A friendly chat with an unbeliever

[SkepticJosh]

What each of us has is an opinion. You are convinced your "proof" for your faith is infallible based on the say so of others. I am convinced my proof is infallible based on personal experience. I am completely fulfilled because I know I am right.

Wrong. I don't have any "proof" for my "faith"
I don't have any faith because of a lack of proof for god. Also the reason i don't believe isnt based on the say so of others, it's based on the lack of evidence supporting god as well as evidence that supports unguided natural processes instead which is far more persuasive. And even this isn't infallible because all someone needs to do is demonstrate to me sufficient evidence of a god and I'll be persuaded to believe. Personal experience may be fine for you but it has no influence on me and may actually be a misinterpretation of something you experienced that had nothing to do with the supernatural. I'm not trying to belittle you or anyone when i say that you think you're right. You don't know you're right.

 

[maxwel]

Josh,

Discussions on atheism and atheist apologetics should really be done in the Bible Discussion Forum.

Doing this is the teen forum gives the impression you're an experienced, and maybe even older,
atheist apologist, only hanging out in the teen room so you can confuse young people who aren't so well studied in their beliefs. I'm not saying this is the case, but it IS the impression it gives, and many people HAVE done this before.

So... it's really best if you put atheist apologetics in the Bible Discussion Forum.
The "Teen Forum" on a Christian website is a place for Christian Teens to chat... and... you're not one.

 

[SkepticJosh]

Virgin births are actually possible even without miracles. It's called parthenogenesis. But usually they're followed with strange abnormalities, and all offspring are female because of a lack of Y chromosomes. So virgin births? Possible. The virgin birth of a male child in the Bible? Probably still falls under the category of the miraculous.

Based on our current understanding of epigenetic it is not possible for parthenogenesis to occur in humans or any mammal for that matter. But this is irrelevant because as you've shown above it would end up female anyways so it doesn't apply to this story. Nor should we expect it to if God is omnipotent.

The Hebrews had a sacrificial system that made logical sense to them. I think it's up to us to figure out how exactly it made sense rather than just jump the gun and claim that it was completely arbitrary and had no greater cultural implications at that time. So I can provide you with one opinion on it:

I understand that but this is being presented not as what the Hebrews believed but as actual fact.

God has declared that the soul that sins will die. God is also against hypocrisy and double standards.

Not true because apparently being wrathful and killing is wrong for us but god can do it all he wants. The bible is filled with examples of things god can do but we can't do.

He still has pity on those who have sinned, so what does he do? Keep in mind that he put the price of sin at death. Whoever sinned needed to pay that price. Since he didn't want them to pay it should he just say that it shouldn't be paid at all anymore? Or should he pay the price?

Yes. He should say it doesn't have to be paid anymore. Or rather, he shouldn't have had it placed at that price in the first place seeing as he's omniscient and should've for seen this problem. God should not be able to change his mind at all. And how does paying the price change the price? If my buddy gets a speeding ticket and I'm the court and I pay it for him it doesn't abolish the price of speeding tickets after that. It doesn't reverse anything.

If he didn't pay the price wouldn't that be a double standard? He asks us to pay a certain price but doesn't want to pay it himself? So essentially it depends on God's own moral standard of non-hypocrisy and why God set the price of sin at death.

I demonstrated above that God had plenty of double standards. And rightly so of he is omnipotent, omniscent, and real. Asking us to pay a price that he shouldn't have set in the first place and then paying it for us doesn't abolish the price. But then again seeing as god is really just doing mental gymnastics with himself I guess it works.

You may find other opinions, but I hope this helps a little to understand other points of view.

Not really but I see your logic. On one final note the sacrifice wasn't really all that great. Us humans die and then go to hell if we sin. Jesus led an apparently sinless life so how is a sinless man's death payment for a sinners death? And he died and then went to heaven 3 days after to become one with God again, so how was that much of a sacrifice? If anything Jesus benefited from it.

 

[SkepticJosh]

Josh,

Discussions on atheism and atheist apologetics should really be done in the Bible Discussion Forum.

I understand that the topic were discussing here happened to veer into bible study and would be better suited for the bible study forum. It wasn't my intention to have this discussion here it kind of just happened. But I don't see why any and all discussions on atheism should be regulated to that forum. The reason I posted my topic in here is because this is my age group so it seemed appropriate.

Doing this is the teen forum gives the impression you're an experienced, and maybe even older,
atheist apologist, only hanging out in the teen room so you can confuse young people who aren't so well studied in their beliefs.

