Catholicism

[17Bees]

There is value in works in regards to rewards (Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) not in regards to meriting eternal life. Big difference! Yet Roman Catholics believe that salvation is received based on the merits of good works and Catholics also believe that James teaches we are saved by works, yet James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim/where is the proof?). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It's far removed because the value that Roman Catholics teach which increases is [righteousness] received which they teach is "preserved and also increased before God through good works." To the contrary, we read in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Yet Catholics go beyond fruits merely being the proof of faith and teach that these fruits are also the means of their salvation. In regards to fruits as proof of genuine faith, In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence/fruits) if we keep His commandments. *BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time as sinless perfectionists teach. Also, those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin and love their brother (1 John 3:9-10; 4:7). Love being the first and foremost fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).

For Protestants, it's not a matter of picking which sacraments you like and believe that save you, as it is with Catholics.

Well, I think I'm saved by the mercy of God and I've had this same conversation about a thousand times here and back and forth rebuttals and we all go home with our own contextual interpretations. It's futile because people believe what they're going to believe and I hate gumming up a teen forum of all things.

I believe I'm saved by grace. That my own personal bottom line. The things I do with that faith - my works - make me grow in faith and so it's a kind of circular, sustainable life God's given me. The Catholic doctrines sometimes provide me with tools to help me along. BTW, I'm real aware of how people at cc (especially in bdf) feel about Catholics so I appreciate Mailmandan's mature, nonjudgemental remarks.

 

[FranC]

Hi Fran, The word says that God has gifted us with apostle, prophet evangelist pastor and teacher. These giftings come from the eldership. I'm not sure if theologians fit under the eldership?

Maybe they do. I'm just not sure on that. But I agree we need all of the leadership gifts because God gave them to us for a purpose. And I thank God for them. And we need all the other gifts that Paul spoke of all well.

We need to see ourselves as a whole. No one is elevated above another. Because one is gifted as helper for instance, we're to see him in a lower light that the pastor. We are all gifted from the same God and we need to love and appreciate each other without favoritism.

But we also have to remember that there are false brothers and false churches that set themselves up as being Christian. And they're not. We're told to discern and avoid those who are false.

Even theologians that may have great wisdom could be teaching heresy. So we need to discern if they're really teaching the word of God or not. Because they have a name of pastor, pope, theologian, elders whatever doesn't automatically make them a person sent by God. They could be a wolf in sheep's clothing. So checking commentaries aren't always safe without discernment. You could read 10 of them and each one might give you a different answer.

So really, the bottom line of defense is ourselves as we read and interpret scripture. Since I've been doing serious study of God's word recently, I'm learning how to study and it's been enlightening and beneficial. I'm understanding things I've never understood before. And there's not a pastor or theologian among us. Just women praying and seeking God's word and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us.

And consider also that the early church had the Old Testament only. And they didn't have seminaries at the time or theologians. They had Holy Spirit filled leaders that spent time with Jesus.

You're answering for Utah? Ok. It's an open thread.
First of all, a theologian could also be a pastor. But a pastor is not a theologian. He's a pastor.
The Apostles were theologians because they KNEW GOD IN PERSON and learned the things of God from HIM. Those that came after the Apostles and were taught by the Apostles were also theologians. Here are some names:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Church_Fathers

Check it out. It's in alphabetical order and there are too many to list here.

Who do you think passed down Christianity? If it was up to the persons who joined together for worship, it would have quickly faded. Did you ever try to have a bible study in your home? Did it work? No. Because we don't know enough.
It won't really work unless the person doing the teaching is a scholar and a good teacher. Think about it.

Elders do not fit under theologian. Elders are the elders in church who are supposed to know more than the young Christians and should guide them along. Every one you listed has a special gift from God, but they are not all theologians. Please find out the difference - it's so important if we're to trust the bible and it's interpretation.

This does not mean that they are elevated above us. Being elevated is a matter of the soul and the spirit - we are all the same under God. But on a human level, I DO have to admit that there are those that know much much more than I ever will. Would you agree to this?

I also agree that we are to love each other. But I sure don't see this on these threads. It's very bothersome to me that Catholics are so looked down upon when they're our brothers in Christ. Not every Catholic is born again, and NOT EVERY PROTESTANT is born again. Would you agree to this?

I agree with you about false teachers and false religions. The N.T. warns us in many verses about this. This is why it's good to know the word of God and we could be happy that we're much more into this than Catholics are. Discernment is of great importance - even if we don't agree on everything, we should agree on the basic tenets of Christianity.

What I'm saying is that the RCC DOES teach the basic tenets of Christianity. If they disagree on something, that does not make then a false church. I don't agree with every Protestant church and neither do many theologians. Does that make them false? A church could be a false teacher in big concepts that destroy the tenets of Christianity. I don't see really big ones in the RCC. It's just that many here don't know what they really teach and what Catholics THINK they are taught.

