Need to get this out there

NoxVulpine · Oct 9, 2011

Hi there! I've had these feelings building up inside me for a while now and I thought I better get them out there and maybe talk about them and the like.

I've seen a lot of threads on the forum dealing with homosexuality and masturbation and the like; and it really hurts me seeing all these people posting how gays are evil and sinful and need to repent or burn in hell, and pretty much the same thing about masturbation.

The way I see things is like this; about masturbation, as far as I know God only smote one person for the act, and that was Onin, and He smote him because He actually told him to use his sperm to birth a child and upon masturbating Onin killed the sperm the Lord told him to use, knowing full well what he was doing.
So, really, that means that unless God has specific plans for your sperm, masturbation isn't a sin...

And regarding homosexuality; I, as a Christian, choose to follow what Christ taught. Christ never opposed or said anything about homosexuality. True, the Bible does state that it is a sin, however, it is not what Christ taught. Christ referenced most if not all of the important parts of the Old Testament, and as I said before, said nothing about homosexuals. And the hypocritical stance some Christians take towards them is appalling! I've heard Christians insulting gays and saying how evil they are and how they're going to Hell and I find it absolutely disgraceful and I believe Christ would as well!

Christ taught "Love your neighbor as yourself", he did not teach "Love your neighbor as yourself. Except gays and fat people as they commit gluttony or those who masturbate."

Well that's all I have on the subject and I thank you for your time reading all this.

shemaiah · Oct 10, 2011

You must be joking! Seriously! Haven't you read in the bible that homosexauls will not inherit the kingdom of God? Oh maybe you haven't 1 Corinthians 6: 9- 10 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexual immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor theives nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the Kindom of God."
Secondly, you are saying that we hate them, but if we hated them wouldn't we just leave them the way they are? We will teach them the Word of God that they may be freed from all sin and death and We shall pray for them daily so that they may develop a relationship with Jesus and be with Him forever. THAT IS OUR VISION!!! Were the go wrong we shall correct them with the Word of God!

NodMyHeadLikeYeah · Oct 10, 2011

Hate to break it to you kiddo, but the bible in its entirety is gods written word. So saying yes being a homosexual is a sin in the bible, but god didnt say that is rediculous.
Is it wrong to insult them or any one that struggles with sin...heck yes.

Timofree · Oct 10, 2011

In the Bible it says if you break one part of the law, you break them all, so since becoming a Christian I've commited murder & adultery of the heart, lied, blasphemed, dishonoured my parents, not kept the sabbath day holy, coveted etc- many times.
Praise God though I stand before Him in the righteousness of Christ. But this doesn't mean I want to keep on sinning, God tells us not to sin because He loves us, and He knows the bondage it causes. Plus Christ died for us, and whilst we don't have to not sin for our salvation, out of respect we should desire to.

So yeah, by all means love homosexuals, sexually immoral, remembering that loving people in the true sense includes telling them to flee from that sin........for their own sake!

Of myself though, but for Christ as my Saviour, I am no better than anybody, and worthy of an eternity in hell

NoxVulpine · Oct 10, 2011

shemaiah said:

Yes, that obviously speaks against homosexuals however I have researched that passage of the Bible and have found that the term "homosexual offenders" comes from the word "arsenokoite" which may also be attributed to male prostitutes and even those who sold children as sex slaves, so there's also the possibility that when he said "homosexual offenders" he was referring to the act of child sex slavery.

Ugly · Oct 11, 2011

So you're pretty much just choosing that if the words aren't in red letters they don't mean anything? So you exclude almost the entire bible in order to isolate certain parts of it to suit your personal opinions. Great logic.

NoxVulpine · Oct 11, 2011

Ugly said:

I "isolate" the old testament because it is unrelated to Christ, related to God yes, but not Christ, and CHRIST is where our religion comes from. There are parts of the OT that Christ references, and those I believe in, but all anti-homosexuality was in the old testament, with the exception for 1-Corinthians in the New Testament, which, as researches have found, may not even mean "man on man sex" at all. The word homosexuality before it was translated as such originally meant male prostitutes, rapists and those who kept children for sex slavery, which is what some believe "homosexual offenders" means.

Deadflesh · Oct 11, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

God made Adam and Eve.

I know, I know that sounds SOOO cliche. But its a physical parable for a spiritual idea, a picture GOD is trying to paint to us.

God Made ADAM out of dirt, and breathed SPIRIT/Breath(life) into him. God took adams Rib and made EVE.

But he Did NOT brethe Spirit into her. She lived becasue Adam lived they were ONE FLESH.

