Marrying Well: The Broken Man Syndrome

[alienx7587]

DISCLAIMER: After much consideration and deliberation, I have decided to proceed in writing out yet another grievance in regards to singles within the confines of the church body. Though I cannot promise this will be the last, I can promise that the purpose is not to point fingers in complaint. Rather, it is to promote bridging the gap between genders and promote communication and brainstorming as to why such trends have occurred and how, together, we can encourage each other in getting back on course. That being said, this has nothing to do with any particular situation I'm in, but everything to do with the trend itself and how it effects inter-relational bonds among singles in the church. It is not my intention to begin nor will I partake in any political argument.

The Subconscious Pull
It's no secret that people tend to gravitate toward other people with the same interests. I still remember a sobering seminar I went to when I was younger. The speaker was dying from a terminal disease (Hepatitis) that he had contracted over the years of his rampant drug use and sexual escapades. There was a keynote in his speech that I considered especially thought provoking:

If you have a room filled with random people who have never done drugs before, and place in it two people (regardless of gender) who were users but don't know each other, they will undoubtedly slowly gravitate toward one another. Seemingly bypassing the 'clean' people in the room.

Though the above is clearly just a theory, there are some truths to it. You see the same phenomena in every day life: women (plural) generally flock to the nearest MACYS, while their male counterparts (en masse) high tail it to the nearest Best Buy tentatively planning to rendezvous at the Food Court (another guy thing). (Pardon the French. ) Keep this in mind though, you will need it to understand the rest of the article.

The "Good" Husband
The 1950's in America was the Golden Age. Everything flourished in the post-war economy. The marriage rate was at it's highest and divorce rate at it's lowest. Families were growing so fast that there was a housing shortage. Sears & Roebuck were selling houses faster than they could be built. The G.I. Bill made sure that colleges saw an influx of young men entering the realm of higher education. In any given group of people, if you weren't a protestant, you were probably in the minority. Likewise, if you were an idle young man, you were held in contempt by your peers and female counterparts.

These young men, part of the "greatest generation", had arrived home as war heroes. They had defeated Nazism, Fascism, and Imperialism and restored security in a free world. These men had humble beginnings, though. Many suffered starvation and poverty during a great world depression and epic drought in the American mid-west (which provided bread and other foodstuffs to countries throughout the world). Now, they had seen countless atrocities and what one human was capable of doing to another. As I overhead my uncle say to someone: "I've seen more blood than you will see in your entire life".

Nevertheless, many men came home and traded in their uniforms for their Sunday morning shirt and tie hoping for a life of peace and prosperity. They knew what it was like to live without. They knew what it was like to experience death and inescapable fear. They knew they needed to count their blessings. Of course, some cheated and did other terrible things, generally they knew they had to sacrifice for their committed marriage and make good husbands. (That being said, many also had socio-psychological issues later in life, but that's a different topic). They didn't dare embarrass their family in front of their church or community.

Fast forward to contemporary America and consider the young men in our broken society. Very few choose to take responsibility for their actions. This is usually because their parents failed to hold them accountable when they were younger. Indeed even their parents failed to hold them accountable for their actions. This laziness has been degrading the protestant work ethic and promoted entitlement for generations. (Obviously the same applies to young woman, but for the sake of the article we're focusing on men).

Yes, in this recession there is a lot of poverty and suffering going on. However, one way or another some men still tend to get what they want without working very hard (or living in government housing on government checks and food stamps). Whether it's a pack of cigarettes, lotto tickets, alcohol, voyeurism (strip club) or any other vice. It's much easier to support yourself and your desires than to sacrifice for others. How sad and selfish!

Ladies it is imperative to understand that until a man (Christian or not) can grasp what it means to live "without", continually honors his commitments and takes responsibility for himself and his actions, he will not graduate to manhood. Taking responsibility is not easy, and usually it happens forcefully, not willingly. It usually requires one to rise to the occasion and sacrifice in order to provide for [whoever it may be] regardless of age. However, this is no reason for leniency. It is merely the making of a man. In fact, leniency can be debilitating and emasculating in some cases.

Broken Man Syndrome
It is important, however, that we not confused leniency with kindness and courtesy. After all, there is a stark difference between saying 'no' to someone and simply walking away leaving them wondering. Kindness and respect should be a goal all Christians strive for, regardless of gender.

I (and other men in the church) have witnessed an increasingly popular trend. It goes something like this: young boys get raised up in a church. They make it through elementary school and maybe middle school. Then by high school young men are seemingly gone from the equation. If these boys do return to church, it usually isn't until they are in their mid-late 20's, and they bring a lot baggage with them. Nevertheless, they have returned and proclaimed their life has been miraculously restored by God. Then it begins, regardless of what they've done or where they have been, the young single woman (who openly complain about the lack of viable men in their congregation) seemingly swoon. Then soon after he arrives, he begins dating the nicest girl in the church. This, of course, leaves the men who remained in the church when they were younger scratching their heads.

