sex without marriage ?
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S
Yeah, I think he said something stupid in chat, very likely. He said some ludicrous stuff in the chat room last night, to the point that he'd type something while someone was on the mike, and the person on the mike would stop mid-sentence and say, 'Seriously, you're asking that question? How are you not banned yet?'
I wouldn't call him a troll, but he was definitely hoping we'd all tell him what he wanted to hear.
I wouldn't call him a troll, but he was definitely hoping we'd all tell him what he wanted to hear.
I waited to have sex until I got married in my late 20's. My wife waited and she was in her early 20's. Kids were having sex when I was in school, too. Being human is no excuse. We are human, too.
If your fornicate, God can forgive you, of course. But there are consequences. God told David that he had taken away the guilt of his iniquity after his sin with Bathsheba and Uriah. After that, God told him tha the sword would not depart from his house. There were consequences to the sin.
This is written to believers, Emphasis in bold mine.
I Thessalonians 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister. The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
(NIV)
Let's consider this issue. If you have sex, it can produce children. If condoms are 92% effective, there is still that other 8%.
If you kill a baby in the womb, that's murder.
It's unethical for a man to have sex with a woman and get her pregnant and go off and not be responsible for the child.
If you put your child in a situation, willfully, where he or she will not be raised in a two-parent home with married parents, that is unethical.
Therefore it makes perfect sense that people should wait until marriage to have sex. Yes, it's fun and it feels good, but it's not all about fun and feeling good. Sex is designed to produce children.
If you kill a baby in the womb, that's murder.
It's unethical for a man to have sex with a woman and get her pregnant and go off and not be responsible for the child.
If you put your child in a situation, willfully, where he or she will not be raised in a two-parent home with married parents, that is unethical.
Therefore it makes perfect sense that people should wait until marriage to have sex. Yes, it's fun and it feels good, but it's not all about fun and feeling good. Sex is designed to produce children.
...the incident with David and Bathsheba had to do with adultery and causing her husband Uriah to be killed relating to it...
...the strongs word relating to the verse you posted regarding 'sexual immorality' is G4202...it relates to 'harlotry' but also includes incest and idolitary
...going for the ideal of marriage is what should be pursued - where one finds that right person...
...the strongs word relating to the verse you posted regarding 'sexual immorality' is G4202...it relates to 'harlotry' but also includes incest and idolitary
...going for the ideal of marriage is what should be pursued - where one finds that right person...
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I stumbled across this in my travels. This chaps post brings up some interesting points related to fact of word meanings and contexts:
"This is what people generally mean when they talk about fornication. Most people don’t know that “fornication” originally described prostitution: the Latin fornix was a reference to the domed back-alley arches where Roman prostitutes typically plied their trade. A “fornicator” was someone who, in the vernacular, “did it under an arch”.
As it turns out, this usage is a surprisingly accurate translation of the original term, at least as it’s used in the Old Testament. The Old Testament doesn’t actually use any Hebrew word to reference premarital sex itself. It uses “laying with” and “knowing” as euphemisms for the actual act, but it only uses two words that actually denote inherently sinful actions: זָנָה, zanah, meaning “harlotry”, and נָאַף, na’aph, meaning “adultery”. The latter is used exclusively in reference to the breaking of the marriage covenant; the former is used either in reference to prostitution itself or as a slang reference to wanton promiscuity (e.g., “playing the harlot”).
Likewise, the New Testament has two terms. The first is μοιχεύω, moicheuō, paralleling the Old Testament’s na’aph to indicate adultery. But the other one, πορνεία, porneia, is a nonspecific reference to any form of sex-that-is-sinful; it can be used to discuss incest, prostitution, bestiality, and so on. Its nonspecificity means it doesn’t really tell us anything about which things are sinful, only the attitude we should have toward certain types of sin. For definitions, the Old Testament is far more useful.
So where does that leave us? Contrary to the belief exemplified by the quote at the beginning of this post, the Bible never describes the “soul-damning seriousness” of shacking up and having a kid. It’s pretty hard to “speak plainly and biblically” about something the Bible never mentions….unless, of course, you’re merely interested in reinforcing hypocritical stereotypes.
