Love and Understanding

[LightningClap0002]

For several years now I have been intrigued by the following concept:

I think it’s impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves

I see real truth in this. It really seems to pull out the truth behind the power of empathy. It describes, better than anything else I've read, how one can love thy neighbor. It could be used to write up a grown-up "golden rule": Seek to understand your neighbor as well as you understand yourself (or better).

I've found in my life, seeking to understand others opens the door to a lot (not always positive). With a strong foundation, however, it truly seems that misunderstanding fuels both fear and hostility. Love is fostered by understanding.

The quote, above, was certainly not from the Bible, in fact wasn't even from a religious writing of any kind. I'm curious to get opinions from other christians; is this idea of love that I embrace merely fantastic fiction.

[Jullianna]

This world has such a messed up concept of what love is, especially the putting others before yourself thing, even christians. I personally believe this is the basis for the high divorce rate. So many put their own desires and preferences above those they claim to love...even their children at times.. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say they'd dumped spouses and kids because they DESERVED to be happy. Doesn't line up with the scriptural definition of love at all, does it?

There's a lot I don't know, but one thing I do know... knowing how to love is so much easier once you've BEEN truly loved the way Christ loves us. It's the best example ever.

[Catlynn]

I was just talking with someone the other day about how love is absolute selflessness. Essentially, choosing for the higher good of God and His creation far above your own. The attitude of "I deserve" drives me absolutely bonkers! So many people that I know have been trying to convince me lately that I deserve to go and do whatever the heck I want because I've been serving and doing things for other people for so long. Who said that there was a time frame? That it's all over once you've served God for this many hours? lol When people's values lie in what makes them happy, it's hard to convince them that it brings you joy to serve other people. Sad.....but true. What makes it even sadder is that God IS love, so if people's definition of love and what they value is all messed up, it means that they don't know God very well at all, huh?

[See_KING_Truth]

It surely does appear to be that way Kit-Cat. It is easy to see where God ranks in somebody life by what they think (talking about vocalized thoughts here) and by what they say and do.

As for my comment above, those of you reading this who like to be the judge of who's judging....well, I guess I don't have to justify myself do I?

[Jullianna]

That's not judging, McCharming, it's scriptural. Jesus said, "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

[See_KING_Truth]

All I have to say is

[LightningClap0002]

Originally Posted by Jullianna

There's a lot I don't know, but one thing I do know... knowing how to love is so much easier once you've BEEN truly loved the way Christ loves us. It's the best example ever.

Absolutely! Redirected below (hope you don't mind).

Originally Posted by Catlynn

The attitude of "I deserve" drives me absolutely bonkers! So many people that I know have been trying to convince me lately that I deserve to go and do whatever the heck I want because I've been serving and doing things for other people for so long. Who said that there was a time frame? That it's all over once you've served God for this many hours? lol

You know, this is definitely something that has bothered me every time someone has said it. I really didn't have a good explanation for what bothered me about it, though. You nailed it. Love and deserve can not co-exist.

Not to be pushy here, but I want to try and redirect the focus of some of this. I absolutely agree with what has been said so far, but that's not really the driving force behind the thread. Without a doubt, we should love our neighbor as ourselves. I would even go as far as to say that there is no doubt that love (as a choice) can be achieved without truly understanding our neighbor (though understanding certainly seems to make this easier).

But what about our enemy? God loves them, we are commanded to love them too. But how do you do that? When your mind screams out against every thing they do, how do you love them?

We know what love is (well, we have a pretty good idea of what love looks like thanks to God). So, I'm going to assume that we know what loving our enemy looks like; we know what loving our neighbor looks like. But how do we really accomplish that? I think a lot of people choose to separate the person from their actions (hate the sin, love the sinner?). But is that really truth? A person is largely defined by their actions, or more specifically I guess a combination of their actions and their reasoning behind their actions. We can choose to ignore the sin in someone's life and choose to love the shell of a person that is left, but is that really what God is commanding us to do? Is that really what God does? Should we sit there and hope that one day they will cease their sinful ways and then we can stop loving just the shell and really start loving them as THEM?