There are obviously countless variables for this. However, I have some theories:

The Excitement Factor- Women like meeting new people and hearing stories. I think this is especially true in smaller congregations. I'm sure it's very exciting to meet a new man and hear of his experiences. Maybe this is some sort of Christian version of Bad Boy Syndrome?

The Brokenness Factor- This goes back to the first segment of the article. I think it is possible some women gravitate toward men who share a mutual past. (Similar to the poor father/poor husband theory).

The Competition Factor- Many woman vs. one new guy. This is self explanatory.

The Fix-it-Up Factor- OK, this one is widely speculated amongst Christian men. Basically, women like ,no, love a man they feel they can change. Especially if it has to do with changing mannerisms, etiquette or a general change of heart. Again, Bad Boy Syndrome?

The Appearance Factor- Ever notice how men who live in the world tend to physically look strapping, well built and well groomed? Of course you have! It's no secret men in the church aren't as appealing, whether it's because they are not a quarter-back or it's because they are balding. By the way, in ancient Greece it was said that bald men were the wisest. (An adage I still believe is true!) At any rate, ladies, the Homer (minus the blindness) that greets you at the door as you walk in every Sunday is probably just as much of a man than the new guy (a basketball player) who sits behind you during the service.

In summation, I think it is very important that whoever reads this takes into consideration that this is not a rant against woman in the church, but a caution and advisement. That is to say, these are words of love- not spitefulness. Ladies, the next time you are feeling irritated about singleness and the thinning crowd of young men in your congregation, think twice about the men that are in your congregation. Sure, they may need some maturing (maybe even a light slam across the face to wake them up). Regardless, I implore you to think deeply about what it takes to be a man and what you can do you encourage them. If the men in your church are still not doing the asking, call on the church matrons and ask them what you can do to drop hints. Hints are OK, but don't do any asking. After all, you don't want to be lenient!

Peace be with you.

[alienx7587]

I don't think I'll ever understand why there are only five minutes to edit posts, but readers please note the following changes/statements:

1) Under The 'Good' Husband
Ladies it is imperative to understand that until a man can grasp what it means to live "without", continually honors his commitments and takes responsibility for himself and his actions while simultaneously maintaining his relationship with Christ, he will not graduate to manhood.

2) Under Broken Man Syndrome
We have a just God and His mercy extends as far as the East is from the West. He is able to do anything He pleases. It is He who walks and teaches among the "lowly" in society and picks them up. That being said, He is able to save even the most evil and lost of living mankind.

[AAAPlus]

I don't mean offense, but this is just kind of a rant. Most of what you're saying is just opinion based on your limited observation. You list these "factors" for women, but what you're really listing applies to GIRLS not women. Girls are immature, and make romantic decisions based on stuff like "newness" or "bad boys". While the age that girls become women is probably getting higher, you seem to be applying these qualities to the entire female species.

Also, why do you think guys in the church are ugly and/or balding? That's very presumptuous. And plenty of churched gentlemen are pairing off with churched ladies. At least at my church, few of the ladies 18-24 date at all, and the ones that do generally go for the guys who have been around a while. And there is the one guy there who most of the girls have a crush on, and he has been going to church his whole life. He's very good looking and not a "bad boy" type in the least.

I also have a hard time believing that things were much better in the 1950's. All we have are stories of old folks and TV reminiscing about the "good ol' days". We hear only the positive stories and not the negative (of which I'm sure there were plenty).

[Jordache]

Love it Alien. You're very insightful.

[alienx7587]

Originally Posted by AAAPlus

I don't mean offense, but this is just kind of a rant. Most of what you're saying is just opinion based on your limited observation. You list these "factors" for women, but what you're really listing applies to GIRLS not women. Girls are immature, and make romantic decisions based on stuff like "newness" or "bad boys". While the age that girls become women is probably getting higher, you seem to be applying these qualities to the entire female species.

Also, why do you think guys in the church are ugly and/or balding? That's very presumptuous. And plenty of churched gentlemen are pairing off with churched ladies. At least at my church, few of the ladies 18-24 date at all, and the ones that do generally go for the guys who have been around a while. And there is the one guy there who most of the girls have a crush on, and he has been going to church his whole life. He's very good looking and not a "bad boy" type in the least.

I also have a hard time believing that things were much better in the 1950's. All we have are stories of old folks and TV reminiscing about the "good ol' days". We hear only the positive stories and not the negative (of which I'm sure there were plenty).

If this were a rant it would have been hostile and condemning.

I didn't mean to generalize, and you're right, when this sort of thing happens usually there is a maturity issue. But it does happen (at least in the churches in this area) and it happens in the confines of a wide age range.

