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L
i think certainty in beliefs can be quite a scary thing sometimes.. like the friends (who i mentioned in my last message lol) are certain of their faith in Christianity. it's real without a shred of doubt. and therefore anybody who doesn't have those views just needs abit of convincing... after enough talks/reading/demonstrations etc they'll eventually 'get it'.
i'll confess i can't help but have the same attitude myself... to me God isn't real.. so therefore people who do believe in God just need enough convincing..
maybe it's good to have a healthy dose of 'doubt'.. it'd certainly make people less hostile...
this isn't really me making a point or anything by the way.. i just think it's interesting to talk about these things..
i'll confess i can't help but have the same attitude myself... to me God isn't real.. so therefore people who do believe in God just need enough convincing..
maybe it's good to have a healthy dose of 'doubt'.. it'd certainly make people less hostile...
this isn't really me making a point or anything by the way.. i just think it's interesting to talk about these things..
Hehe well, I'm not here to convince you. You gotta believe it for yourself. You gotta feel Jesus for yourself. But I know what I've gone through...and even then, when I was SO CLOSE to the edge...something has pulled me back and helped me through it. Through my experiences in life, and through some other ways, I have seen Jesus in it.
Hehe I I see what you mean there. I dunno how doubt makes people less hostile, though. I mean yes I've had my doubts but once again, something has always brought me back to Jesus. And I have a lot less doubts now. A lot of times I've thought, "What doubts?"
I may get excited over my faith (not like mean or tense excited, just excited. lol) but never hostile. It doesn't do any good to get hostile, and besides...the Bible says to love one another. Always respond in love....what good IS anything without love? (btw, I don't love because the Bible tells me to...it's because I WANT to.
I want people to see the light and the hope that shines in me.)
Yeah, it is. And you know, it's good to learn about other things. Good to learn what certain people believe, why they believe it...I think it helps people get to know each other and maybe even get along though they may believe different things.
Hehe I I see what you mean there. I dunno how doubt makes people less hostile, though. I mean yes I've had my doubts but once again, something has always brought me back to Jesus. And I have a lot less doubts now. A lot of times I've thought, "What doubts?"
I may get excited over my faith (not like mean or tense excited, just excited. lol) but never hostile. It doesn't do any good to get hostile, and besides...the Bible says to love one another. Always respond in love....what good IS anything without love? (btw, I don't love because the Bible tells me to...it's because I WANT to.
I want people to see the light and the hope that shines in me.) Yeah, it is. And you know, it's good to learn about other things. Good to learn what certain people believe, why they believe it...I think it helps people get to know each other and maybe even get along though they may believe different things.
S
I put my faith in God above and the Holy Bible. I thank God that just because someone else has no faith in it; it doesn't change the truth of God's word or the plan of salvation. God is real and one day you will come to the knowledge of the truth; I pray that it is while you are here breathing the air that God made with the lungs that God made. The Bible says that one day every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. I confess Jesus as my Lord and Savior and my confidence is in Him. May God have mercy on your soul and may you accept Jesus before its too late.
L
to sort of follow up on the point i made before, it's sometimes interesting to think COULD somebody change their opinion if given enough evidence (whatever that might be lol)... this goes for christians and atheists..
or have people become too entrenched (for what of a better word) in their lives... like Buddhist monks for example living in their mountain communes.. i don't think they could actually bring themselves to change their mind because the're too far 'in'... it's kinda worrying... Christianity isn't so bad i guess... but Islam is very secular, entire families and entire countries share your belief.. so to even THINK of challenging it is a massive step...
again i'll hold my hands up and say i can't help but surround myself in atheist... friends.. music.. lifestyle... because..well... you just can't help it..
"I thank God that just because someone else has no faith in it; it doesn't change the truth of God's word or the plan of salvation."
(not worked out how to do that 'quote thing' yet.. so i'm just copying and pasting lol)
and yes i've got the same relief.. but from a different perspective... just because people believe stuff that doesn't make it true...
or have people become too entrenched (for what of a better word) in their lives... like Buddhist monks for example living in their mountain communes.. i don't think they could actually bring themselves to change their mind because the're too far 'in'... it's kinda worrying... Christianity isn't so bad i guess... but Islam is very secular, entire families and entire countries share your belief.. so to even THINK of challenging it is a massive step...
again i'll hold my hands up and say i can't help but surround myself in atheist... friends.. music.. lifestyle... because..well... you just can't help it..