This is where the quote that really drove this thread comes in. So, can we find biblical support for the idea presented in the original quote? Does complete understanding really lead to love, even of our enemies? Well, God understands everyone, probably better than we understand ourselves. We know that God loves everyone. Super simplistically, there is a link there. Is it real? Is the link truth, or just coincidence? Is there a causal link between God's understanding and His love?

As a human, if we seek to understand our enemies completely, will it also lead to love? Or should we rather, amputate out (in our minds) every thing that we don't agree with and love whatever is left? Can we, as humans, successfully navigate the narrow path between the benefits of true, deep, understanding and the drawbacks of empathic tolerance? If we seek to understand our enemies deeply, is love an unavoidable result?

Hopefully I didn't flood your brains with too many questions now.

[Jullianna]

I don't really need to understand my enemies in order for the Lord in me to love them. Can't say that I really WANT to understand why they do what they do either.

I've been across the table from violent murderers who were self-proclaimed satanists, but Jesus in me was able to see through all of that emptiness to the need inside of them. I wasn't foolish enough to TRUST them, but I did pray for them. For me, knowing that He died for them just as much as He did for me is enough to know. Sin is sin, and I have sins that need forgiveness as well, so who am I to withhold mercy? Easy? nope... But He never promised that it would be. It helps to remember that Paul was a murderer before he met Jesus.

I'll think about the scripture thing. I do know that Jesus said He came to heal the sick, not the righteous and, as His body, so we should be doing the same whenever possible. Nothing heals quite like love.

[LightningClap0002]

Originally Posted by Jullianna

I've been across the table from violent murderers who were self-proclaimed satanists, but Jesus in me was able to see through all of that emptiness to the need inside of them. I wasn't foolish enough to TRUST them, but I did pray for them.

Ohhhhhh, yay! Looks like you're a perfect example.

First and foremost, if you're not familiar with Matthew 5:43-48, I think that would be a good place to start. If you are already, then we'll go from there!

Well, actually, I will jump off on a tangent for a second. "I will pray for them" is something that I recoil from pretty quickly. A lot of christians like the idea of praying at someone, or praying judgment on someone (see "Praying For You" - Jaron and the Long Road to Love). Err, not that I'm accusing you of doing this. Just something that is all too common.

Anyways, back on topic. Luke 6:27 further expounds on the idea presented in Matthew. We are commanded to LOVE our enemies. Not just put up with them, not just pray that they will be saved one day, or even pray that they will be blessed. So, if you're picking out what you're willing to love about someone, are you really loving them, or are you just loving the bits and pieces that you like or agree with?

But again, you're back on the idea that you can love without understanding (i don't see any room for doubt with this idea). But that's really not what I'm asking. I'm asking if we do truly understand, does it lead unavoidably to love? If we truly understand, can we avoid empathic tolerance? Or maybe even, can we ever hope to understand our enemies?

If you're seeing some link between your previous post and what I'm trying to get across, I apologize for misunderstanding. Right now it seems like we're heading in opposite directions down the same track. :S

[Jullianna]

Originally Posted by LightningClap0002

Ohhhhhh, yay! Looks like you're a perfect example.

First and foremost, if you're not familiar with Matthew 5:43-48, I think that would be a good place to start. If you are already, then we'll go from there!

Well, actually, I will jump off on a tangent for a second. "I will pray for them" is something that I recoil from pretty quickly. A lot of christians like the idea of praying at someone, or praying judgment on someone (see "Praying For You" - Jaron and the Long Road to Love). Err, not that I'm accusing you of doing this. Just something that is all too common.

I would have thought that anyone who'd read many of my posts here would understand my distain for hypocracy and the compassion of my heart for the lost, so I'm more than a little surprised and offended to find this here.

Anyways, back on topic. Luke 6:27 further expounds on the idea presented in Matthew. We are commanded to LOVE our enemies. Not just put up with them, not just pray that they will be saved one day, or even pray that they will be blessed. So, if you're picking out what you're willing to love about someone, are you really loving them, or are you just loving the bits and pieces that you like or agree with?