In fact, the entire Old Testament only once describes what can unequivocally be labeled premarital sex (what modern Christians inaccurately refer to as fornication).
Plus, this passage needs to be viewed in its historical context. In this culture, marriageability was the most valuable thing a woman could have. This law provided that if a guy tried to hit-and-split, he could be required to make restitution for the very real disadvantage he had placed the girl in, either monetarily or by marrying the girl. Indeed, all the preceding verses are about restitution for damages done; this passage establishes protection for the woman’s rights in that culture. Obviously, our culture isn’t exactly a parallel here, so these provisions aren’t explicitly applicable.
What’s the conclusion? Waxing eloquent about how soul-damningly sinful a couple must be because they’ve slept together isn’t biblical and it doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s just another way to make an idol out of the Victorian ideal of “modest chastity” American conservatives so vigorously insist upon.
If anything, it shows not only pride, but prurience. This intense, self-aggrandizing, fascinated, scandalized, near-crazed interest in the sexual goings-on of other people has more in common with the Pharisee of Luke 18 (“God, I thank you that I am not like other men: extortioners, unjust, adulterers”) than the tax collector. It’s not their business. It almost seems as though the thought of ferreting out and denouncing sexual sin sates some base concupiscence toward uncovering scandal and lasciviousness.
One final caveat, though: this doesn’t mean premarital sex is a good idea. In fact, I’d argue there’s still a very good rationale for saying it’s quite wrong. But that’s a topic for another post."
Porneia – Part 2: Providential Prurience | Science and Other Drugs
"This is what people generally mean when they talk about fornication. Most people don’t know that “fornication” originally described prostitution: the Latin fornix was a reference to the domed back-alley arches where Roman prostitutes typically plied their trade. A “fornicator” was someone who, in the vernacular, “did it under an arch”.
As it turns out, this usage is a surprisingly accurate translation of the original term, at least as it’s used in the Old Testament. The Old Testament doesn’t actually use any Hebrew word to reference premarital sex itself. It uses “laying with” and “knowing” as euphemisms for the actual act, but it only uses two words that actually denote inherently sinful actions: זָנָה, zanah, meaning “harlotry”, and נָאַף, na’aph, meaning “adultery”. The latter is used exclusively in reference to the breaking of the marriage covenant; the former is used either in reference to prostitution itself or as a slang reference to wanton promiscuity (e.g., “playing the harlot”).
Likewise, the New Testament has two terms. The first is μοιχεύω, moicheuō, paralleling the Old Testament’s na’aph to indicate adultery. But the other one, πορνεία, porneia, is a nonspecific reference to any form of sex-that-is-sinful; it can be used to discuss incest, prostitution, bestiality, and so on. Its nonspecificity means it doesn’t really tell us anything about which things are sinful, only the attitude we should have toward certain types of sin. For definitions, the Old Testament is far more useful.
So where does that leave us? Contrary to the belief exemplified by the quote at the beginning of this post, the Bible never describes the “soul-damning seriousness” of shacking up and having a kid. It’s pretty hard to “speak plainly and biblically” about something the Bible never mentions….unless, of course, you’re merely interested in reinforcing hypocritical stereotypes.
In fact, the entire Old Testament only once describes what can unequivocally be labeled premarital sex (what modern Christians inaccurately refer to as fornication).
“If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.” (Exodus 22:16-17)
If I’m being honest….this seems incredibly underwhelming. For something Catholicism terms a mortal sin and what conservatives decry as the worst things a dating couple can do, premarital sex doesn’t seem as censured in the Old Testament. Where are the stonings? I mean, seriously. If kids are being stoned for a rebellious attitude but “fornication” just means you need to get married….well, sheesh.