I apologize again but that simply isn't true. I am actually 17 going on 18. True though I am very experienced and have been reading, debating, and talking with theists for a couple years now. My goal was not to confuse or convert people, we're just talking back and forth. And to be honest these guys are actually studied pretty well and have presented me with things I've never heard before. Also note this thread is voluntary so I'd people don't want to interact here that's perfectly ok.

I'm not saying this is the case, but it IS the impression it gives, and many people HAVE done this before.

So... it's really best if you put atheist apologetics in the Bible Discussion Forum.
The "Teen Forum" on a Christian website is a place for Christian Teens to chat... and... you're not one.

I can see why you would get that impression and it may not be enough to convince you but that really isn't the case. If you and others would like I would be happy to move all discussion in biblical topics to that forum in the future. Again note that it wasn't my intention to be talking about this stuff here.

But I have to disagree with you that all atheism related discussion should be regulated to that forum. What if a topic had nothing to do with the bible? I don't see why it needs to be in there. Christian? No. Teen? Yes. The website allows non believers onto the site, I am a teen, therfore I should be justified in being here (so long as I'm not a disturbance). Also I think it is important that Christians and atheists my age talk to each other and bridge the gap between us. I want to connect with these people and if they want to as well then that is their choice. I think that's enough justification for posting in this forum. However all bible themed topics I will post in the bible discussion forum from now on. Thanks for the feedback

 

[TheAristocat]

Not really but I see your logic. On one final note the sacrifice wasn't really all that great. Us humans die and then go to hell if we sin. Jesus led an apparently sinless life so how is a sinless man's death payment for a sinners death? And he died and then went to heaven 3 days after to become one with God again, so how was that much of a sacrifice? If anything Jesus benefited from it.

Well, I'd say Jesus pretty much paid the price that sin asked for. He died. If you want to debate what constitutes death or what happens - Biblically speaking - to people after they die then you certainly can. My opinion in brief is that they die and stay dead. And I feel Jesus was as dead for three days as we are when we die.

If Jesus were a sinner his sacrifice wouldn't mean anything, because his sin would come with the same price. If he died he'd be paying the price for his own sin - not anyone else's. That's why there is needed a perfect, sinless sacrifice. Jesus, being God, probably did not benefit too much from coming down off his throne to be made in the likeness of weak human flesh, to be hated and tortured and nailed to a piece of wood and stabbed through with a spear. Probably wouldn't be the greatest vacation I could think up if I were God.

Not true because apparently being wrathful and killing is wrong for us but god can do it all he wants. The bible is filled with examples of things god can do but we can't do.

That's certainly true. His Law was made for sinful men to teach them accountability for their actions and holy behavior. A holy God would have no need of the Law, but that's not to say he wouldn't choose to live by it when the fundamental principles behind the Law reflect his own nature. Be it mental gymnastics or simply an omnipotent being having the audacity to hold himself accountable for his own actions, we see this sort of behavior in him throughout the Bible.

Hebrews 6:13 When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself,

I think it was usually that people swore by what was greater than them and had power over them, so that it would hold them accountable for their actions. But God swears by himself here, promising to hold himself accountable if he breaks a promise. Not much consolation if you can't trust God, but I think he makes a good effort to abide by his own standards (e.g. Jesus).

 

[maxwel]

Originally Posted by SkepticJosh
I apologize again but that simply isn't true. I am actually 17 going on 18. True though I am very experienced and have been reading, debating, and talking with theists for a couple years now. My goal was not to confuse or convert people, we're just talking back and forth. And to be honest these guys are actually studied pretty well and have presented me with things I've never heard before. Also note this thread is voluntary so I'd people don't want to interact here that's perfectly ok.

1. We have no way to confirm your age, and adults all over the internet often come into teen forums pretending to be teens, for varied unscrupulous purposes.
This is NOT to call you a liar, but this is rather an explanation of why the adults are concerned.

2. You are very upfront that you are experienced in atheist apologetics and debate.
Atheist apologists seldom come to a Christian website to have a friendly chat... they come to debate, argue, and stir up trouble.
Apologetics debates on this site are generally relegated to the "Bible Discussion Forum".
That is primarily where we do debates on this website.
I'm sure you didn't know that previously... but now you know.

3. From the title, it is a bit deceptive, and disingenuous, for a young atheist apologist to come here looking to start a debate, and claim that his intentions are only a "friendly chat". You've quite openly admitted that you are an atheist debater, and you have quite clearly been engaging in a debate here.