But again, you're back on the idea that you can love without understanding (i don't see any room for doubt with this idea). But that's really not what I'm asking. I'm asking if we do truly understand, does it lead unavoidably to love? If we truly understand, can we avoid empathic tolerance? Or maybe even, can we ever hope to understand our enemies?

If you're seeing some link between your previous post and what I'm trying to get across, I apologize for misunderstanding. Right now it seems like we're heading in opposite directions down the same track. :S

I can understand hurt, loss, greed, emptiness, the desire to belong that leads one to do such things, but to try and get inside someone's mind to the degree that they would desire to harm the innocent is something I have no desire to do. It's unwise and dangerous. And I don't think it's necessary to do so in order to have the sort of compassion (love) toward them we are commanded to show or a desire to see them restored to God.

But..this is your thread and I'm obviously not tickling your eyes, so I'll leave you with it. God bless!

Peace out

[LightningClap0002]

Originally Posted by Jullianna

I can understand hurt, loss, greed, emptiness, the desire to belong that leads one to do such things, but to try and get inside someone's mind to the degree that they would desire to harm the innocent is something I have no desire to do. It's unwise and dangerous. And I don't think it's necessary to do so in order to have the sort of compassion (love) toward them we are commanded to show or a desire to see them restored to God.

But..this is your thread and I'm obviously not tickling your eyes, so I'll leave you with it. God bless!

Peace out

I certainly didn't mean to offend you. It really was a tangent, you just reminded me of it.

I guess I just see love at a different level than compassion. Then again, I don't know that I've ever really had to deal with anyone I would call my enemy, so maybe our experiences are disparate.

From where I sit, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond that which you're considering unwise and dangerous. But maybe that's just a fanciful idea. You do have some many, err few, err couple of years of experience on me.

Also, did I mention that my cornea has no sensation. You can't tickle my eye... or hurt it for that matter, sorry. Did I mention that I appreciate your engagement?

[Ritter]

Originally Posted by LightningClap0002

I certainly didn't mean to offend you. It really was a tangent, you just reminded me of it.

I guess I just see love at a different level than compassion. Then again, I don't know that I've ever really had to deal with anyone I would call my enemy, so maybe our experiences are disparate.

From where I sit, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond that which you're considering unwise and dangerous. But maybe that's just a fanciful idea. You do have some many, err few, err couple of years of experience on me.

Also, did I mention that my cornea has no sensation. You can't tickle my eye... or hurt it for that matter, sorry. Did I mention that I appreciate your engagement?

Have you read Ender's Game?

[LightningClap0002]

Originally Posted by Ritter

Have you read Ender's Game?

/favorite

I guess maybe I should have cited the source of the quote in the OP.

It's truly interesting in my mind. A work of fiction written by an outspoken mormon. Not exactly where you'd expect to find truth, but something about the level of empathy displayed seemed to burst with something more than just worldly intellect.

[Jullianna]

Originally Posted by LightningClap0002

I certainly didn't mean to offend you. It really was a tangent, you just reminded me of it.

I guess I just see love at a different level than compassion. Then again, I don't know that I've ever really had to deal with anyone I would call my enemy, so maybe our experiences are disparate.

From where I sit, there is a level of understanding that goes beyond that which you're considering unwise and dangerous. But maybe that's just a fanciful idea. You do have some many, err few, err couple of years of experience on me.

Also, did I mention that my cornea has no sensation. You can't tickle my eye... or hurt it for that matter, sorry. Did I mention that I appreciate your engagement?

"Agape has been expounded on by many Christian writers in a specifically Christian context. C. S. Lewis, in his book The Four Loves, used agape to describe what he believed was the highest level of love known to humanity—a selfless love, a love that was passionately committed to the well-being of the other.[6] In his book, The Pilgrimage, author Paulo Coelho defines it as "the love that consumes," i.e., the highest and purest form of love, one that surpasses all other types of affection."

^^For me, this equals boundless compassion and empathy.^^
It's all good. Experience has taught me that it can be a little turbulent when theory meets reality. Reality bites. Hard.