Plus, this passage needs to be viewed in its historical context. In this culture, marriageability was the most valuable thing a woman could have. This law provided that if a guy tried to hit-and-split, he could be required to make restitution for the very real disadvantage he had placed the girl in, either monetarily or by marrying the girl. Indeed, all the preceding verses are about restitution for damages done; this passage establishes protection for the woman’s rights in that culture. Obviously, our culture isn’t exactly a parallel here, so these provisions aren’t explicitly applicable.
What’s the conclusion? Waxing eloquent about how soul-damningly sinful a couple must be because they’ve slept together isn’t biblical and it doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s just another way to make an idol out of the Victorian ideal of “modest chastity” American conservatives so vigorously insist upon.
If anything, it shows not only pride, but prurience. This intense, self-aggrandizing, fascinated, scandalized, near-crazed interest in the sexual goings-on of other people has more in common with the Pharisee of Luke 18 (“God, I thank you that I am not like other men: extortioners, unjust, adulterers”) than the tax collector. It’s not their business. It almost seems as though the thought of ferreting out and denouncing sexual sin sates some base concupiscence toward uncovering scandal and lasciviousness.
One final caveat, though: this doesn’t mean premarital sex is a good idea. In fact, I’d argue there’s still a very good rationale for saying it’s quite wrong. But that’s a topic for another post."
Porneia – Part 2: Providential Prurience | Science and Other Drugs
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... I don't entirely agree with the author that those who have this belief are necessarily 'prurient' --- although some may be battling their own sexual battles in an indirect manner, by criticizing others in an effort to 'de-energize' their own tendencies and possible 'guilt'....
...however, I can relate to the feeling of an elevated and sublimated primal element spiritualized and transcendant .... which I believe some must be also feeling and don't want to be dragged into a dichotomy of peace between their spirit and the inability to express their desires in a way that is appropriate...I know and understand that space - quite well, and as I indicated earlier, that place can be quite powerful..., esp. when adhered to in a way that is not self-destructive and repressive, but channelled into a higher place....which can be quite elevating spiritually...
...however, the fact of what is in the bible - is what is in the bible. No-one has the right to change that because it 'seems more religiously correct' to them...This is what the pharasees did, and could not even keep to their own standards themselves, but enforced it on others...Christ rebuked them for that.
...in addition, the bible speaks of not 'adding nor subtracting' to the Word of God..., regardless of how 'more spiritual' it might seem to those convicted of doing so, as was done with 1 John 5:8 in some translations from the footnotes for the friar 'Froy'...(not found in NASB)
...however, I can relate to the feeling of an elevated and sublimated primal element spiritualized and transcendant .... which I believe some must be also feeling and don't want to be dragged into a dichotomy of peace between their spirit and the inability to express their desires in a way that is appropriate...I know and understand that space - quite well, and as I indicated earlier, that place can be quite powerful..., esp. when adhered to in a way that is not self-destructive and repressive, but channelled into a higher place....which can be quite elevating spiritually...
...however, the fact of what is in the bible - is what is in the bible. No-one has the right to change that because it 'seems more religiously correct' to them...This is what the pharasees did, and could not even keep to their own standards themselves, but enforced it on others...Christ rebuked them for that.
...in addition, the bible speaks of not 'adding nor subtracting' to the Word of God..., regardless of how 'more spiritual' it might seem to those convicted of doing so, as was done with 1 John 5:8 in some translations from the footnotes for the friar 'Froy'...(not found in NASB)
...maybe, but 'seems' is not hard fact via the Word. Also keep in mind that the practise of having concubines was prevalent in with the Patriarchs of the OT.
...HOWEVER: that being said --- its impressed upon me very clearly the absolute importance of Christians practising the science of Chastity - which is not about 'sex before marriage' per-se --- although it may include it; but more deeply --- being in control of their primal urges and sexuality --- were need be and as appropriate. This is for a number of reasons:
...the Spiritual integrity that results from being centred and disciplined in ones thinking, emotions and sexuality lends to the Greater Power of God being manifest within a person, where they become more godly and grow in Him; and they are more useful in the kingdom of God and in doing His Will accordingly...