In Malachi 2:15 It says MAN is the one with the Remenant of the spirit. The woman does NOT have the remenant of the Spirit. In a TRUE perfect Covenant Mariage The PErfect Man, and the Perfect Completion of MAN(WOman) are United again. Becomign ONE FLESH.

It is a physical picture of how the CHURCH, the Followers of JESUS, become ONE with JESUS. JESUS Was the one who had the SPIRIT, now becasue of HIS death, shed blood on the Cross, and ressurction WE become ONE FLESH with HIM. WE have HIS spirit in us, becasue OF HIM.

SO Since MAN has the remnant of the Spirit, In order to be complete, he NEEDS woman. (unless God calls hi mto be celebate...but that is a GIFT that 1 Chrointhians 7 says not ALL have) And in order for Woman to have LIFE(spirit, breath) She NEEDS to be with MAN. becasue they are ONE MAN(Genesis 1:27)

SO, Since THAT is how GOD made it, for HIS purposes, then THAT is perfect mariage. Anythign outside of THAT, is an abomination, a Creation of MAN and sin(missing the mark of GODS perfect Will and WORD)

MAN would only have longing for another MAN to gratify there OWN Desire. it CANNOT be in love. Not Agape love that CHRIST calls us to. AGAPE love coems ONLY From GOD, and is possible ONLY IN GOD through his SOn JEsus Christ.

SO, To NOT HAVE agape LOVE is allready sin, becasue Christ Jesus comanded us to have it and for it to grow and us to be perfectd in it. And if you are in AGAPE then you WILL fullfill GODS comandments, and since HIS will as that MAN and woman come togehter to COMPLETE MAN. then MAN and MAN commign together IS infact an ABOMINATION

Leviticus 20:13
"If a man also lies with a man, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

God is VERY Seroious about his covenants. And VERY serious about anything that would defile his covenant. God never Changed. JESUS IS the GOD of the OLD testement. and its not to keep one from "happyness" its to keep them from Judgment. GOd set down LAW, and set down what happens if you break that law.

To re-cap. MAN has the remnant of the Spirit. Woman does not. they NEED EACH OTHER(unless God gives each a gift of celebacy) to COMPLETE man. MAN and MAN is an abomination, and WOaman and Woaman has no life(remant of the Spirit)

MAke sence? Try not to tell GOD what to do.

timbo2computers · Oct 11, 2011

i think what NoxVulpine is realy geting across is that the atatudes of christians need to change... regardless of ones view on the topic. saying harsh words and condemning people only make the problem worse.

as someone struglling with the above topics its really horable when people take about gays as the skum of the earth as i neaver wanted to be gay and im trying my hardist to change.. its just not nice

Deadflesh · Oct 11, 2011

timbo2computers said:

Yeah its AWFUL the way people treat people. As A Follower of Jesus, we are Called to live at peace with aLL MEN(Roamns 12:18, Romans 14:9, Hebrews 12:14) And that means ALL MEN, Gay, stright, unbeliver, beliver, etc.. We are NEVER to treat ANY human as "the scum of the earth" and it has ALWAYS made me think twice about if someone ACTUALLY knows Christ when they have such animosity torwards ONE type of person. YES Homosexuality is a sin, BUT, So is hands that shed innocent blood. And if you REALLY want to know, AMERICA and most of the WORLD actually, has SO MUCH innocent blood on there hands. That is JusT as much an abomination as A man lying with a man. AS is Puttign away a wife(what we would call divorce) and i never see Christians protesting divorce lawyers.

However, that is NOT what NOXVulpine is saying HE is trying to say that CHRIST is not agaisnt homosexuals. Thats nto true, becasue CHRIST is the GOD of the OLD TESTMENT. and GOD never changes.

The ONLY thign that changed is NOW our war is SPIRITUAL and not phsycial And we are to ALWAYS LOVE and be at peace wit hALL people. NEVER EVER change the truth for a lie, ALLWAYS preach the TRUTH in LOVE, but NEVER hate or persecute, or accuse. A man isnt goign to hell becasue he lays with a man, he is goign to hell becasue he DOESNT KNOW JESUS. and thts it. if eternal LIFE is knowign JESUS then THAT is hat we need to rpeach, and when you KNOW JESUS and the MORE you know jesus by spendign time with hi in prayer, and OBEYING his words in the gospels, then HE grows IN YOU(if you have repented sins and of your life i nthe first place)

So TRUTH must not be changed...however MOST peopel who clai mto be christians still hatte, still are a respector of persons, they STILL knwo peopel after the flesh. 3 thigns we are called NOT to do. IF you know you are in a sin, then its up to YOU to get on your knees and BEG God to get it all out. He will the more we go to him.