Look what you say:

Since I've been doing serious study of God's word recently, I'm learning how to study and it's been enlightening and beneficial. I'm understanding things I've never understood before.

And there are many MORE things to know!!

Also, the early church did have the N.T., as a matte of fact. They didn't have it all put together in one book, but they had the letters and the gospels that were written and later assembled together, and they had many more than were even put into the N.T. (in the 300's). So, in that sense, the early Christians were taught using the letters that were sent to their elders and disbursed as much as possible.

Seminaries? Sure they had "seminaries" !! Did not the elders teach the younger??
LOL

All I'm saying is that we could disagree, but we should do it with love.

 

[FranC]

Hi Fran,

God meant for those who are born-again and have the Spirit living within to be at unity. Not an organization.

If you do some research on the early church, there were believers without the catholic church. We didn't need the catholic church at all. We already had a universal church.

If anything, the catholic church did more harm than good. Just read its history. And there were councils before the 4th century. If fact there was one in Jerusalem soon after the birth of the church.

Believers can do quite fine without institution and without tradition. The birth of the church shows us that. They met in homes and in the open air.

But I agree that the description of the birth of the RCC was a little coarse.

I have a couple of friends that were catholic. They could never go back. They even said they aren't true Christians unless by accident. One of them was so devoted to the catholic church, but when she got saved outside of it she left. They never told her about being born again. Not once.

Hi again Desertsrose,
Sorry this took so long.

I agree with a lot of what you say.
The Catholic church did harm. I agree. I also know that the Protestant church did harm.
All men sin. And will continue to do so.

I'm sure you know that the Catholic church just meant the Universal church. There was no other church back after Jesus died so it was first called The Way (Acts 9:2) then it was called Christianity (Acts 11.26b) and eventually so many became Christian all over that part of the world that it became known as the Universal (or Catholic) Church.

But there was always a church. I do disagree that it could have lasted without its becoming an institution. I'm sorry to have to say this but man does need something to glue together what he believes. This is why there are clubs, of whatever type.

Jesus did intend to establish a church.
Mathew 16:18

We could discuss whether He meant Peter to be a Pope (i don't think so, only an elder), however, jesus DID tell Peter that he would be the head of HIS CHURCH. That cannot be denied.

What if you stopped putting up decorations at Christmas and stopped inviting family or friends over for dinner, what would happen? Eventually the tradition of Christmas would die. Man is very much a creature of habit and tradition.

 

[FranC]

Yes, the apostles were given authority and responsibility to teach, rebuke, exhort and train in righteousness. So when church discipline comes into play which we sorely don't apply anymore, within the context of the whole church they were to forgive sins when the person repents.

We see an example of this in 1 Corinthian 5 where the people gave forgiveness of sin when they should not have.

So Paul tells them this person needs to repent of his sin and if not he's to be expelled from the church out of love for his soul that he might repent.

Paul is telling them to hold back on the forgiveness until this person asks for forgiveness with the fruit of repentance.

The apostles don't have this ability to forgive sin in a vacuum. They themselves are to be help to the fire themselves if they sin. Paul rebuked Peter for his sin in front of a crowd because at one point he was being influenced by Judiazers.

And also, I'm able to forgive sin when someone sins against me. I don't need a leader of the church to do so. The leaders were to equip the saints for the work of ministry. That means that they instruct and teach when it's proper to forgive and not forgive like in the example above.

We're all a body working together for the will of God and to love one another and go out and save others and bring them into the kingdom.

The leaders of the church are not the type of leaders we see in the world where they Lord it over one another. We are all to submit to one another in brotherly love and not think of ourselves as better or higher than the other. We all use our giftings as a whole to build up the church and to edify the church.

I'm sorry Desertsrose,
The above is not a correct interpreetation of 1 Corinthians 5 and it's a lot to get into. It's about not having immoral persons in the church.

When someone sins against YOU, YOU forigive them.
We're talking about when someone sins agains God.
i never hear a good explanation of John 20:22-23

I don't believe priests see themselves as lording it over people. Maybe many years ago they did.
I'm pretty sure they feel sorry that here has to be so much sin and that so much grief is caused by it.
They hear all kinds of stories.

i believe God forgives sin and Jesus is our intermediary.

 

[FranC]

There is value in works in regards to rewards (Matthew 16:27; 1 Corinthians 3:13-15) not in regards to meriting eternal life. Big difference! Yet Roman Catholics believe that salvation is received based on the merits of good works and Catholics also believe that James teaches we are saved by works, yet James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim/where is the proof?). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It's far removed because the value that Roman Catholics teach which increases is [righteousness] received which they teach is "preserved and also increased before God through good works." To the contrary, we read in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Yet Catholics go beyond fruits merely being the proof of faith and teach that these fruits are also the means of their salvation. In regards to fruits as proof of genuine faith, In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence/fruits) if we keep His commandments. *BTY the Greek word for "keep" is "tereo" which means to keep, to guard, to watch over, preserve. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience to all of His commandments 100% of the time as sinless perfectionists teach. Also, those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin and love their brother (1 John 3:9-10; 4:7). Love being the first and foremost fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22).

