Catholicism

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

Jesus was perfect and honored His mother as only He could. He did not dishonor her at all. That would have been breaking one of the commandments - and Jesus broke NONE fo the commandments.

He grew strong in spririt
Luke 1:80

Honor thy mother and they father.

How did Jesus teach against it?

She asked Him to turn water into wine at Cana, and He did as He was asked, even though it was not His time.
John 2

And He grew in Spirit
Luke 1:80

PrynceNY · Apr 13, 2017

FranC said:

Many here are legalists and don't even know it. A legalist is like a Pharisee. They believed they had to follow rules and regulations to please God. You know, getting saved just the right way, saying just the right prayers, worshipping just so, etc. Someone who is NOT a legalist believes that JESUS is to be followed. HOW doesn't really matter as long as they're doing their best and as long as they're following the two Great Commandments which cover all the other commandments. Someone who says a person should not say the rosary is being a legalist. Someone who understands that there's no harm is saying it and all Glory goes to God is a truly freed person. BTW, the rosary was invented because people did not read or write and it tells the story of Christ. His Birth & Presentation at the Temple His Baptism, First Miracles, His Kingdom, The Transfiguration and the Eucharist His Passion and Death His Resurrection, Ascension, the Descent of the Holy Spirit

As i stated previously the scriptures clearly teaches us how to pray to God and glorify him. It says nothing about doing hail marys. False doctrines doesn't glorify God just saying

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

PrynceNY said:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Hosea 4:6

Could we keep it in context please and not just use it the way it pleases us?
Hosea was speaking to the Northern Kingdom of, Israel.
They had abandoned God, He was no longer a part of their life. They were no longer faithful to God...

Anyone going to confession DESIRES to be faithful to God.
There's a whole history behind confession. You should check it out if you're going to talk about it so much. It has changed over the 2,000 years that its been practiced.

This is point 1 in chapter 14 of the Didache. It was written about 90 AD while some Apostles were still living and it very well is believed by many to have been written by the apostles...

1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure;

And here is what some early church fathers believed. They were the closest to Jesus and the Apostles, before all started to be changed...

St. Irenaeus of Lyons
180 AD
Against Heresies 1:22

[The gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women…Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron [cf. 1 Tim 4:1ff]. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses.

Tertullian of Carthage
200 AD
On Repentance 10:1,6

[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness. Why do you flee from the partners of your misfortunes as you would from those who deride? The body is not able to take pleasure in the trouble of one of its members. It must necessarily grieve as a whole and join in laboring for a remedy….With one and two individuals, there is the Church [cf. Matt 18:17ff]; and the Church indeed is Christ. Therefore, when you cast yourself at the knees of the brethren, you are dealing with Christ, you are entreating Christ.

Origen of Alexandria
c. 244 AD
Homily on Leviticus 2:4

In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he [the sinner] does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine….In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: “If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the presbyters [where we get priests] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him [James 5:14-15].”

St. Cyprian of Carthage
250 AD
The Lapsed 15:1-3; 28

The Apostle likewise bears witness and says: ….”Whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest…they do violence to his body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him.

….Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who…confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. God cannot be mocked or outwitted, nor can he be deceived by any clever cunning….Indeed, he but sins the more if, thinking that God is like man, he believes that he can escape the punishment of his crime by not openly admitting his crime….I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord.

St. Athanasius of Alexandria
295 – 373 AD
On the Gospel of Luke 19

Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest.

St. Basil the Great
330 – 379 AD
Rules Briefly Treated 288

It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries [i.e. the Sacraments] is entrusted [i.e. priests]. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt 3:6]; but in Acts they confessed to the Apostles, by whom also all were baptized [Acts 19:18].

St. Augustine of Hippo
c. 354 – 430 AD

Let this be in the heart of the penitent: when you hear a man confessing his sins, he has already come to life again; when you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confessing, he has already come forth from the sepulchre; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? “Whatever you loose on earth,” He says, “shall be loosed also in heaven” [Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23]. Rightly is the loosing of sins able to be given by the Church… (Psalms 101:2:3)

Sometimes I wonder if WE aren't the ones who are doing wrong??