...also, because that which is of darkness can seek the weakest part of a person, and seek to subdue and separate them from God in some manner, or cause a disruption to the works of God in a person or larger collective...Those involved in witchcraft love to have the power to subdue via sexual channels, and then what occurs is entities use this as a doorway into a persons psyche and try to take over the persons will and emotions..., so it is VERY important to be in control -when one needs to be- and not allow such doorways to open...
...the midbrain (part of the brain-stem) is connected via the spinal cord and other pathways to the primal sexual areas, and the midbrain is involved with 'consciousness', hyper-alertness....and arousal - and is related to the spiritual aspects of a person ie:
"Reticular formation: This is a large area in the midbrain that is involved in various important functions of the midbrain. In particular, it contains lower motor neurons, is involved in the pain desensitization pathway, is involved in the arousal and consciousness systems, and contains the locus ceruleus, which is involved in intensive alertness modulation and in autonomic reflexes." Brainstem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...this means, that when the flow of the primal life-force experienced as initially the sexual urge starts to become spiritualized and move upwards as a result of utilizing the correct discipline and will-power, consciousness and awareness expand within the mid-brain of the person, interfacing with the spiritual by opening up a greater means and bridges on sub-spiritual levels for the spirit-soul of a person to access the heavenly realms, via the Spirit of God.
God uses what you do that brings you closer to Him. Whatever brings you closer to God is 'good', whatever leads you away is 'bad'...
...it is imperative for the aspiring Christian who want to be effective in the kingdom of God to practise chastity --- and know how to be disciplined in that regard, which includes mind and emotional control. Some useful tools and aids I briefly mentioned in the 'outside the square' thread, but there are more...Keep in mind this is all done with the attitude of being in the Spirit of God...God makes up for what people lack when there is enough faith --- but not many even have that. And then after that point, there must be growth, and this is one way primary way of achieving and growing further in it, and one way or another, it is practised directly or indirectly --- by the need for greater spiritual integrity, although many don't understand the science of it...
...although I am not advocating a 'life of celibacy', I think it would be a good idea for serious and discerning Christians to undergo a time of rigorous disciplined training as per suggested and be celibate for at least a year or two while doing so, learning how to control and channel their urges in a more spiritual direction being focused in their spirit and consciousness centers --- in Gods Spirit...via Christ...When married, there are other sciences which can be practised which I wont go into, that are equally as effective...
...one must be able to steer the mind-direction, emotions and sexual energies like a car...total control, total ability to choose and move along a chosen path and direction...in service to the Most High, and in becoming in His Image...., to be 'more than human'...
One of the worst things is smutty, undisciplined grotty sexuality --- which is not anywhere near as fulfilling nor desirable , as when one is in total control and can 'choose' the most appropriate time and place and person to become one with in this regard --- which is quite mindblowing: a true oneness in God which is marriage being the ideal to strive towards... This is on a totally different level and related to the mysteries of marriage as discussed in the bible...
...
...HOWEVER: that being said --- its impressed upon me very clearly the absolute importance of Christians practising the science of Chastity - which is not about 'sex before marriage' per-se --- although it may include it; but more deeply --- being in control of their primal urges and sexuality --- were need be and as appropriate. This is for a number of reasons:
...the Spiritual integrity that results from being centred and disciplined in ones thinking, emotions and sexuality lends to the Greater Power of God being manifest within a person, where they become more godly and grow in Him; and they are more useful in the kingdom of God and in doing His Will accordingly...
...also, because that which is of darkness can seek the weakest part of a person, and seek to subdue and separate them from God in some manner, or cause a disruption to the works of God in a person or larger collective...Those involved in witchcraft love to have the power to subdue via sexual channels, and then what occurs is entities use this as a doorway into a persons psyche and try to take over the persons will and emotions..., so it is VERY important to be in control -when one needs to be- and not allow such doorways to open...