I had struggled with alot of Sexual sins. ALLOT. ONE sexual sin is not WORSE then another. its ALL sin agaisnt CHRISTS BODY(your body is christs if you say you are a christian)

So to hate anyone based on ONE sin is silly, however to make a NEW law that says Jesus doesnt mind if you are gay is ALSO jsut as silly...and wrong. If yo are a Sinenr, God doesnt loo kat you as "a homo" or a "adulter" or a "abuiser" He looks at you as DEAD IN YOUR SINS. thats it. weather your in is Homosexuality, or you sin is HAtred and outbursts of Anger. they are EQUAL. We need to be cleaned of ALL sin, and thats only possible if w LAY DOWN our life to JESUS, in EVERY WAY he will come and take it away as we lay it at his feet.

ok...im long winded. in short. Soemone who hates ANYONE may need to search there heart and mae sure they KNOW Jesus, i wont judge anyones alvation...but it makes me think.
May Jesus bless you, and may You Bless him.

Ugly · Oct 12, 2011

Right, but there is no Jesus without God.There are one in the same. So to say God gave the OT, but i only follow the teachings of Jesus is, quite honestly, some of the worst logic i've ever heard. God and Jesus are essentially the same. The bible was given to us by the Father of Jesus. The whole bible. Not just the parts you want to pick and choose.

NoxVulpine · Oct 12, 2011

Let's look at it like this; gays are born gay. God creates man, which mean if somebody is born gay, then it is by Gods will that they are so. If it's such a horrible sin to be gay, why would God make somebody such a sinner from birth?

jimmydiggs · Oct 12, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

While that's not an accurate picture of events per se, I sense a great amount of arbitrariness...

There is more research to suggest that Serial Killers are born with a predisposition toward being a Serial Killer than one might be comfortable with.

I really doubt you're argument will be extended to serial killers. If it is not, it demonstrates inconsistancy on your behalf. Inconsistancy is almost always the sign of a bad argument.

Overall, this demonstrates two likely things, either it is out of a refusal to submit to God, or it is out of genuine misconception.

truthseeker · Oct 12, 2011

Why does the Koran demand death for homosexuals as well? perhaps it was a cultural meme that made its way into the religions of that time period. Its not my personal opinion , just throwing it out there.

NoxVulpine · Oct 12, 2011

It just doesn't make sense... Why would God automatically condemn people because of something they can't control? Something their born with? It's like saying that people born with blonde hair or blue eyes are sinners even though they don't get to choose, they're just born that way.

jimmydiggs · Oct 12, 2011

truthseeker said:

Were the original manuscripts inspired and inerrent?

jimmydiggs · Oct 12, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

Paul beat you to that question.

Romans 9 said:

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[b] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]
14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

Deadflesh · Oct 12, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

No one is BORN GAY.

To expose myself a bit, Before i came to the lord i was DEEP into Pornography...DEEP, ALL types, types or porn that i cant even mention here.

Was i BORN additced to that? no. Was i BORN wit hthe pre dispostion to DO that? yes..it was MY desire.

Are you BORN gay? Absolutely not...are you born predisposed to BEIGN gay? YES we all are, becasue the flesh is the SAME, UNDER ADAM we are all capable of ALL sins. ITS ONLY desire. You can blame it on genes, or try to blame it on Learned behavior to one extent or another..but its ALL desire.

YOU are not BORN GAY, you are BORN evil. YOu WANT to do what YOU WANT. YOu are born innocent as far as you havent SINEND yet, becasue you SIN with the heart, its the HEART that matters so as far as that, you are neutral, but your NATURE is Fallen, you AHVE adams NAtrue which is SELFISH, SOULISH, NOT spiritual, NOT of faith, NOT of GOD. its SATAN. SATAN is the Devil(serpents) relationship IN MAN, we are ALL in the likness of SATAN, the SEED of SATAN, YOUR FATHER IS THE DEVIL untill you are BORN AGAIN.

SO, There is NO one BORN GAY, just like there is NO ONE BORN straight. You are BORN corrupt. and most of what you develop is learned. Thats why it syas in the BIBLE "RAISE a child up in the way he should go"(paraphrased) Meaning TEACH HIM... dotn let him jsut DO thigns becasue when he is OLD he will NEVER be teachable. RAISE HIM. if it was ALL just based off of what you were BORN As, then teaching wouldnt be a factor, and if GOD pre ordained you to BE somthing, then Teaching would not be a factor.

Anyone who IS gay, was NOT born that way. ANy one who IS straight...was NOT born that way. WE were BORN to follwo DESIRE, and our desire is developed from WHAT we are taught and WHO we follow.