PrynceNY · Apr 13, 2017

FranC said:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6 Could we keep it in context please and not just use it the way it pleases us? Hosea was speaking to the Northern Kingdom of, Israel. They had abandoned God, He was no longer a part of their life. They were no longer faithful to God... Anyone going to confession DESIRES to be faithful to God. There's a whole history behind confession. You should check it out if you're going to talk about it so much. It has changed over the 2,000 years that its been practiced. This is point 1 in chapter 14 of the Didache. It was written about 90 AD while some Apostles were still living and it very well is believed by many to have been written by the apostles... 1. On the Lord's Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; And here is what some early church fathers believed. They were the closest to Jesus and the Apostles, before all started to be changed... St. Irenaeus of Lyons 180 AD Against Heresies 1:22 [The gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women…Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron [cf. 1 Tim 4:1ff]. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of the life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between the two courses. Tertullian of Carthage 200 AD On Repentance 10:1,6 [Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness. Why do you flee from the partners of your misfortunes as you would from those who deride? The body is not able to take pleasure in the trouble of one of its members. It must necessarily grieve as a whole and join in laboring for a remedy….With one and two individuals, there is the Church [cf. Matt 18:17ff]; and the Church indeed is Christ. Therefore, when you cast yourself at the knees of the brethren, you are dealing with Christ, you are entreating Christ. Origen of Alexandria c. 244 AD Homily on Leviticus 2:4 In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance…when he [the sinner] does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine….In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: “If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the presbyters [where we get priests] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him [James 5:14-15].” St. Cyprian of Carthage 250 AD The Lapsed 15:1-3; 28 The Apostle likewise bears witness and says: ….”Whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” [1 Cor 11:27]. But [the impenitent] spurn and despise all these warnings; before their sins are expiated, before they have made a confession of their crime, before their conscience has been purged in the ceremony and at the hand of the priest…they do violence to his body and blood, and with their hands and mouth they sin against the Lord more than when they denied him. ….Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who…confess their sins to the priests of God in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience. God cannot be mocked or outwitted, nor can he be deceived by any clever cunning….Indeed, he but sins the more if, thinking that God is like man, he believes that he can escape the punishment of his crime by not openly admitting his crime….I beseech you, brethren, let everyone who has sinned confess his sin while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, while the satisfaction and remission made through the priests are still pleasing before the Lord. St. Athanasius of Alexandria 295 – 373 AD On the Gospel of Luke 19 Just as a man is enlightened by the Holy Spirit when he is baptized by a priest, so he who confesses his sins with a repentant heart obtains their remission from the priest. St. Basil the Great 330 – 379 AD Rules Briefly Treated 288 It is necessary to confess our sins to those to whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries [i.e. the Sacraments] is entrusted [i.e. priests]. Those doing penance of old are found to have done it before the saints. It is written in the Gospel that they confessed their sins to John the Baptist [Matt 3:6]; but in Acts they confessed to the Apostles, by whom also all were baptized [Acts 19:18]. St. Augustine of Hippo c. 354 – 430 AD Let this be in the heart of the penitent: when you hear a man confessing his sins, he has already come to life again; when you hear a man lay bare his conscience in confessing, he has already come forth from the sepulchre; but he is not yet unbound. When is he unbound? By whom is he unbound? “Whatever you loose on earth,” He says, “shall be loosed also in heaven” [Mt 16:19; 18:18; Jn 20:23]. Rightly is the loosing of sins able to be given by the Church… (Psalms 101:2:3) Sometimes I wonder if WE aren't the ones who are doing wrong??