"I thank God that just because someone else has no faith in it; it doesn't change the truth of God's word or the plan of salvation."
(not worked out how to do that 'quote thing' yet.. so i'm just copying and pasting lol)
and yes i've got the same relief.. but from a different perspective... just because people believe stuff that doesn't make it true...
Yeah, that's why I said I'm not here to convince ya, because either you believe what I say or ya don't...but just don't be surprised if I pop out a testimony.
But I just have a question on an atheist life perspective...what is the meaning of life? You may or may not have heard a Christian question you this, but I've never seen an atheist answer it. (mainly because I haven't been around when they answered)
But I just have a question on an atheist life perspective...what is the meaning of life? You may or may not have heard a Christian question you this, but I've never seen an atheist answer it. (mainly because I haven't been around when they answered)
And while, we all have things we surround ourselves with, I think it's good to get out of that world we ourselves live in, and see the world around us. Doesn't mean we involve ourselves in what the world does. But just start learning on what else is going on out there outside our own little world...sorta sounds like what you're doing a little bit Luke...learning about other things.
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R
Knowledge is power lol
I love speaking with atheists, personally. I find conversations with them to generally be more intellectually rewarding than when I speak with Christian friends. It's not that Christians are stupid...not by any means. But more like the Christian worldview can sometimes halt exploration into ideas. Like if I say I have a lot on my mind regarding this issue or that or I have been wondering about something, rather than inquiring about what is on my mind, they simply say, "trust in God." The conversation is over before it began.
Being friends with atheists means you can't stop conversations short. Quite the opposite, actually...you chase a lot of rabbits down a lot of holes. What's brilliant about that, as a Christian, is if you let them talk long enough, they will eventually give you the perfect opportunity to talk to them about God or the Bible or what your life is like as a Christian. They can't help it and you can't miss it. You have to be ready for whatever may come up. It's quite a challenge, but it makes for really wonderful conversations and personal connections.
Pray for your friends...most definitely. Pray for yourself that God puts the right words in your mouth when the time is right to share truth.
Listen to what your friends have to say. Like really listen. Not just to their words but to what they really mean.
I love speaking with atheists, personally. I find conversations with them to generally be more intellectually rewarding than when I speak with Christian friends. It's not that Christians are stupid...not by any means. But more like the Christian worldview can sometimes halt exploration into ideas. Like if I say I have a lot on my mind regarding this issue or that or I have been wondering about something, rather than inquiring about what is on my mind, they simply say, "trust in God." The conversation is over before it began.
Being friends with atheists means you can't stop conversations short. Quite the opposite, actually...you chase a lot of rabbits down a lot of holes. What's brilliant about that, as a Christian, is if you let them talk long enough, they will eventually give you the perfect opportunity to talk to them about God or the Bible or what your life is like as a Christian. They can't help it and you can't miss it. You have to be ready for whatever may come up. It's quite a challenge, but it makes for really wonderful conversations and personal connections.
Pray for your friends...most definitely. Pray for yourself that God puts the right words in your mouth when the time is right to share truth.
Listen to what your friends have to say. Like really listen. Not just to their words but to what they really mean.
R
I once was lost, but now I'm found...was blind but now I see.
It happens all the time, but yeah, it's not easy.
It's like the narrative fallacy...or illusory correlation. Once you believe a story, details are of little consequence and facts are basically irrelevant. This is true for all human beings, regardless of what they believe about the world. Whatever your worldview is, all information you take in will be skewed by this view. You will see connections that aren't really there. You will apply meaning where there is only data. It's a human thing. We dismiss things that contradict and give weight to things that reaffirm.
We rarely change our minds...what we change is our hearts. We change how we apply emotional values to things, and those emotional values are worth significantly more to us that real statistics and probabilities. A changed heart can become a changed mind, but it doesn't usually work the other way around.
It happens all the time, but yeah, it's not easy.
It's like the narrative fallacy...or illusory correlation. Once you believe a story, details are of little consequence and facts are basically irrelevant. This is true for all human beings, regardless of what they believe about the world. Whatever your worldview is, all information you take in will be skewed by this view. You will see connections that aren't really there. You will apply meaning where there is only data. It's a human thing. We dismiss things that contradict and give weight to things that reaffirm.
