What are our rights?

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J

JesusFreek

Guest
#1
Ok guys. I'm new here but i have a question for you. At my school i started a prayer group last year. We meet on school grounds. We pray out loud. We pray before the homeroom late bell rings. We've never made people late for homeroom. Nobody is forced to participate. Everyone who shows up voluntarily does so. We are not a club or even members of a club that could be counted as our "sponsor". We typically have 8-12 members that show up. We pray every morning.
Recently i've heard that people are saying what i've started is illegal. I've heard no talk that anyone is going to try and "shut us down" so to speak, but i want to be prepared for anything that might happen. Please respond with your opinion (preferably backed up with facts ie. Sources) as to whether or not this is legal for me to do or what i need to changeto make it legal. I'm willing to fiht for our rigt to pray. Thanks for your time!
 
J

JessicaMae

Guest
#2
It is not necessarily illegal but if people start complaining about it then the prayer group will sadly get shut down. There is a separation of church and state so if complaints start coming in the school will be forced to shut it down. Ad if you don't you could get in trouble with the law.
But if you do this prayer group not on school property, even if it is just a foot off of it, you can't get shut down. And if they try to shut you down it is illegal on their part, and they are taking away your first amendment which will get them in trouble!
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#3
It's a voluntary association. If they get upset about you praying in the school, pray accross the street. :) There's ways to get around their petty attempts to push you out. Also, I'm pretty sure if you want you can pray in school. Pray in the cafeteria, pray in class, I don't think they can stop it if I recall correctly.

From ADL (A liberal group)

General Rule: Organized prayer in the public school setting,
whether in the classroom or at a school-sponsored event, is unconstitutional.
The only type of prayer that is constitutionally permissible is private,
voluntary student prayer that does not interfere with the school's educational
mission.

May students pray? Students have the right to
engage in voluntary individual prayer that is not coercive and does not
substantially disrupt the school's educational mission and activities. For
example, all students have the right to say a blessing before eating a meal.
However, school officials must not promote or encourage a student's personal
prayer. Students may engage with other students in religious activity during
non-curricular periods as long as the activity is not coercive or disruptive. In
addition, while students may speak about religious topics with their peers,
school officials should intercede if such discussions become religious
harassment. It is essential that private religious activity not materially
disrupt the school's educational mission and activities. Personal religious
activity may not interfere with the rights or well-being of other students, and
the threat of student harassment and pressure must be carefully monitored. It is
also critical to ensure that the religious activity is actually
student-initiated, and that no school employee supervises or participates in the
activity. Any school promotion or endorsement of a student's private religious
activity is unconstitutional.

Are vocal prayer and Bible reading
in the classroom permitted?
Vocal denominational or nondenominational
prayer, and ceremonial reading from the Bible, are unconstitutional practices in
the public school classroom. [SUP]8[/SUP] It is legally irrelevant if
the prayer or Bible reading is voluntary, or if students may be excused from the
activity or classroom during the prayer. Student volunteers may not offer
prayers for recitation. [SUP]9[/SUP] Similarly, student volunteers
are prohibited from broadcasting prayers over a school intercom system into the
class-room. [SUP]10[/SUP]

Religion in the Public Schools - Prayer in Public School
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#4
It is not necessarily illegal but if people start complaining about it then the prayer group will sadly get shut down. There is a separation of church and state so if complaints start coming in the school will be forced to shut it down. Ad if you don't you could get in trouble with the law.
But if you do this prayer group not on school property, even if it is just a foot off of it, you can't get shut down. And if they try to shut you down it is illegal on their part, and they are taking away your first amendment which will get them in trouble!
Separation of church and state is not true. It is not in the Constitution. It was written by Thomas Jefferson, years after the constitution, in a private letter. The meaning was 'keep the state out of the church', not the other way around.

Schools should be teaching freedom, but have instead become havens for teaching compliance. Limiting free speech and free thinking. Limiting expression. Teach them this while they're young and they will accept it easier as they get older when the government becomes more intrusive (like they're doing now).
 
J

JesusFreek

Guest
#5
I'm taking a Government class this year and we're actually discussing this separation between church and state currently. I don't understand how they can say that we can't meet to pray if they don't tell other secular groups that they can't meet and do whatever they do, whether it be play chess, sing, discuss literature, etc. Isn't it discrimination?
 
J

JesusFreek

Guest
#6
Separation of church and state is not true. It is not in the Constitution. It was written by Thomas Jefferson, years after the constitution, in a private letter. The meaning was 'keep the state out of the church', not the other way around.

Schools should be teaching freedom, but have instead become havens for teaching compliance. Limiting free speech and free thinking. Limiting expression. Teach them this while they're young and they will accept it easier as they get older when the government becomes more intrusive (like they're doing now).