[Jullianna]

My thought processes last night took me off on a bit of a tangent as well. I was thinking about theories and how the major flaw in many of them is the human factor (just ask the Economic Super Committee ). Things can make so much sense on the pages of a book, but when faced with the apathy and selfishness of the human condition, the end result can be something quite different..and frustrating, can't it?

God has done absolutely everything He can to restore mankind to Himself, and continues to provide for and love beyond our imaginings even those who rage against Him. You would think that on some level everyone would understand that, but they don't. For me, this defies all logic. But, again, when I factor in human apathy, selfishness, greed, pride, lust, and so many other pitifully shiny nouns standing in the way of a noun that should become a verb, love, I don't like the answer, but I do understand.

[Ritter]

Originally Posted by LightningClap0002

/favorite

I guess maybe I should have cited the source of the quote in the OP.

It's truly interesting in my mind. A work of fiction written by an outspoken mormon. Not exactly where you'd expect to find truth, but something about the level of empathy displayed seemed to burst with something more than just worldly intellect.

One of my favorite books for all the reasons you have mentioned and more. It is Card's wisdom that will make Ender's Game a widely read classic exceeding anything ever written by dickens.

Ladies and gentlemen: you want the great American novel? Read Dune then Ender's Game

Originally Posted by Jullianna

My thought processes last night took me off on a bit of a tangent as well. I was thinking about theories and how the major flaw in many of them is the human factor (just ask the Economic Super Committee ). Things can make so much sense on the pages of a book, but when faced with the apathy and selfishness of the human condition, the end result can be something quite different..and frustrating, can't it?

God has done absolutely everything He can to restore mankind to Himself, and continues to provide for and love beyond our imaginings even those who rage against Him. You would think that on some level everyone would understand that, but they don't. For me, this defies all logic. But, again, when I factor in human apathy, selfishness, greed, pride, lust, and so many other pitifully shiny nouns standing in the way of a noun that should become a verb, love, I don't like the answer, but I do understand.

Opening the door for another modern classic: Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. I can sum it up for you: two schools of thought. One believes in the overwhelming potential of human nature if only directed by the right man or group of people. The other believes everyone is equally lost and a technocratic dictatorship is the equivalent of the blind leading the blind.

[Jullianna]

Originally Posted by Ritter

Opening the door for another modern classic: Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. I can sum it up for you: two schools of thought. One believes in the overwhelming potential of human nature if only directed by the right man or group of people. The other believes everyone is equally lost and a technocratic dictatorship is the equivalent of the blind leading the blind.

At first brief ponderance, I think we do have great potential, but I don't think any man can bring that about; and we all were lost at some point, but a dictatorship would not be of God. It would be an interesting read though. Thanks!

[Ritter]

Originally Posted by Jullianna

At first brief ponderance, I think we do have great potential, but I don't think any man can bring that about; and we all were lost at some point, but a dictatorship would not be of God. It would be an interesting read though. Thanks!

Humanity is fundamentally a mix of good and evil. Thankfully, to curb the evil part there are convenient time-honored institutions that restrain his evil nature. Combine these with systems that economize it when it cannot be restrained legally, and we have ourselves plenty of potential.

The kind of potential that gives us penicillin, electric lights, Carnegie Steel, blue jeans, and people being sent into orbit.

[Ritter]

The evil is often a greater threat than good a constant help. Why? It is often easier to destroy than create.

[Jullianna]

Originally Posted by Ritter

Humanity is fundamentally a mix of good and evil. Thankfully, to curb the evil part there are convenient time-honored institutions that restrain his evil nature. Combine these with systems that economize it when it cannot be restrained legally, and we have ourselves plenty of potential.

The kind of potential that gives us penicillin, electric lights, Carnegie Steel, blue jeans, and people being sent into orbit.

Those things are great, but there's so much more, you know? I seek resolution of these things, not shock and awe or creature comforts:

The end of slavery of all kinds
All children sleeping safely and peacefully at night
An end to torture
An end to prejudice
The protection of childhood innocence
So much more...