"Anyone going to confession DESIRES to be faithful to God." Really? Sorry I wasn't conditioned by the false doctrines of catholics. I was taught to speak to God directly & preferably in private. No one needs to know the sins of another. so your going to confess your sins to some priest to receive forgiveness from God? makes no sense to me, i have a personal relationship with him & will directly talk to him. God can hear people anywhere they are & forgive them if they seek his forgiveness.

wwjd_kilden · Apr 13, 2017

PrynceNY said:

While I basically agree with you - We should indeed go directly to God ... and only He can FORGIVE ....
the bible does tell us to confess our sins to each other, (Note though that is says each other not just the priests)

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Maybe our churches would be better if we DID confess our sins, rather than making the ones struggling think they are the only ones and not daring to reach out

PrynceNY · Apr 13, 2017

wwjd_kilden said:

The scriptures states if you don't forgive others trespasses neither will your father forgive yours. God wants us to forgive others whether they have wronged or have done evil against us. However if you sinned against God take it to him & seek his forgiveness. As you have stated only he can forgive.

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

PrynceNY said:

You sound so puffed up with pride. Pride and Egotism, the two attitudes that most bring to sin. (I'm not meaning that you're sinning here on this thread, just stating a truth).

YOU weren't conditioned by false doctrine
YOU were taught to speak to God directly
YOU were taught to speak to Him in private
YOU have a personal relationship with Him
YOU will speak directly to Him

.....

I feel sorry for the rest of us blokes.

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

wwjd_kilden said:

This is a good point. You know how they say:
Don't be reminded
About what God has forgotten

or something like that. People who love God will tend to have a lingering guilty conscience. Not anything to speak of, thankfully, but there's Always that little voice in the back of our mind. Every now and then satan loves to bring it up to us.
We must keep reminding ouselves that if we are forgiven, God has also forgotten.

I do want to say this:

First of all I'm not Catholic although it may sound like it.
Catholics confess to PRIESTS. They have a special ministry for this and are sworn to secrecy. I'm not at all certain I'd care to confess to a pastor, for instance. After all, a priest is a special person, like the priests of Aaron's family were, or the Levites.

How would you feel confessing to your pastor??

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

wwjd_kilden said:

While I basically agree with you - We should indeed go directly to God ... and only He can FORGIVE ....
the bible does tell us to confess our sins to each other, (Note though that is says each other not just the priests)

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Maybe our churches would be better if we DID confess our sins, rather than making the ones struggling think they are the only ones and not daring to reach out

Do YOU care to interpret John 20:22-23 ?

It really seems clear to me -- I do think about this a lot.

PrynceNY · Apr 13, 2017

FranC said:

Pride? The churches my grandmother brought me & my sister didn't teach the catholic false doctrines. The preachers I listened to repeatedly spoke of having a personal relationship with the lord and going in your prayer closet. I am not the only one saying these things about the catholic church many people have exposed it already. Me stating i talk to god directly and have a personal relationship with him is prideful? really? i encourge others to have a personal relationship with the lord, speak to him privately and directly the lord wants his children to do that. Meanwhile you seem to encourge catholics to continue their doctrines and practices.

FranC · Apr 13, 2017

PrynceNY said:

It's not that only WE have the truth. Anyone seeking God can be saved. We know about Jesus so we need Jesus. We are saved through Him. Catholics know about Jesus. There's nothing we know that they don't. There has not been a lot of teaching in the RCC, but that has changed drastically.

I can only repeat and then I'll sign off.
It's not your DOCTRINE that saves youi
It's JESUS that saves you.

I don't know why this is not understood by you.
Would you care to go thru the false doctrines they teach?
I'd be willing if you thought it would do any good. The problem is that I think you're very against that church.
Are you against the reformed churches? I think they do a lot of harm to our new brothers in Christ and yet I don't hear much talk about them.

WHY do you dislike Catholics so much? This is so wrong.
We're all brothers in Christ --- those of us who believe.

Just because you're not the only one saying these things doesn't mean that it's right.
I also believe that there are some doctrine in the RCC that are incorrect. However, that does not deny that Jesus is taught, and that's what matters. Every church has some doctrine that is not correct. There's a protestant church in the next town up that teaches that one could be saved AFTER DEATH. Some churches teach that the end of the world has already happened, in 70 AD. And many more strange things. MUCH STRANGER than anything the RCC teaches!