We rarely change our minds...what we change is our hearts. We change how we apply emotional values to things, and those emotional values are worth significantly more to us that real statistics and probabilities. A changed heart can become a changed mind, but it doesn't usually work the other way around.
L
"But I just have a question on an atheist life perspective...what is the meaning of life? You may or may not have heard a Christian question you this, but I've never seen an atheist answer it. (mainly because I haven't been around when they answered)"
well i've got two responses to this really.. for me personally asking what the point in life is without a God is where the fun begins. there is no immediate answer.
and secondly (this is close to my own opinion i guess) i think it's an odd question to begin with. 'Life' is nothing more than a noun at the end of the day.. it would be like asking what the point to a mountain is. there is no point to a mountain.. it's just a mountain.
i've had a christian ask me this before yes... and they got a little confused because it all sounds rather bleak and pointless... but that's beside the point. i would love to believe in a God. i'd actually think it's great... eternity in heaven... love from a creator/father.. WHO WOULDN'T WANT IT... but just because something is desirable doesn't make it any convincing and so on... even if all atheists committed suicide because they were depressed and miserable that still would make their belief more or less valid.
does that sorta make sense?
well i've got two responses to this really.. for me personally asking what the point in life is without a God is where the fun begins. there is no immediate answer.
and secondly (this is close to my own opinion i guess) i think it's an odd question to begin with. 'Life' is nothing more than a noun at the end of the day.. it would be like asking what the point to a mountain is. there is no point to a mountain.. it's just a mountain.
i've had a christian ask me this before yes... and they got a little confused because it all sounds rather bleak and pointless... but that's beside the point. i would love to believe in a God. i'd actually think it's great... eternity in heaven... love from a creator/father.. WHO WOULDN'T WANT IT... but just because something is desirable doesn't make it any convincing and so on... even if all atheists committed suicide because they were depressed and miserable that still would make their belief more or less valid.
does that sorta make sense?
L
no... Christians aren't stupid... if religious debates prove anything they prove that people THINK.
i use to believe in the spirit and psychic kinda stuff... and i created a whole 'world view' to fit in with my belief.. that wasn't be being stupid that was just me trying hard to figure stuff out...
but yeah it's brilliant that, you admit the whole 'halting ideas' thing.. i can see how that would be irritating.. my christian friends sometimes get fed up with the whole 'happy clappy' image that comes with their religion sometimes...
yeah...it does sound pointless to me... I personally would rather live for something or someone and when I die find out it's fake than to live my whole life with nothing to live for and find out I was wrong. because in whole, Christianity gives people HOPE, something to live for, something to sing about, something to be joyful about. Tells people to not do crimes, love one another, and says that even when you feel like you have nothing left, there is Someone there for you and loves you. And that's enough to give anyone hope.
because in whole, Christianity gives people HOPE, something to live for, something to sing about, something to be joyful about. Tells people to not do crimes, love one another, and says that even when you feel like you have nothing left, there is Someone there for you and loves you. And that's enough to give anyone hope.
L
yeah...it does sound pointless to me... I personally would rather live for something or someone and when I die find out it's fake than to live my whole life with nothing to live for and find out I was wrong. because in whole, Christianity gives people HOPE, something to live for, something to sing about, something to be joyful about. Tells people to not do crimes, love one another, and says that even when you feel like you have nothing left, there is Someone there for you and loves you. And that's enough to give anyone hope.
because in whole, Christianity gives people HOPE, something to live for, something to sing about, something to be joyful about. Tells people to not do crimes, love one another, and says that even when you feel like you have nothing left, there is Someone there for you and loves you. And that's enough to give anyone hope.
i'd like to say that Christians don't have a monopoly on hope/love/joy though... i don't believe morality or love comes from God
and the whole 'finding out it's fake when i die' is an interesting point as well. It's the whole wager issue isn't it... you're better off believing in a God because of the 'risk' and so on..
but my response to that is just because of the question - is there or isn't there a God? that then doesn't make the choices 50/50. (i'm sure you'd agree to that). i'm taking into consideration ALL the theology debates... evidence for miracles... faith healing... intelligent design arguments... and i've not been all that convinced by any of it.. so (in my mind at least) i'm so confident in their not being a God that i don't see it as a 'risk' at all.
the same way you wouldn't feel any risk about going to the Hindu's equivalent of Hell... you just don't worry about it because it seems so odd...