You're reading too much into it. I did not mean to imply that men in the church are 'ugly'. Sin itself is the epitome of ugliness.

I just want to hear if possible other thoughts as to why these interactions take place and what the thought process might be on the woman's side of things. Like I said, there are plenty of different factors and variables. If this isn't happening in your church or your area, then I'm glad for you.

As for the 1950's, you can take or leave what you want. I've studied history (especially U.S. history) for many, many years and this is my conclusion.

[Ugly]

The reason for the 5 minute edit window is they don't want someone making a post, getting responses, then changing their post or response, thereby messing up the flow of the conversation.
Also they don't want trolls posting bad things, then having time to change it before mods can see it for themselves.

[VikkiKate89]

I'm gonna have to agree with AAAPlus on this one. A lot of this is a mixture of generalization and limited to your own opinion. The 1950's were not as ideal as they seemed and most the problems you've listed that exist in today's day and age were very much existent back then too (and they were probably talking back then about how people were more dignified and responsible in the earlier 1900's because those were "the good ol' days."). Also your speculations on the physical appearance of men who have left the church vs men who have stayed in the church is utterly absurd. I'm not saying that it's not a problem you might deal with in your own church, but of all the churches I attended (which is at least 4 that I can remember) that was never the case. There was a pretty even distribution of unattractive vs attractive men on both sides.

I don't mean to be rude, but this very much reads as the classic "Why do girls never want the good guy?" complaint but with a religious twist. And I won't deny there's some truth to it, but it's not as generalized as you've stated it. Honestly, the only thing that made the men who returned to the faith more appealing was knowing they actually had been in the outside world and could talk about sin from their own personal experience. I don't know how to really put it in words without unintentionally devaluing the struggles that a believer who never walked away still faced (because I know they still have struggles), but there always seems to be more substance in the words of someone who had turned away, battled with sin, and then got saved or returned to the faith vs someone who stayed in the church and never had to deal with those same struggles because they never questioned their faith. It just never felt like the men who stayed had been in that situation where you're pretty much forced to finally decide what you believe and have decided for yourself why you believe it. Questioning faith is a natural part of growing up with religion and maturing and to me it always seemed comforting to be with a man who has been there and back and can talk to you about it first hand vs a man who never seemed to have a problem with faith and never had that experience.

Again, I know men who stay in the church still have problems of their own that they have to face, and I'm not trying to devalue that at all. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective. It's not the "bad boy" thing or the "fixer upper" thing either. It's just knowing that they can tell you from personal experience why they believe what they believe and feeling they genuinely know what they're talking about because they've been there.

[alienx7587]

Originally Posted by VikkiKate89

...this very much reads as the classic "Why do girls never want the good guy?" complaint but with a religious twist. And I won't deny there's some truth to it, but it's not as generalized as you've stated it. Honestly, the only thing that made the men who returned to the faith more appealing was knowing they actually had been in the outside world and could talk about sin from their own personal experience. I don't know how to really put it in words without unintentionally devaluing the struggles that a believer who never walked away still faced (because I know they still have struggles), but there always seems to be more substance in the words of someone who had turned away, battled with sin, and then got saved or returned to the faith vs someone who stayed in the church and never had to deal with those same struggles because they never questioned their faith. It just never felt like the men who stayed had been in that situation where you're pretty much forced to finally decide what you believe and have decided for yourself why you believe it. Questioning faith is a natural part of growing up with religion and maturing and to me it always seemed comforting to be with a man who has been there and back and can talk to you about it first hand vs a man who never seemed to have a problem with faith and never had that experience.

Again, I know men who stay in the church still have problems of their own that they have to face, and I'm not trying to devalue that at all. I'm just trying to offer a different perspective. It's not the "bad boy" thing or the "fixer upper" thing either. It's just knowing that they can tell you from personal experience why they believe what they believe and feeling they genuinely know what they're talking about because they've been there.

^This is the type of response post I'm looking for. Well thought out. Thank you.

I'm not here to generalize or point the finger and I'm not here to argue about history.

[alienx7587]

Originally Posted by VikkiKate89

Honestly, the only thing that made the men who returned to the faith more appealing was knowing they actually had been in the outside world and could talk about sin from their own personal experience. I don't know how to really put it in words without unintentionally devaluing the struggles that a believer who never walked away still faced (because I know they still have struggles), but there always seems to be more substance in the words of someone who had turned away, battled with sin, and then got saved or returned to the faith vs someone who stayed in the church and never had to deal with those same struggles because they never questioned their faith. It just never felt like the men who stayed had been in that situation where you're pretty much forced to finally decide what you believe and have decided for yourself why you believe it.

I may be digging myself a hole, but let's run with this for a moment.