...the midbrain (part of the brain-stem) is connected via the spinal cord and other pathways to the primal sexual areas, and the midbrain is involved with 'consciousness', hyper-alertness....and arousal - and is related to the spiritual aspects of a person ie:
"Reticular formation: This is a large area in the midbrain that is involved in various important functions of the midbrain. In particular, it contains lower motor neurons, is involved in the pain desensitization pathway, is involved in the arousal and consciousness systems, and contains the locus ceruleus, which is involved in intensive alertness modulation and in autonomic reflexes." Brainstem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...this means, that when the flow of the primal life-force experienced as initially the sexual urge starts to become spiritualized and move upwards as a result of utilizing the correct discipline and will-power, consciousness and awareness expand within the mid-brain of the person, interfacing with the spiritual by opening up a greater means and bridges on sub-spiritual levels for the spirit-soul of a person to access the heavenly realms, via the Spirit of God.
God uses what you do that brings you closer to Him. Whatever brings you closer to God is 'good', whatever leads you away is 'bad'...
...it is imperative for the aspiring Christian who want to be effective in the kingdom of God to practise chastity --- and know how to be disciplined in that regard, which includes mind and emotional control. Some useful tools and aids I briefly mentioned in the 'outside the square' thread, but there are more...Keep in mind this is all done with the attitude of being in the Spirit of God...God makes up for what people lack when there is enough faith --- but not many even have that. And then after that point, there must be growth, and this is one way primary way of achieving and growing further in it, and one way or another, it is practised directly or indirectly --- by the need for greater spiritual integrity, although many don't understand the science of it...
...although I am not advocating a 'life of celibacy', I think it would be a good idea for serious and discerning Christians to undergo a time of rigorous disciplined training as per suggested and be celibate for at least a year or two while doing so, learning how to control and channel their urges in a more spiritual direction being focused in their spirit and consciousness centers --- in Gods Spirit...via Christ...When married, there are other sciences which can be practised which I wont go into, that are equally as effective...
...one must be able to steer the mind-direction, emotions and sexual energies like a car...total control, total ability to choose and move along a chosen path and direction...in service to the Most High, and in becoming in His Image...., to be 'more than human'...
One of the worst things is smutty, undisciplined grotty sexuality --- which is not anywhere near as fulfilling nor desirable , as when one is in total control and can 'choose' the most appropriate time and place and person to become one with in this regard --- which is quite mindblowing: a true oneness in God which is marriage being the ideal to strive towards... This is on a totally different level and related to the mysteries of marriage as discussed in the bible...
...
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...in addition to the above post; one of the main reasons men lose their 'intuitive abilities' is because of the constant loss of their sexual fluids, for whatever reason..., which is like the acid in a car battery being drained from it..., as the consciousness in their brain stem drains in like manner --- and the body degenerates faster...
...if and when men were to practise certain disciplines to prevent that occurring, they would find that their spiritual intuition and 'inner sight' would dramatically improve..., as well as their health and vitality...
...this does not mean abstinence from engaging in acts of intimacy, just knowing the science of how to do this, and using ones will-power as well...and how to do it - is vitally important; however a period of one to two years of intense training being celibate in the right way via the Spirit of God (imperative) would do anyone wonders - now and then - ....
...if and when men were to practise certain disciplines to prevent that occurring, they would find that their spiritual intuition and 'inner sight' would dramatically improve..., as well as their health and vitality...
...this does not mean abstinence from engaging in acts of intimacy, just knowing the science of how to do this, and using ones will-power as well...and how to do it - is vitally important; however a period of one to two years of intense training being celibate in the right way via the Spirit of God (imperative) would do anyone wonders - now and then - ....
D
First of all, this whole special oneness idea doesn't jibe with the several ones men had as wives in the Old Testament and the many marriages that don't work. Secondly, I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of people throwing stones that did not wait for marriage or aren't as squeaky clean as they pretend to be.
Waiting is tough. And I'm not saying one shouldn't. But the attacks and hypocrisy don't help. I just wish there was a way to validate those who wait until they're married without masturbating or having sex. But that's not really an important point. However, I suspect those who throw the most stones are those who do one or both (sex before marriage or masturbation), chalk it up as a mistake, wallow in guilt, ask for forgiveness and attack others for doing the same.
