonetheless think they had a postive long-term effect on my life. That's probably a minority experience, but that's my experience.

For Christian books that focus on the positive of dating (and how to avoid the negative) check out

http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-Date-W...ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-Dat.../dp/0310200342

I found that they really gave me a different point of view and therefore I have a more balanced point of view on dating.

Originally Posted by Kenoragirl

I read it... and it was ok. I thought their situation was very idealistic & if you come from a good Christian family & you have the support of everyone around you, then the book is a wonderful help! But that's not me... I actually just read another book, its called "Leave Dating Behind" and to me, it made a lot more sense & was more "on my level". But hey.. the principles were good. If you get a chance - Read it!

I haven't read it or heard of it but I'd love to. I think Christians singles should read all they can on this topic. Every book they read gives them a more balanced point of view.

Ok, I've put my finger on what it is that bothers me about IKDGB. First of all, if I didn't make myself clear before, I'll say it again. It's not that I have a problem with that book, I have a problem with people who've taken his views to the extreme.

What Harris is talking about with what's wrong with dating has a lot to do with immaturity. What I don't think some people don't understand is that one is supposed to outgrow that which is problematic about dating. If you still find yourself falling into that problems that dating poses, you're not an emotional adult yet. Drs. Cloud and Townsend (experienced psychologists and very respected Christians) talk about how one can date the right way in their book Boundaries in Dating. I highly recommend it for adults who want to be in a relationship.

[RedStar]

great book

[Graybeard]

Thank you Ancilla for posting about this book, never heard of it and it really looks an eye opener so I am going to order one for my daughter, she is 19 and a virgin (so proud of her words can't explain)

[jgrig2]

There is an excellent audio interview with him: you can download it here.