1) It's important not to get into intimate conversation with an individual too soon after you being dating. It's equally important not to have deep and intimate conversations before you start dating. That being said, what if the men (or "some" men since I'll be hanged for generalizing) had committed sins so sinister they could not immediately confess to you? Are you saying it would be easier to talk with them if you knew about their sin? If so, how and when would you expect them to tell you about it?

If your church is anything like mine, there always those people who you see on Sunday yet have no idea what they're up to Monday-Saturday.

2) Paul states to the people of Corinth that Christians should be equally yoked. Most Christians take this to mean "a Christian can only marry another Christian". This is only partially true. What this passage really means (and I've spoken in depth about this with a doctor of theology) in terms of romantic relationships is that as Christians, we should be building relationships with people who are at or about the same spiritual maturity as us, so we can help one another grow in Christ and not be "stumbling blocks" (v.3) to one another. Do you believe a young woman, who has been part of the church her whole life (never leaving) is equally yoked when she begins a path of courtship with a newly found Christian man who had spent part of his life indulging in or "battling" sin? The best way to battle sin is to battle it as part of the church, there's safety in numbers.

[Jullianna]

First, this post is very long...whew

I'm sorry you are experiencing these things, but, in 23+ years of attending different churches, both as a dating teen/now dating adult and prevously married youth leader for years, I have not found many of these things to be the norm.


It is not the bad boy or a christian version thereof that girls are attracted to, it's the testosterone and confidence. It's the guy who knows who he is, knows how best to showcase his most attractive attributes in a non-arrogant/approachable way, knows how to engage a girl in comfortable (not awkward) conversation and in a way that leaves a young lady feeling good about herself, whether he has walked with the Lord all of his life or not.

As far as the "worldly wise" thing goes, I don't necessarily agree with it, but some women feel that such a man might be better able to protect them and more ready to handle the things life throws at them. I disagree because a strong man of God can be far more capable in these areas.

I also agree with many of the points AAAPlus and VikkiKate made, especially with regard to the maturity of the girls you describe, but attempt to avoid redundancy at all costs. I think you recognize this too, as you refer to them as "girls" for the most part rather than ladies or women. When someone is still being described as a "girl", she isn't ready for a serious relationship anyway.

[CC_Bride]

I feel torn lol.

I agree with what alien is saying generally speaking, but I also agree with mostly everyone else.

[kayem77]

Hmmmm good observations....I agree in so many things with Vikkitate, AAAPlus and Jullianna.
I don't want the ''christian version'' of a bad boy, I want a guy who SINCERELY and DEEPLY loves the Lord and that should be exciting, not just a churchgoer who has been attending church since he was in the womb but has no passion for the Lord. I really think that when you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally love the Lord, having been a christian for a few months can be enough, his past is his past if we are assuming that this guy really gave himself to Christ.

I think that instead of exhorting women or anyone to pay attention to the old members of the church we should exhort ourselves to mature in Christ, we should make sure that we are a light to the world. If the new guy (or girl) at church makes you look bad even though he is new in his faith....maybe the problem is you, maybe you are too comfortable in your walk, maybe you don't shine anymore (Btw when I say ''you'' I'm not literally saying you Alien it's a general ''you'').

To be honest, im my short experience in church, I have noticed that some people who come from christian families, men and women, become too used to it that when they talk about God it seems like they are talking about the weather .......like an ''everyday,non-extraordinay'' thing that is out there everyday just as always.That's sad! I prefer talking to the new christian guy who seems like a child discovering the new world around him because God really is wonderful and he knows it! I think that's the appealing of those new guys with their stories about the Lord and I'm assuming those are the guys you are talking about.

Anyway, in my experience, I have met people who were raised christians who also shine for their faith and they aren't single and they are in relationships with girls who were also in the church.
As I see it, if you see that a woman chooses a guy just because he is new and ''interesting''(not necessarily a staunch christian) , that means that she is not mature enough to be in a relationship. If she chooses him because he is a man made after God's image, even though he just recently converted, I don't see what's wrong with it.

The parable of the workers in the vineyard came into my mind...as well as this verse when you mentioned the ''Gold Age'' because I really believe the good old days are just a myth .
Ecclesiastes 7:10: Don’t long for “the good old days.” This is not wise.

P.S. I just want to make clear again that I do appreciate a man who hasn't backed out from his walk. One of my best friends was raised christian and she introduced Christ into my life .

[zeroturbulence]

Originally Posted by kayem77

...To be honest, im my short experience in church, I have noticed that some people who come from christian families, men and women, become too used to it that when they talk about God it seems like they are talking about the weather .......like an ''everyday,non-extraordinay'' thing that is out there everyday just as always.That's sad! I prefer talking to the new christian guy who seems like a child discovering the new world around him because God really is wonderful and he knows it!...