My daughter turned 13 earlier this year. I found a note confessing guilt about masturbation. I realize most fine, upstanding Christian parents would scold the child, warn her about eternal damnation and tell her she needs to pray the desire away. Unfortunately, being a poor example of a Christian dad, I decided to talk to her about it. I wanted to let her know that she's going through some changes, that I was there to listen, that God still loved her and His love would see her through this difficult challenge.
Waiting is tough. And I'm not saying one shouldn't. But the attacks and hypocrisy don't help. I just wish there was a way to validate those who wait until they're married without masturbating or having sex. But that's not really an important point. However, I suspect those who throw the most stones are those who do one or both (sex before marriage or masturbation), chalk it up as a mistake, wallow in guilt, ask for forgiveness and attack others for doing the same.
My daughter turned 13 earlier this year. I found a note confessing guilt about masturbation. I realize most fine, upstanding Christian parents would scold the child, warn her about eternal damnation and tell her she needs to pray the desire away. Unfortunately, being a poor example of a Christian dad, I decided to talk to her about it. I wanted to let her know that she's going through some changes, that I was there to listen, that God still loved her and His love would see her through this difficult challenge.
The Septuigint (LXX) is the Greek translation that was in use in the first century. It is quoted in the New Testament and heavily influenced the religious Greek of that day, which is something we should keep in mind when reading the New Testament.
In Deuteronomy 22:21, why is the girl stoned? For playing the harlot: ἐκπορνεῦσαι in her father's house. This is the type of thing we need to consider when we consider the meaning of πορνεία , porneia, harlotry, playing the harlot, in the New Testament.
If a virgin can fornication, commit porneia, and play the harlot, why would porneia only refer to actually paying money to sleep with a prostitute? There is no mention of the girl losing her virginity for the sake of money in this passage in Deuteronomy. The law applies whether she got paid or not.
If Paul was warning the Thessalonians not to fornicate and defraud their brothers, why would he say that if he had fornication in mind? How many fellow believers were prostitutes? Who were they defrauding? If they are taking the virginity of men's future brides, or from the brides themselves, believers who fell into sin, the passage makes sense.
I can't really comment on whether spiritual forces interface particularly well with the midbraid. I can't find that that in the Bible, and I am pretty sure reputable scientific journals won't talk about that either if you are into science. But I can think of another reason not to fornicate. God is the avenger of those who do such things. That's a good enough reason for me.
I guess if you get married at two years old, two years of celibacy would be enough. But it would pretty bad for a two year old to get married, but that's another issue. Christians need to be celibate until marriage and after married if their spouse dies, until they remarry, if they do.
In Deuteronomy 22:21, why is the girl stoned? For playing the harlot: ἐκπορνεῦσαι in her father's house. This is the type of thing we need to consider when we consider the meaning of πορνεία , porneia, harlotry, playing the harlot, in the New Testament.
If a virgin can fornication, commit porneia, and play the harlot, why would porneia only refer to actually paying money to sleep with a prostitute? There is no mention of the girl losing her virginity for the sake of money in this passage in Deuteronomy. The law applies whether she got paid or not.
If Paul was warning the Thessalonians not to fornicate and defraud their brothers, why would he say that if he had fornication in mind? How many fellow believers were prostitutes? Who were they defrauding? If they are taking the virginity of men's future brides, or from the brides themselves, believers who fell into sin, the passage makes sense.
I can't really comment on whether spiritual forces interface particularly well with the midbraid. I can't find that that in the Bible, and I am pretty sure reputable scientific journals won't talk about that either if you are into science. But I can think of another reason not to fornicate. God is the avenger of those who do such things. That's a good enough reason for me.
I guess if you get married at two years old, two years of celibacy would be enough. But it would pretty bad for a two year old to get married, but that's another issue. Christians need to be celibate until marriage and after married if their spouse dies, until they remarry, if they do.
My point is that even though God had removed the guilt of David's iniquity, there were still consequences to his sin. It is not as though God erased the consequences because he was forgiven. I Thessalonians tells us that God avenges defrauding one's brother through fornication.