For Protestants, it's not a matter of picking which sacraments you like and believe that save you, as it is with Catholics.

You know MMD
I've gone through this with you before.
You seem to know a lot more about Catholicism that the Catholic Church knows.

Once again:

The catholic church believes WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.
Ephesians 2:8

James is saying that we are saved by FAITH, but that faith LEADS TO WORKS.
Faith, without works is DEAD. It is of NO VALUE. What good is having faith if I act just like everyone else and do nothing to help my fellow humans? Are we not the hands and feet of God? Or do we expect HIM to come down here and do everything for us?

James is NOT talking about an empty profession of faith. He's talking about faith, as YOU understand it.

You state that in James 2:14 the person SAYS = CLAIMS that he has faith.
So when YOU "say" you have faith, you are only claiming to have it?
So what is the correct expression to "say" that I have faith?
Things are becoming sillier and sillier.

You speak of "rewards". What is the reward? Is it not heaven?
Mathew 25:34-46
Jesus will come to judge all nations. He will put the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.
Mathew 25:33

To those who did well, He will say to come because they are blessed by the Father and they will inherit the reward, which is heaven
Mathew 25:34

And to those on His left, who did nothing for their brother and thusly also nothing for Jesus, He will tell them to go to eternal punishment.
Mathew 25:46

We should not downplay works, since Jesus said many times that we are to work here on earth to promote His Kingdom.
John 14:15
John 14:21
John 15:14
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

We are exhorted throughout the entire N.T. to keep the commandments. Why give new Christians the idea that it is not necessary to do so? What advantage to the Kingdom of God?

So yes, these "fruits" are also the means to our salvation.

Romans 11:21-22
"For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.
Behold then the kindness and severity of God, to those who fell, severity, but to you God's kindness,
IF YOU CONTINUE in His kindness, otherwise YOU ALSO will be CUT OFF."
NASB

Catholics DO NOT believe in sinless perfection as you insinuate.

Also, sacraments do not save, they impart grace.

You may agree with this or not, but you should state what the RCC teaches, not what you believe it teaches.

 

[FranC]

Well, I think I'm saved by the mercy of God and I've had this same conversation about a thousand times here and back and forth rebuttals and we all go home with our own contextual interpretations. It's futile because people believe what they're going to believe and I hate gumming up a teen forum of all things.

I believe I'm saved by grace. That my own personal bottom line. The things I do with that faith - my works - make me grow in faith and so it's a kind of circular, sustainable life God's given me. The Catholic doctrines sometimes provide me with tools to help me along. BTW, I'm real aware of how people at cc (especially in bdf) feel about Catholics so I appreciate Mailmandan's mature, nonjudgemental remarks.

Hi 17bees,

I also appreciate MMD's nice demeanor.

That doesn't make him any less wrong in presenting what the RCC teaches.
This is why so many dislike it - its teachings are not properly represented in these forums.

I believe that it's a good idea that this is in the teen forum. Are there not any teen Catholics that could use some encouragement?

And as to your works furthering your faith and grace, this is also very true.

Others love Justification but do not like to talk about Sanctification -- which in the RCC is known as initial justification and
progressive justification.

It would do us all good to know the difference.

 

[AllenW]

Fran if someone comes to the person who believes that they must confess to a priest to be forgiven that sin and they are told that No if you believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ and aknowledge your sin to God then you shall be saved... Then from that moment on they have been told the truth and if they continue to go to a priest to confess their sins and thus make a public show of support for a false relgion then they have rejected the Word of God that was clearly given to them and they shall not have eternal life with God...

One cannot plead ignorance if one has been told the truth...

That's not true.
Your judgment of a person's intelligence based on your own intelligence is false.
I know people who can recite the roman road to salvation, and one hour later will forget what it says and what it means until you tell them again.
God knows your heart regardless of what comes out of your mouth.

 

[PrynceNY]

Well, I think I'm saved by the mercy of God and I've had this same conversation about a thousand times here and back and forth rebuttals and we all go home with our own contextual interpretations. It's futile because people believe what they're going to believe and I hate gumming up a teen forum of all things. I believe I'm saved by grace. That my own personal bottom line. The things I do with that faith - my works - make me grow in faith and so it's a kind of circular, sustainable life God's given me. The Catholic doctrines sometimes provide me with tools to help me along. BTW, I'm real aware of how people at cc (especially in bdf) feel about Catholics so I appreciate Mailmandan's mature, nonjudgemental remarks.