Amen!! I know exactly what you mean., Ms. K.

[Liamson]

As one of the "Broken Men" he's referring to, who has seen the darkside and returned bearing gifts, I feel like alienx is the Older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

...And much as Kayem said understanding the truth means that I appreciate my own need for forgiveness more than I did when I was just attending the church.

If you want to know the truth, Worry about the Kingdom and the righteousness of Christ. Win souls for Him and he will take care of all of your needs, no matter how big or how small. He knows the desire of your heart (Psalm 20) and He delights in doing good for His children. If you are focused on women then you are not focused on Him. Abraham wanted a son and he offered his only legitimate heir to God as a sacrifice in obedience. Out of love for our Father sacrifice This fixation and set your gaze on the Lord.

Even though I spent 6 years in the Navy sinning my pants off, there is nothing more that I want to do but praise God for His work of Salvation through His son Jesus Christ. Paul said for us not to compare ourselves to others. We must be like the politician who pounded his chest and cried out for forgiveness in anguish. We must be like the man who sold EVERYTHING he owned for a field that held the promise of treasure.


I'm not promoting a Joel Osteen style message of do this and receive a treat. All I'm saying is that until we do this, everything that was less or before amounts to a pile of rotten vegetables.

[alienx7587]

Originally Posted by CC_Bride

I feel torn lol.

I agree with what alien is saying generally speaking, but I also agree with mostly everyone else.

If you feel this way, that means you understood the article. That is to say, a good read is meant to provoke you to think without completely going against your ideology.

Originally Posted by kayem77

Hmmmm good observations....I agree in so many things with Vikkitate, AAAPlus and Jullianna.
I don't want the ''christian version'' of a bad boy, I want a guy who SINCERELY and DEEPLY loves the Lord and that should be exciting, not just a churchgoer who has been attending church since he was in the womb but has no passion for the Lord. I really think that when you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaally love the Lord, having been a christian for a few months can be enough, his past is his past if we are assuming that this guy really gave himself to Christ.

I think that instead of exhorting women or anyone to pay attention to the old members of the church we should exhort ourselves to mature in Christ, we should make sure that we are a light to the world. If the new guy (or girl) at church makes you look bad even though he is new in his faith....maybe the problem is you, maybe you are too comfortable in your walk, maybe you don't shine anymore (Btw when I say ''you'' I'm not literally saying you Alien it's a general ''you'').

To be honest, im my short experience in church, I have noticed that some people who come from christian families, men and women, become too used to it that when they talk about God it seems like they are talking about the weather .......like an ''everyday,non-extraordinay'' thing that is out there everyday just as always.That's sad! I prefer talking to the new christian guy who seems like a child discovering the new world around him because God really is wonderful and he knows it! I think that's the appealing of those new guys with their stories about the Lord and I'm assuming those are the guys you are talking about.

Anyway, in my experience, I have met people who were raised christians who also shine for their faith and they aren't single and they are in relationships with girls who were also in the church.
As I see it, if you see that a woman chooses a guy just because he is new and ''interesting''(not necessarily a staunch christian) , that means that she is not mature enough to be in a relationship. If she chooses him because he is a man made after God's image, even though he just recently converted, I don't see what's wrong with it.

The parable of the workers in the vineyard came into my mind...as well as this verse when you mentioned the ''Gold Age'' because I really believe the good old days are just a myth .
Ecclesiastes 7:10: Don’t long for “the good old days.” This is not wise.

P.S. I just want to make clear again that I do appreciate a man who hasn't backed out from his walk. One of my best friends was raised christian and she introduced Christ into my life .

Thank you for this very interesting post! So what you're saying is, a lot of men who stay in the church take for granted their Christian fellowship, while new Christians beam with excitement after returning from the world. Would it be safe to say then, that in time these new Christians will also lose their luster? Might this be the cause for so many failed marriages and relationships?

It sounds like your saying (with the exception of your married friends) that Christian men are basically boring. How do you propose men who stayed in the church regain this child-like excitement? I think we can all agree that relationships need to be maintained and ones relationship with Christ is no exception.

Originally Posted by Liamson

As one of the "Broken Men" he's referring to, who has seen the darkside and returned bearing gifts, I feel like alienx is the Older brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son.

I'm sorry you feel this way, brother. Like I said in the disclaimer, it's just another topic. I do my best not to take my own feelings into account when I post. I much prefer a pragmatic approach.

Originally Posted by Liamson

...And much as Kayem said understanding the truth means that I appreciate my own need for forgiveness more than I did when I was just attending the church.