I agree with this. I just went to a set of lectures at a college near my high school to discuss this very topic actually. Thomas Jefferson was quoted using the metaphor of a "wall of separation" between the church and the state, which has been misinterpreted to turn the 1st amendment completely around. Now, instead of providing the church (or religious people) with religious liberties and freedom in public places, the 1st amendment is being interpreted as a governmental excuse to limit them. This is the exact opposite of what the Amendment was created for!
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#7
I'm taking a Government class this year and we're actually discussing this separation between church and state currently. I don't understand how they can say that we can't meet to pray if they don't tell other secular groups that they can't meet and do whatever they do, whether it be play chess, sing, discuss literature, etc. Isn't it discrimination?
Whose been saying it's illegal? People in authority positions or just other students? That can lend a lot to the credence of their claims.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#8
I agree with this. I just went to a set of lectures at a college near my high school to discuss this very topic actually. Thomas Jefferson was quoted using the metaphor of a "wall of separation" between the church and the state, which has been misinterpreted to turn the 1st amendment completely around. Now, instead of providing the church (or religious people) with religious liberties and freedom in public places, the 1st amendment is being interpreted as a governmental excuse to limit them. This is the exact opposite of what the Amendment was created for!
Perhaps the gov't. is protecting the nonreligious from the fervency of the religious?
 
J

JesusFreek

Guest
#9
Whose been saying it's illegal? People in authority positions or just other students? That can lend a lot to the credence of their claims.
Kids. There hasn't been any threats to shut us down
 
J

JesusFreek

Guest
#10
Perhaps the gov't. is protecting the nonreligious from the fervency of the religious?
But the purpose of the 1st amendment was to give freedoms to religious people. Nonreligious people already have a ton of protection set up for them by the govt w/o taking advantage of an amendment that isn't there's to misinterpret
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#11
I think the first should also protect nonbelievers from harassment and being witnessed too constantly, some christians have a tendency to be a bit pushy.
 
C

Careen

Guest
#12
Absolutely not illegal! Just put your trust upon Christ
although something might happen ,Christ will always be with you ;)
Just pray and trust in God !
If the things that you do is only for the glory of GOD, God will lead you through the trouble that we face
the only one that we have to fear is God ,not men
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#13
Ignore the kids. They don't know what they're talking about. You're not doing anything illegal.
 
J

JesusFreek

Guest
#14
Thanks so much for all of your advice! Luckily nothing has come of any of this and my group is still growing :)
 
Nov 30, 2012
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#15
The only argument your school could make is that this has become a club. But that probably won't stand. Don't be surprised if it is shut down, Christ told us that we would suffer for His Name and that the world would hate us, because it hated Him.
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
1,698
96
48
#16
Ok guys. I'm new here but i have a question for you. At my school i started a prayer group last year. We meet on school grounds. We pray out loud. We pray before the homeroom late bell rings. We've never made people late for homeroom. Nobody is forced to participate. Everyone who shows up voluntarily does so. We are not a club or even members of a club that could be counted as our "sponsor". We typically have 8-12 members that show up. We pray every morning.
Recently i've heard that people are saying what i've started is illegal. I've heard no talk that anyone is going to try and "shut us down" so to speak, but i want to be prepared for anything that might happen. Please respond with your opinion (preferably backed up with facts ie. Sources) as to whether or not this is legal for me to do or what i need to changeto make it legal. I'm willing to fiht for our rigt to pray. Thanks for your time!
What are they going to do? Seriously? You do have the right to your prayer meetings, and there's nothing they can legally do to stop you. What are they going to do? Get the cops to come arrest you for praying, which is a completely legal excercise? As much as the lefty-whackos would like that, it ain't gonna happen. As you said, it's all voluntary. Anybody who doesn't want to join doesn't join. Just act like the civilized Christians that you are. Nothing they can legally do. The "separation of church and state" mantra is a crock in this situation. Students have rights, they don't all evaporate when you come onto school grounds. You can even prosthelytize if you want to, as long as you are not pestering people. My kids have handed out tracts to their friends at school during recess and lunch breaks, never had any problems.
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
1,698
96
48
#17
I think the first should also protect nonbelievers from harassment and being witnessed too constantly, some christians have a tendency to be a bit pushy.
Their rights are protected, too.
They have the full right to exercise their atheism religiously and not pray.
Concerning witnessing, you ask people one time if they want to hear the Gospel.
If they say no, shake the dust of your shoes and move on. That's Bible.
 
E

Exoaria

Guest
#18
Ignore the kids. They don't know what they're talking about. You're not doing anything illegal.
If the school deems it disruptive, it is illegal. Sorry.
 
W

woka

Guest
#19
I just want to commend you for standing and praying everyday, I come from South Africa and really you can stand anywhere at anytime and pray and people would just walk up and join you, there would never be an issue made of it unless it stopped traffic or something.

I live in this third world country and sadly am going to miss so much when I immigrate to the U.K where everything is so orderly and you need permission for everything, living out here on the farm lands and having the freedom we do thinks that maybe third world is the place to be........
 

Elizabeth619

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2011
6,397
109
48
#20
If the school deems it disruptive, it is illegal. Sorry.
No. It is not illegal. Theres a huge difference in whether something is allowed or if it violates laws. Sorry.