Is it only confession that bothers you?
Do you want to explain John 20:22.23?

I'll say good night.

Utah · Apr 13, 2017

FranC said:

Don't fret none, Fran; I have plenty of disdain to go around. I despise Calvinism. Talk about a disgustingly arrogant concept that spits in the face of Christ and crushes the spirits of the tender hearted. It's a total puppet master ideology that offers little to no hope for folks who are weak in faith and not well read in Scripture.

MultilingualMessenger · Apr 13, 2017

Utah said:

MultilingualMessenger said:

Utah said:

I know. I said what I said in agreement with you, that priests are not the only ones with the authority to forgive. I was just adding that not only does God forgive, but people other than priests forgive too; in fact, we're commanded to. So the idea that only priests have the authority to forgive is hogwash, for more than one reason.

Utah · Apr 13, 2017

AllenW said:

I share God's love and grace with a tender heart.

I defend God's love and grace with a warrior's fierceness.

We all have strengths and weaknesses; mine are obvious.

Utah · Apr 13, 2017

MultilingualMessenger said:

Sorry, my Lady. You caught me in a "Utah" moment and I misunderstood you. Great seeing you. God bless you always.

MultilingualMessenger · Apr 13, 2017

Utah said:

It's okay. I reread my post and realized that what I meant was a little ambiguous, so I clarified. (It wasn't the best-communicated argument I've written, lol.) It happens!

wwjd_kilden · Apr 14, 2017

FranC said:

Well, there are two options really:

a) Followers of Christ can forgive sins (by the power of the holy spirit)
b) That particular gift was only for his disciples at the time

I personally would never dare to tell someone "I forgive your sins" (unless it was something concrete they had done to me),
but I wouldn't have a problem saying "If you regret and tell God, he has already forgiven your sins". Could be just me though.

Their (and my) sins were already forgiven at the cross (faith a requirement of course)

mj007 · Apr 14, 2017

If I take away words, speech, ideas, logical tools (therefore taking the Bible, pastors, religious divisions/belief systems out of the equation), am I still left with God? Of course, God is always there.

To me the Bible is a guide. It is a collection of inspirational writings. It has been changed many times, it has been translated and defined, it has been through many hands of men. When people refer to God writing the bible, well actually the bible has been redefined many times in history. What you would be saying is you trust a group of men you have never known, that they knew what God wanted in the bible. I'll tell you what I'm interested in, is not if, but why would they omit anything? If God wrote everything the prophets wrote, then why would they omit anything they said? To say nothing was omitted through editing is a kind of ignorance. It is what man does. Look at the massive organisation of the Catholic church. Was it started out of meekness, or power? How are most 'religious organisations' built up, out of meekness or power?

Exactly who tells you to put all your faith in the bible, is it the bible? Who tells you to read the bible inside out, is it the bible? Who tells you to take every single word literally, as matter of fact, is it the bible? Who tells you what the bible scriptures mean, is it the bible? Who tells you the bible is the whole truth and nothing but the truth (as in it has never ever been edited), is it the bible?

Everything to do with how people treat the bible, or how people are told to trust only the bible, or maybe how every other 'book' on earth is ALL LIES, does not come from the bible, and it does not come from God. These type of people are WALL-BUILDERS because, they have not overcome their own walls. They are people of many walls. As Christians we are supposed to go out there and break down walls.

To me God is everywhere, and in every person. Love. Whether they are Muslim, or Christian, Atheist, Kung-Fu Fighter, Butcher, Gay. It doesn't mean that I am saying they are connected to God. Everyone has God and they have free-will to follow God or follow themselves. I've known many good people in my life who spend their time helping others, more than some who read the bible inside out and yet spend more time bickering than being loving or helpful. Where does the connection to God come, is it through the bible, or is it through Jesus? And even the word 'through' is taken literally by the majority.