If you want to know the truth, Worry about the Kingdom and the righteousness of Christ. Win souls for Him and he will take care of all of your needs, no matter how big or how small. He knows the desire of your heart (Psalm 20) and He delights in doing good for His children. If you are focused on women then you are not focused on Him. Abraham wanted a son and he offered his only legitimate heir to God as a sacrifice in obedience. Out of love for our Father sacrifice This fixation and set your gaze on the Lord.

Even though I spent 6 years in the Navy sinning my pants off, there is nothing more that I want to do but praise God for His work of Salvation through His son Jesus Christ. Paul said for us not to compare ourselves to others. We must be like the politician who pounded his chest and cried out for forgiveness in anguish. We must be like the man who sold EVERYTHING he owned for a field that held the promise of treasure.


I'm not promoting a Joel Osteen style message of do this and receive a treat. All I'm saying is that until we do this, everything that was less or before amounts to a pile of rotten vegetables.

Like I said in my second post, only God has the power to change the hearts of men. If He chooses to turn the most sinful man on earth around, I have full confidence and faith that He can do so. When this happens it is most certainly cause for celebration!

I think what your wondering is what the OP is intuitively asking. Now, before I get hanged for using the word 'judge' let's be clear: in conjunction with prayer and His will, God wants His children to pass GOOD (not condemning or self-righteous) judgements on people. So, how are these women judging these new Christians in the church? One woman said they were looking for the fruits they bear. Can someone be more specific?

[Liamson]

As a man I know that I find a woman who has seen the Darkside and chosen to return to the light of much greater value than one who has never been tested.

The Bible says to be in the world but not of the world.

I think they are judging these men as now having the ability to navigate life without a fear of being deceived.

Take Han Solo for instance, kind of a reformed 'bad guy.' All of the qualities that made him a scoundrel also serve to make him an excellent good guy. In essence he's pretty much the opposite of C-3PO who never does anything wrong but also never wants to get his hands dirty or go anywhere.

[zeroturbulence]

Originally Posted by Liamson

Take Han Solo for instance, kind of a reformed 'bad guy.' All of the qualities that made him a scoundrel also serve to make him an excellent good guy. In essence he's pretty much the opposite of C-3PO who never does anything wrong but also never wants to get his hands dirty or go anywhere.

That's bloody brilliant!!

[zeroturbulence]

Originally Posted by alienx7587

DISCLAIMER: After much consideration and deliberation, I have decided to proceed in writing out yet another grievance in regards to singles within the confines of the church body. Though I cannot promise this will be the last, I can promise that the purpose is not to point fingers in complaint. Rather, it is to promote bridging the gap between genders and promote communication and brainstorming as to why such trends have occurred and how, together, we can encourage each other in getting back on course. That being said, this has nothing to do with any particular situation I'm in, but everything to do with the trend itself and how it effects inter-relational bonds among singles in the church. It is not my intention to begin nor will I partake in any political argument.

The Subconscious Pull
It's no secret that people tend to gravitate toward other people with the same interests. I still remember a sobering seminar I went to when I was younger. The speaker was dying from a terminal disease (Hepatitis) that he had contracted over the years of his rampant drug use and sexual escapades. There was a keynote in his speech that I considered especially thought provoking:

If you have a room filled with random people who have never done drugs before, and place in it two people (regardless of gender) who were users but don't know each other, they will undoubtedly slowly gravitate toward one another. Seemingly bypassing the 'clean' people in the room.

Though the above is clearly just a theory, there are some truths to it. You see the same phenomena in every day life: women (plural) generally flock to the nearest MACYS, while their male counterparts (en masse) high tail it to the nearest Best Buy tentatively planning to rendezvous at the Food Court (another guy thing). (Pardon the French. ) Keep this in mind though, you will need it to understand the rest of the article.

The "Good" Husband
The 1950's in America was the Golden Age. Everything flourished in the post-war economy. The marriage rate was at it's highest and divorce rate at it's lowest. Families were growing so fast that there was a housing shortage. Sears & Roebuck were selling houses faster than they could be built. The G.I. Bill made sure that colleges saw an influx of young men entering the realm of higher education. In any given group of people, if you weren't a protestant, you were probably in the minority. Likewise, if you were an idle young man, you were held in contempt by your peers and female counterparts.

These young men, part of the "greatest generation", had arrived home as war heroes. They had defeated Nazism, Fascism, and Imperialism and restored security in a free world. These men had humble beginnings, though. Many suffered starvation and poverty during a great world depression and epic drought in the American mid-west (which provided bread and other foodstuffs to countries throughout the world). Now, they had seen countless atrocities and what one human was capable of doing to another. As I overhead my uncle say to someone: "I've seen more blood than you will see in your entire life".