...the strongs word relating to the verse you posted regarding 'sexual immorality' is G4202...it relates to 'harlotry' but also includes incest and idolitary
...going for the ideal of marriage is what should be pursued - where one finds that right person...[/QUOTE]
...the strongs word relating to the verse you posted regarding 'sexual immorality' is G4202...it relates to 'harlotry' but also includes incest and idolitary
...going for the ideal of marriage is what should be pursued - where one finds that right person...[/QUOTE]
The Septuagint is an inferior translation of the Hebrew with significant loss in context and some words. It was considered in those days akin to some of the inferior meaning for word translated bibles, rather than the truer 'word for word' versions.
Going back to the issue of 'porneia'..., to see the context in its entirety, consider the fact that 'most' of Israel practised polygamy and were even blessed by God in doing so, who even said of David, 'if he wanted more, He would have given him more' with regards to Bathsheba and adultery...ie:
2Sa 12:7 Nathan then said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul.
2Sa 12:8 'I also gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah;and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!
2Sa 12:9 'Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
Gideon was also blessed with many wives and children.
In addition, ... this is the interesting part --- they were also allowed to have 'concubines' and there were special laws regarding concubines, their rights and how to treat them...A concubine is a permanent mistress that is unmarried but part of the family as a concubine...
Definition of CONCUBINE
: a woman with whom a man cohabits without being married: as
a : one having a recognized social status in a household below that of a wife
b : mistress 4a
...so this definition give a very interesting perspective on how things were in the Old Testament lifestyle..., and what was regarded as 'sinful' in the bible, although the concubines were expected to be looked after as per the bible instructions were..., and be regarded as 'secondary wives'..., and God by bible indications expected them to be properly regarded and looked after none-the-less, even tho they were not a marriage as such, they were a 'union' that was more than just ordinary, just not a true marriage...
...so in context, one cannot start to split hairs and make something out of nothing ... because it seems more correct in ones thinking that it 'should be' that way...The bible says what it says, and the correct context historically and in written text must be seen as a harmonious whole, otherwise the Patriarchs of the bible would have been guilty of unrepentant sin and some prophets were sons of plural marriages ie: Samuel etc..., and probably had more wives as well...
...I believe 'chastity' is what is important, and control and making the right and best choices..., and the ability to subsequently live a more fulfilled life - in a correct but unoppressed manner --- more-so than splitting hairs about technical points that don't actually exist, but are 'read into'....
...in ADDITION --- it should be noted that much of the pseudo-puritanism came from some of the gnostic sects, who believe that sex was evil and had to do with the fall of man, or more correctly, mans spirit being degraded and 'trapped' in a physical body...They despised people that had children, and avoided it, saying that it was 'trapping a spirit' into a body, and avoided marriage (Paul spoke of them) ...and they actually believed that the God of the Old Testament was 'the devil' who caused spirits to be trapped in bodies and be subject to pain and sorrow and limitation..., and that Christ had a 'different Father' and was the 'liberator' according to them 'from the bondage of being entrapped in a material body' and spoke of celibacy, even tho some of them were even 'gay' and some practised 'ritual suicide' to be 'freed from the material world' and go 'back into the spirit realm'..., however the bible mentions that 'those that forbid to marry practise the doctrine of demons'...ie:
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1Ti 4:3men who forbid marriage..."
...this is what God said to Adam and Eve 'before' the fall ie:
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth"
...nothing there about sex being 'evil' and bringing about the 'fall of woman/man'
...and the fact that 'sex' was more than just about 'bringing forth children' ie:
Pro 5:18 Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife of your youth.
Pro 5:19 As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love.
...one has to see the whole context and not read into things - chastity was of the greatest importance, and being correct as was expected in the relationships one had..., with regards to the context of the Old Testament lifestyle...