Understadn that simply enough? If I Continued in the Horible pornography sin i was in..who KNOW what would have becoem of me...but JESUS Caleld me out, and i cant thank him enough. But i wasnt BORN desiing what i desired, it BECAME what i was, becasue i allwoed it, it what i desired...It happend to me becaue it was it was POSSIBLE to happen, just like it was possible to NOT happen.

But NO ONE is born gay, you are just Born Selfish, and Covetous. YOu are BORN serving the spirit of the WORLD, unless you are TAUGHT to do otherwise, which hopefulyl will lead to REBIRTH in the spirit of GOD.

But again, NO ONE IS BORN GAY. Not only is it not proven in science if you call yourself a christan its NOT a biblical idea, we are BORN allready an enemy of GOD. Lookign like satan. And Condemned.

Thats why PAUL said to the Corintian church in 1 Cor 5, DO NOT JUDGE THE WORLD, let GOD judge the world, YOU judge the sin in THE BODY, you teach the BODY, you feed the BODY, and keep sin, cast out the rebelious part of the BODY, judge THERE. Because THERE is the camp, there is the new birth, there is the TENTS of the lord, if the ENEMY is there we must get rid of him.

if you were in a WAR, would you allow the other side to bunk with you? haha NO!! ...SO its the same thing. We are BORN enemies of GOD, adn HE loved us so much that HE made it possible to make an enemy, to make a TOTALY Different RACE(adamic) into HIS chidlren(Christ) Those whos Father is the DEVIL nto SONS of GOD becasue ofthe BLOOD of the sacrifce lamb of GOD.

So to then go and say "GOd made me Gay" s totaly untrue GOD made you a vessle, and YOU chose what you wnated based off of what you were taught. And through out your life GOD in his gace and mercy brought peopel to Show you TRUTH, and then it was up to YOU to belive the TRUTH or follow the LIE, and stay an enemy of GOD.

Gay/Straight/ whatever...you were BORN wit hthe abiltiy to be either. and its YOUR CHOICE to become it, of to repent of it and turn.

PRety Cool huh? GOD in his grace and mercy made it possible for you to be HIS chidl, even after you daily CHOSE to be his enemy?

xJoe · Oct 13, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

Hi there! I've had these feelings building up inside me for a while now and I thought I better get them out there and maybe talk about them and the like.

I've seen a lot of threads on the forum dealing with homosexuality and masturbation and the like; and it really hurts me seeing all these people posting how gays are evil and sinful and need to repent or burn in hell, and pretty much the same thing about masturbation.

The way I see things is like this; about masturbation, as far as I know God only smote one person for the act, and that was Onin, and He smote him because He actually told him to use his sperm to birth a child and upon masturbating Onin killed the sperm the Lord told him to use, knowing full well what he was doing.
So, really, that means that unless God has specific plans for your sperm, masturbation isn't a sin...

And regarding homosexuality; I, as a Christian, choose to follow what Christ taught. Christ never opposed or said anything about homosexuality. True, the Bible does state that it is a sin, however, it is not what Christ taught. Christ referenced most if not all of the important parts of the Old Testament, and as I said before, said nothing about homosexuals. And the hypocritical stance some Christians take towards them is appalling! I've heard Christians insulting gays and saying how evil they are and how they're going to Hell and I find it absolutely disgraceful and I believe Christ would as well!

Christ taught "Love your neighbor as yourself", he did not teach "Love your neighbor as yourself. Except gays and fat people as they commit gluttony or those who masturbate."

Well that's all I have on the subject and I thank you for your time reading all this.

Christ did not mention homesexuality because he didn't have to. His listeners were Jewish and that in the time of Christ was not a big issue for jews. Now if the Jews were committing goads of homosexual acts Jesus would of corrected them. But they did not so he didn't have to.

TheAristocat · Oct 13, 2011

NoxVulpine said:

Onan was not killed because he wasted semen but because he would not give his brother's wife a child. This is called Levirate marriage and was commanded by God in the Torah. Onan disobeyed God's Torah out of jealousy or indifference - I do not know why - and so died the death of a sinner. See Genesis 38:8-9.

As for gays, I used to have a gay friend and he was fun to hang out with, but I believe that homosexual acts - because they are condemned in the New Testament as well as by God (who is Jesus) in the Torah - are sin. And if you have a nature within you that leads to sin then it is a sinful nature and should be resisted. I hope that all homosexuals out there, though, will find comfort in God and pray for his help. He understands their pain and I imagine will be sympathetic with a willing heart that genuinely seeks him even if it falters from time to time.

Need to get this out there

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