If I want to be a master of Kung-Fu then maybe Bruce Lee would be a good example. He is dead now, he in spirit. But if I thought of mastering kung-fu through the spirit of Bruce Lee, then to me, that is the same kind as the 'through' regarding knowing God through Jesus. Do I need to idolise Bruce Lee to master kung-fu? Or worship him? No, it is more about understanding, what was his attitude and his way of being that made him a master of kung-fu. I could read a book written by a 2nd or 3rd person, but it wouldn't tell me much if I wasn't able to submit to the spirit of what I am trying to do.

Being more Christlike, trying to be more selfless, trying to love enemies or those you fall out with, trying to be still rather than let your thoughts control your words and actions, hanging with those that many others will have put on the other side of a wall.

PrynceNY · Apr 14, 2017

mj007 said:

If I take away words, speech, ideas, logical tools (therefore taking the Bible, pastors, religious divisions/belief systems out of the equation), am I still left with God? Of course, God is always there. To me the Bible is a guide. It is a collection of inspirational writings. It has been changed many times, it has been translated and defined, it has been through many hands of men. When people refer to God writing the bible, well actually the bible has been redefined many times in history. What you would be saying is you trust a group of men you have never known, that they knew what God wanted in the bible. I'll tell you what I'm interested in, is not if, but why would they omit anything? If God wrote everything the prophets wrote, then why would they omit anything they said? To say nothing was omitted through editing is a kind of ignorance. It is what man does. Look at the massive organisation of the Catholic church. Was it started out of meekness, or power? How are most 'religious organisations' built up, out of meekness or power? Exactly who tells you to put all your faith in the bible, is it the bible? Who tells you to read the bible inside out, is it the bible? Who tells you to take every single word literally, as matter of fact, is it the bible? Who tells you what the bible scriptures mean, is it the bible? Who tells you the bible is the whole truth and nothing but the truth (as in it has never ever been edited), is it the bible? Everything to do with how people treat the bible, or how people are told to trust only the bible, or maybe how every other 'book' on earth is ALL LIES, does not come from the bible, and it does not come from God. These type of people are WALL-BUILDERS because, they have not overcome their own walls. They are people of many walls. As Christians we are supposed to go out there and break down walls. To me God is everywhere, and in every person. Love. Whether they are Muslim, or Christian, Atheist, Kung-Fu Fighter, Butcher, Gay. It doesn't mean that I am saying they are connected to God. Everyone has God and they have free-will to follow God or follow themselves. I've known many good people in my life who spend their time helping others, more than some who read the bible inside out and yet spend more time bickering than being loving or helpful. Where does the connection to God come, is it through the bible, or is it through Jesus? And even the word 'through' is taken literally by the majority. If I want to be a master of Kung-Fu then maybe Bruce Lee would be a good example. He is dead now, he in spirit. But if I thought of mastering kung-fu through the spirit of Bruce Lee, then to me, that is the same kind as the 'through' regarding knowing God through Jesus. Do I need to idolise Bruce Lee to master kung-fu? Or worship him? No, it is more about understanding, what was his attitude and his way of being that made him a master of kung-fu. I could read a book written by a 2nd or 3rd person, but it wouldn't tell me much if I wasn't able to submit to the spirit of what I am trying to do. Being more Christlike, trying to be more selfless, trying to love enemies or those you fall out with, trying to be still rather than let your thoughts control your words and actions, hanging with those that many others will have put on the other side of a wall.

The question is did those people you proclaim as "good" have God in their lives. Did they live for God & accept Christ as Lord. Soley Good works won't get people into Gods kingdom.

FranC · Apr 14, 2017

Utah said:

My sentiments exactly.
I feel that Calvinism is MUCH WORSE than doctrine the RCC has that I don't agree with. The ascension of Mary, for instance.

Why is it worse? It changes the character of God - nothing the Catholic Church teaches changes the character of God. Think about it.

I'm saying it would be nice for you to face these people in a calm manner and just DISCUSS without being too disdained.
Otherwise they don't even listen.

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