Non-christians can have hope and non-christians have love, too. It's just for me, with Jesus, there is a lot more reason to have those things.
I didn't say Jesus is fake, though. I don't have doubts that Jesus is real. I've seen too much to say "Jesus isn't real." I just said that even IF it was fake, I would have rather lived for Jesus and find out when I die He's fake than to live for nothing but yourself and find out when you die Jesus is real. I'm not skipping out on risk, life is full of risk, I'm skipping out on living a pointless life. When you take out God what do you have?
Probably not. But here's an evidence for a miracle - we all woke up today alive and breathing. All of us - including me - have taken life for granted, when life in itself is a miracle.
And somehow, man has never been able to make something out of nothing...so where DID we all come from? See, Evolution doesn't even go along with cause and effect. There's only effect. I'm very much a practical person. And for someone to say we came from nothing, and to say that everything is just a mutation is not practical. So I say, something far above us, who CAN make something out of nothing, made us. And you know what, that's the cool thing about our God. There's nothing He can't do, there's no end to Him, He is not limitless!
Hinduism is just...weird.
I didn't say Jesus is fake, though. I don't have doubts that Jesus is real. I've seen too much to say "Jesus isn't real." I just said that even IF it was fake, I would have rather lived for Jesus and find out when I die He's fake than to live for nothing but yourself and find out when you die Jesus is real. I'm not skipping out on risk, life is full of risk, I'm skipping out on living a pointless life. When you take out God what do you have?
Probably not. But here's an evidence for a miracle - we all woke up today alive and breathing. All of us - including me - have taken life for granted, when life in itself is a miracle.
And somehow, man has never been able to make something out of nothing...so where DID we all come from? See, Evolution doesn't even go along with cause and effect. There's only effect. I'm very much a practical person. And for someone to say we came from nothing, and to say that everything is just a mutation is not practical. So I say, something far above us, who CAN make something out of nothing, made us. And you know what, that's the cool thing about our God. There's nothing He can't do, there's no end to Him, He is not limitless!
Hinduism is just...weird.
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L
"Ahhh to be so certain at 20 years old..."
the arrogance of youth etc..
"I'm skipping out on living a pointless life. When you take out God what do you have?"
in all honesty, if this is all there is to life... and there really is no God... and i die... and that's me gone forever... i'm happy to take it. FAR from diminishing life's value i feel it gives life all the more reason to be appreciated. because this really is the only chance you've got
the whole topics of 'miracles' and 'creationism' would be opening a whole new can of worms... i don't mind discussing my opinions on them if you want... it'd just take a while lol
the arrogance of youth etc..
"I'm skipping out on living a pointless life. When you take out God what do you have?"
in all honesty, if this is all there is to life... and there really is no God... and i die... and that's me gone forever... i'm happy to take it. FAR from diminishing life's value i feel it gives life all the more reason to be appreciated. because this really is the only chance you've got
the whole topics of 'miracles' and 'creationism' would be opening a whole new can of worms... i don't mind discussing my opinions on them if you want... it'd just take a while lol
R
It's the only chance you've got even if you DO believe in God.
I am curious, however, based on your posts here-
What sort of evidence are you requiring to believe in God?
Why are you requiring it?
The reason I ask is because I meet many atheists that demand smoking gun proof for the existence of God- something they know they can never have in this life. Why are they demanding it? Specifically because they know they can't have it.
Setting the standards impossibly high is the best way to ensure you will never have to face the question seriously.
Additionally, while they may demand absolute undeniable scientific evidence for the existence of God, they do not require the same sort of proof for other beliefs they hold. I find that inconsistency rather revealing, don't you?
What is a 'good reason' to believe in something? And are you willing to maintain that standard for all things?
I am curious, however, based on your posts here-
What sort of evidence are you requiring to believe in God?
Why are you requiring it?
The reason I ask is because I meet many atheists that demand smoking gun proof for the existence of God- something they know they can never have in this life. Why are they demanding it? Specifically because they know they can't have it.
Setting the standards impossibly high is the best way to ensure you will never have to face the question seriously.
Additionally, while they may demand absolute undeniable scientific evidence for the existence of God, they do not require the same sort of proof for other beliefs they hold. I find that inconsistency rather revealing, don't you?
What is a 'good reason' to believe in something? And are you willing to maintain that standard for all things?