Going back to the issue of 'porneia'..., to see the context in its entirety, consider the fact that 'most' of Israel practised polygamy and were even blessed by God in doing so, who even said of David, 'if he wanted more, He would have given him more' with regards to Bathsheba and adultery...ie:
2Sa 12:7 Nathan then said to David, "You are the man! Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'It is I who anointed you king over Israel and it is I who delivered you from the hand of Saul.
2Sa 12:8 'I also gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah;and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!
2Sa 12:9 'Why have you despised the word of the LORD by doing evil in His sight? You have struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword, have taken his wife to be your wife, and have killed him with the sword of the sons of Ammon.
Gideon was also blessed with many wives and children.
In addition, ... this is the interesting part --- they were also allowed to have 'concubines' and there were special laws regarding concubines, their rights and how to treat them...A concubine is a permanent mistress that is unmarried but part of the family as a concubine...
Definition of CONCUBINE
: a woman with whom a man cohabits without being married: as
a : one having a recognized social status in a household below that of a wife
b : mistress 4a
...so this definition give a very interesting perspective on how things were in the Old Testament lifestyle..., and what was regarded as 'sinful' in the bible, although the concubines were expected to be looked after as per the bible instructions were..., and be regarded as 'secondary wives'..., and God by bible indications expected them to be properly regarded and looked after none-the-less, even tho they were not a marriage as such, they were a 'union' that was more than just ordinary, just not a true marriage...
...so in context, one cannot start to split hairs and make something out of nothing ... because it seems more correct in ones thinking that it 'should be' that way...The bible says what it says, and the correct context historically and in written text must be seen as a harmonious whole, otherwise the Patriarchs of the bible would have been guilty of unrepentant sin and some prophets were sons of plural marriages ie: Samuel etc..., and probably had more wives as well...
...I believe 'chastity' is what is important, and control and making the right and best choices..., and the ability to subsequently live a more fulfilled life - in a correct but unoppressed manner --- more-so than splitting hairs about technical points that don't actually exist, but are 'read into'....
...in ADDITION --- it should be noted that much of the pseudo-puritanism came from some of the gnostic sects, who believe that sex was evil and had to do with the fall of man, or more correctly, mans spirit being degraded and 'trapped' in a physical body...They despised people that had children, and avoided it, saying that it was 'trapping a spirit' into a body, and avoided marriage (Paul spoke of them) ...and they actually believed that the God of the Old Testament was 'the devil' who caused spirits to be trapped in bodies and be subject to pain and sorrow and limitation..., and that Christ had a 'different Father' and was the 'liberator' according to them 'from the bondage of being entrapped in a material body' and spoke of celibacy, even tho some of them were even 'gay' and some practised 'ritual suicide' to be 'freed from the material world' and go 'back into the spirit realm'..., however the bible mentions that 'those that forbid to marry practise the doctrine of demons'...ie:
1Ti 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1Ti 4:3men who forbid marriage..."
...this is what God said to Adam and Eve 'before' the fall ie:
Gen 1:27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth"
...nothing there about sex being 'evil' and bringing about the 'fall of woman/man'
...and the fact that 'sex' was more than just about 'bringing forth children' ie:
Pro 5:18 Let your fountain be blessed, And rejoice in the wife of your youth.
Pro 5:19 As a loving hind and a graceful doe, Let her breasts satisfy you at all times; Be exhilarated always with her love.
...one has to see the whole context and not read into things - chastity was of the greatest importance, and being correct as was expected in the relationships one had..., with regards to the context of the Old Testament lifestyle...
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Tigerscent
From what I've read, Hebrew concubines were wives, wives that were slaves beforehand, but wives none-the-less. They were not unmarried mistresses. The issue was whether their status was slave or free before marriage. Or so I've read. It makes sense, too. Keturah is referred to as both Abraham's wife and Abraham's concubine.
Premarital sex is another issue.
From what I've read, Hebrew concubines were wives, wives that were slaves beforehand, but wives none-the-less. They were not unmarried mistresses. The issue was whether their status was slave or free before marriage. Or so I've read. It makes sense, too. Keturah is referred to as both Abraham's wife and Abraham's concubine.
Premarital sex is another issue.