Yes you are saved by grace. Go to God directly forgiveness, no priest is necessary.

 

[AllenW]

Catholics..really come on now..

This is meaningless.
What is in your heart is what is important, not man made rules.
My mother was a devout roman catholic for 66 years.
During that time, she told me she prayed 18 years for my salvation, and then I got saved.
We rejoiced together and she had a salvation experience and got baptized as well.
# wonderful years in a born again protestant church praising God.
Then while lying in a hospital bed ready to die, my sister chose to do a hail mary rosary beads thing and my mother let her do it.
When she was done, my mother smiled and then died.
Can anyone really believe she died an unsaved catholic?

 

[PrynceNY]

This is meaningless. What is in your heart is what is important, not man made rules. My mother was a devout roman catholic for 66 years. During that time, she told me she prayed 18 years for my salvation, and then I got saved. We rejoiced together and she had a salvation experience and got baptized as well. # wonderful years in a born again protestant church praising God. Then while lying in a hospital bed ready to die, my sister chose to do a hail mary rosary beads thing and my mother let her do it. When she was done, my mother smiled and then died. Can anyone really believe she died an unsaved catholic?

Sorry to hear for your mother. I hope for her sake she got on her knees before God & asked for forgiveness & not rely on some priest.

 

[AllenW]

"The authority to forgive sins" -- what a load of crap.

God forgives, end of story.

What language.
Who could believe anything you say.

 

[MultilingualMessenger]

"The authority to forgive sins" -- what a load of crap.

God forgives, end of story.

That, and also people forgive other people. ("Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.")

Okay, now end of story.

 

[PrynceNY]

The scriptures says nothing about praying hail marys or using rosary beads those are false doctrines. This is how we are to pray "Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come.Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" There is only one "Father" and he's in heaven.

 

[AllenW]

I have the Word of God which I just shared. But carry on, sunshine. I enjoy being persecuted for righteousness' sake. It makes my day more than you could ever imagine.

Can you talk politely to people, with respect?
It's the Christian thing to do.
You seem to have of good to say but it's hard to see through the maze.

 

[Utah]

You're answering for Utah? Ok. It's an open thread.
First of all, a theologian could also be a pastor. But a pastor is not a theologian. He's a pastor.

No one has to answer for me. Struck a bad chord with you Fran? Don't take it personally. I speak from personal experience as to how much spiritual and emotional damage the Catholic Church has inflicted upon the masses.

I've ministered to thousands of Catholics who hate God, fear death and live in perpetual fear because of what they were taught by their priests. These people don't feel the way they do because they were taught love, grace and mercy in church, they feel this way because they were systemically overloaded with guilt, punishment, condemnation and damnation.

You can't argue with me about what I see every day regarding my Catholic patients. Thankfully some of them can be reached regarding God's love and grace, but very sadly some are so far detached from God they're unable to embrace the Truth. I pray God is merciful. And for the record, everyone with an opinion of God is a theologian.

 

[AllenW]

I appreciate the sincerity on "bible only" folks. but we were not intended to interpret scripture by ourselves. The bible was complied by Orthodox bishops aka the Catholic Church and it was intended for us via the church. all this "bible only" nonsense has led to a massive division in the protestant world who can't seem to get the bible right. Why is there only one Catholic Church yet numerous protestant churches?

Demeaning protestant churches is not the best way to support the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Utah]

Can you talk politely to people, with respect?
It's the Christian thing to do.
You seem to have of good to say but it's hard to see through the maze.

I'm polite when possible and firm when necessary. That too is the Christian thing to do. Just like Jesus.

 

[AllenW]

Were they pedophiles back then also or is that just a post 19th Century enigma?

This is no longer a civilized discussion.

 

[FranC]

Sorry to hear for your mother. I hope for her sake she got on her knees before God & asked for forgiveness & not rely on some priest.

This took some nerve on your part.
Is that anything to say to anyone.

What do you mean "some priest"?
Priests give up their life and a family to do what they do. Would you be willing to do the same for your love for God?

And if one doesn't follow your recipe for salvation, then you count them as lost?
Did YOU write the N.T.?
Were YOU with Jesus for 3 1/2 years?

Do you suppose it's your DOCTRINE that saves you, or Jesus?

If you think it's your doctrine, as it seems from your posts, then you better make REAL SURE you're following the correct doctrine or you're lost !!

If you follow the Law, you will be judged by the Law, thus
If you follow doctrine, you will be judged by your doctrine.

Seems right.

 

[Utah]

That, and also people forgive other people. ("Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.")

Okay, now end of story.

Apples and oranges. People forgive because it's Christ-like; priests "forgive" because apparently peoples' salvation hang in the balance. Thankfully the latter is not true.