Nevertheless, many men came home and traded in their uniforms for their Sunday morning shirt and tie hoping for a life of peace and prosperity. They knew what it was like to live without. They knew what it was like to experience death and inescapable fear. They knew they needed to count their blessings. Of course, some cheated and did other terrible things, generally they knew they had to sacrifice for their committed marriage and make good husbands. (That being said, many also had socio-psychological issues later in life, but that's a different topic). They didn't dare embarrass their family in front of their church or community.

Fast forward to contemporary America and consider the young men in our broken society. Very few choose to take responsibility for their actions. This is usually because their parents failed to hold them accountable when they were younger. Indeed even their parents failed to hold them accountable for their actions. This laziness has been degrading the protestant work ethic and promoted entitlement for generations. (Obviously the same applies to young woman, but for the sake of the article we're focusing on men).

Yes, in this recession there is a lot of poverty and suffering going on. However, one way or another some men still tend to get what they want without working very hard (or living in government housing on government checks and food stamps). Whether it's a pack of cigarettes, lotto tickets, alcohol, voyeurism (strip club) or any other vice. It's much easier to support yourself and your desires than to sacrifice for others. How sad and selfish!

Ladies it is imperative to understand that until a man (Christian or not) can grasp what it means to live "without", continually honors his commitments and takes responsibility for himself and his actions, he will not graduate to manhood. Taking responsibility is not easy, and usually it happens forcefully, not willingly. It usually requires one to rise to the occasion and sacrifice in order to provide for [whoever it may be] regardless of age. However, this is no reason for leniency. It is merely the making of a man. In fact, leniency can be debilitating and emasculating in some cases.

Broken Man Syndrome
It is important, however, that we not confused leniency with kindness and courtesy. After all, there is a stark difference between saying 'no' to someone and simply walking away leaving them wondering. Kindness and respect should be a goal all Christians strive for, regardless of gender.

I (and other men in the church) have witnessed an increasingly popular trend. It goes something like this: young boys get raised up in a church. They make it through elementary school and maybe middle school. Then by high school young men are seemingly gone from the equation. If these boys do return to church, it usually isn't until they are in their mid-late 20's, and they bring a lot baggage with them. Nevertheless, they have returned and proclaimed their life has been miraculously restored by God. Then it begins, regardless of what they've done or where they have been, the young single woman (who openly complain about the lack of viable men in their congregation) seemingly swoon. Then soon after he arrives, he begins dating the nicest girl in the church. This, of course, leaves the men who remained in the church when they were younger scratching their heads.

There are obviously countless variables for this. However, I have some theories:

The Excitement Factor- Women like meeting new people and hearing stories. I think this is especially true in smaller congregations. I'm sure it's very exciting to meet a new man and hear of his experiences. Maybe this is some sort of Christian version of Bad Boy Syndrome?

The Brokenness Factor- This goes back to the first segment of the article. I think it is possible some women gravitate toward men who share a mutual past. (Similar to the poor father/poor husband theory).

The Competition Factor- Many woman vs. one new guy. This is self explanatory.

The Fix-it-Up Factor- OK, this one is widely speculated amongst Christian men. Basically, women like ,no, love a man they feel they can change. Especially if it has to do with changing mannerisms, etiquette or a general change of heart. Again, Bad Boy Syndrome?

The Appearance Factor- Ever notice how men who live in the world tend to physically look strapping, well built and well groomed? Of course you have! It's no secret men in the church aren't as appealing, whether it's because they are not a quarter-back or it's because they are balding. By the way, in ancient Greece it was said that bald men were the wisest. (An adage I still believe is true!) At any rate, ladies, the Homer (minus the blindness) that greets you at the door as you walk in every Sunday is probably just as much of a man than the new guy (a basketball player) who sits behind you during the service.

In summation, I think it is very important that whoever reads this takes into consideration that this is not a rant against woman in the church, but a caution and advisement. That is to say, these are words of love- not spitefulness. Ladies, the next time you are feeling irritated about singleness and the thinning crowd of young men in your congregation, think twice about the men that are in your congregation. Sure, they may need some maturing (maybe even a light slam across the face to wake them up). Regardless, I implore you to think deeply about what it takes to be a man and what you can do you encourage them. If the men in your church are still not doing the asking, call on the church matrons and ask them what you can do to drop hints. Hints are OK, but don't do any asking. After all, you don't want to be lenient!

Peace be with you.

I don't mean any disrespect here sir, but really now.. all this coming from the guy who was afraid to ask a girl on faceook for her phone number?

If you want to win over a girl, you just have to have three things: confidence, charm, and the ability to make her laugh. If you've got those three, you will be asking about how to tell girls you're not interested instead of talking about how girls need to change their attitudes. Trust me on this. I don't like to see guys heartbroken and it sounds like you might be turning a little bitter towards women. I've been there many times myself and its a dark and lonely path. Just work on those three things I told you and you will be more than ok.

God bless.

[alienx7587]

Originally Posted by Liamson

As a man I know that I find a woman who has seen the Darkside and chosen to return to the light of much greater value than one who has never been tested.

The Bible says to be in the world but not of the world.

I think they are judging these men as now having the ability to navigate life without a fear of being deceived.

I feel you saying that in order to gain knowledge of the difference between good and evil, you must spend time outside the church. I disagree with this, evil invades our lives in many, many ways. Monday-Saturday people are living in the world and constantly being attacked and tempted. There are many people who have stayed in the church with a keen moral compass. They didn't have to subject themselves to lives without fellowship, they just lived their lives. Paul says to turn and run away from evil.

I do agree with you that we need to live in the world, but not be of the world.

Originally Posted by Liamson

Take Han Solo for instance, kind of a reformed 'bad guy.' All of the qualities that made him a scoundrel also serve to make him an excellent good guy. In essence he's pretty much the opposite of C-3PO who never does anything wrong but also never wants to get his hands dirty or go anywhere.

Haha! This is awesome.

Originally Posted by zeroturbulence

I don't mean any disrespect here sir, but really now.. all this coming from the guy who was afraid to ask a girl on faceook for her phone number?

If you want to win over a girl, you just have to have three things: confidence, charm, and the ability to make her laugh. If you've got those three, you will be asking about how to tell girls you're not interested instead of talking about how girls need to change their attitudes. Trust me on this. I don't like to see guys heartbroken and it sounds like you might be turning a little bitter towards women. I've been there many times myself and its a dark and lonely path. Just work on those three things I told you and you will be more than ok.

God bless.

Maybe I deserved that, and maybe I didn't. Nevertheless, let's get the facts straight. If you're referring to the actions I think you are, I believe I DID ask a women out to coffee over via a facebook message due to the fact that our schedules were opposite and did not see each other. I did NOT ask her for her phone number. I simply wondered aloud to you all why I didn't get a response (and maybe I shouldn't have, who knows!)

I understand what you're saying. However, you're seemingly placing me at the pinnacle of the argument/topic rather than giving your thoughts about the topic itself. How many times do I have to reiterate that I'm not bitter toward nor condemning women? Did you even read the Disclaimer?

[kayem77]

Originally Posted by alienx7587

Thank you for this very interesting post! So what you're saying is, a lot of men who stay in the church take for granted their Christian fellowship, while new Christians beam with excitement after returning from the world. Would it be safe to say then, that in time these new Christians will also lose their luster? Might this be the cause for so many failed marriages and relationships?

It sounds like your saying (with the exception of your married friends) that Christian men are basically boring. How do you propose men who stayed in the church regain this child-like excitement? I think we can all agree that relationships need to be maintained and ones relationship with Christ is no exception.

No, I'm not saying that christian men are boring....that was not my point at all. Yes, I think some people take for granted their relationship with Christ, especially if that's all they have known all of their lives, but I'm not by any means saying this is ALWAYS the case since I have friends who were raised christian and they aren't boring (well maybe yes accoding to the world ). This is how I see it :

1.You can be a person raised in a christian family who has christian values, goes to church, has christian friends, don't smoke nor drink, and is considered a nice person. Nevertheless, your faith doesn't move you to give more of you to God, you are therefore in what I call ''the comfort zone'' (or not being led by the Spirit) and you don't even notice. Your life is about not gettin out of that comfort zone.

2.You can be a person who was not raised in a christian family BUT you have good values, help your friends, do well in school, has fun in a healthy way and is considered a good friend and a nice person. Nevertheless, you don't believe in God or you just don't care much about it. Your life is about being succesful and being happy with what you have.

3.You can also be a person who WAS NOT raised in a christian family, used to drink or smoke or both, went to parties, had the wrong friends, behaved the wrong way, and was considered ...not a nice guy or girl. Nevertheless, you are now a born-again christian who loves the Lord and having known what being lost is you don't want ANYTHING to do with your past life. Your life is about Christ now.

4.You can also be a person raised in a christian family who has christian values, goes to church, has christian friends, don't smoke or drink, and is considered a nice person. This person does so because he understands how blessed he is to have lived close to God all his life and he doesn't want to change that. This person wants to do more for God and his life is about Christ and his relationship with him.

Now this is MY opinion : for me from these 4 groups of people #1 and #2 are the same, and #3 and #4 are the same. I think that you always make a choice, wheter you were raised christian or not, In my previous post I was assuming that the new guy at church was actually a christian who bears fruit, not just someone who started to go to church. If a God-fearing woman chooses him over guy #1, I think it's totally great.
Maybe the reason why some of the new believers show so much passion is because of this:
“I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love.” Luke 7: 36.47 (Jesus anointed by a sinful woman)

Everyone can lose their ''luster'' if they don't mantain their relationship with Christ, so I agree with you on that.