4. The reason the people in this thread seem "well studied" is because ALMOST ALL OF THE PEOPLE RESPONDING TO YOU ARE ADULTS. Most of us do not want our teens and youth harassed by an atheist apologist in a forum where they should be able to relax and discuss normal teen issues. Christian teens are constantly harassed and ridiculed by their classmates, teachers, friends, social groups, and just about everyone they encounter, everywhere they go, every minute of every day. They shouldn't be subjected to more of it here, on a Christian forum board, where they expect to be among friends and like-minded people.

5. From your previous responses to me, it sounds like you understand this website perfectly well, and you simply don't care what matters around here, or what upsets any of us.
That is more than enough to reveal your intentions.

 

[posthuman]

atheist groups have been sending out "evangelists" and staging "ask-an-atheist" events for several years now.

when are you guys gonna suit up and ride around neighborhoods on bicycles, knocking on doors?
when are you going to start sending out atheist missionaries to underdeveloped countries to teach them how to deny God?
do you have some tracts to hand out?
how many forums do you have to post in before you get your atheist-scout merit badge?
are you as well received as Christians who purposefully seek out atheist websites are?

 

[posthuman]

targeted advertising FTW

 

[SkepticJosh]

1. We have no way to confirm your age, and adults all over the internet often come into teen forums pretending to be teens, for varied unscrupulous purposes.
This is NOT to call you a liar, but this is rather an explanation of why the adults are concerned.

I understand that. You'll just have to take my word for it.

2. You are very upfront that you are experienced in atheist apologetics and debate.
Atheist apologists seldom come to a Christian website to have a friendly chat... they come to debate, argue, and stir up trouble.
Apologetics debates on this site are generally relegated to the "Bible Discussion Forum".
That is primarily where we do debates on this website.
I'm sure you didn't know that previously... but now you know.

This is a small detail but "atheist apologetics" isn't a thing. Apologetics is the defence of the Christian faith specifically. Therfore the term you're using is contradictory. I know what you mean by it I'm just pointing that out. I understand that certain atheists enjoy causing unrest among believers just as some Christians like doing the opposite. Again you'll just have to take my word for it and monitor my actions. I'm well aware that being a jerk will get me banned so clearly I won't do that and don't intend to. My intention for this thread was an introduction and the answering of questions which would certainly not be debate. Unfortunately it became that and the person who started it knew well before starting that it would be. Thank you for telling me where the debates take place so that I can try to keep that sort of thing in there.

3. From the title, it is a bit deceptive, and disingenuous, for a young atheist apologist to come here looking to start a debate, and claim that his intentions are only a "friendly chat". You've quite openly admitted that you are an atheist debater, and you have quite clearly been engaging in a debate here.

I wasn't trying to start a debate it was supposed to be mY introduction as a new member of the site and a Q and A. One member wanted to share with me bible verses and knew that I would let him know why I don't accept them. We mutually agreed to the "debate" even though it wasn't the point of the thread. Nobody seems to have a problem with this. Again, if ever I wish to have debates I will regulate them to the bible discussion forum as per your request.

4. The reason the people in this thread seem "well studied" is because ALMOST ALL OF THE PEOPLE RESPONDING TO YOU ARE ADULTS. Most of us do not want our teens and youth harassed by an atheist apologist in a forum where they should be able to relax and discuss normal teen issues. Christian teens are constantly harassed and ridiculed by their classmates, teachers, friends, social groups, and just about everyone they encounter, everywhere they go, every minute of every day. They shouldn't be subjected to more of it here, on a Christian forum board, where they expect to be among friends and like-minded people.

If you can't tell anyone age how do you know they're adults? And I am discussing a teen issue, the interaction between believers and non believers which spans all age groups. The next line is simply BS. Christians are not harassed or ridiculed like you say. They represent a vast majority of the population. Any teacher would be fired for such harassment. It's just blatantly untrue. I'm not saying it can't happen, just that it does not happen in that volume at all. Not even close. In fact I felt more included at school when I was a Christian than I do now. It feels normal to be christian and alien to be anything else in this country.

5. From your previous responses to me, it sounds like you understand this website perfectly well, and you simply don't care what matters around here, or what upsets any of us.
That is more than enough to reveal your intentions.

I had no idea debate was to take place in that other forum. So no I didn't know how this site wormed in that respect. I actually do care what goes on here as I have apologized, not caused any trouble so far, and abliged your request to keep all debate in that other forum. I don't see how that reveals some hidden intention to cause trouble or evil.

 

[SkepticJosh]

atheist groups have been sending out "evangelists" and staging "ask-an-atheist" events for several years now. I'm

when are you guys gonna suit up and ride around neighborhoods on bicycles, knocking on doors?

I don't see what's wrong with that. Seeing as Christians have been doing it for twice as long...

when are you going to start sending out atheist missionaries to underdeveloped countries to teach them how to deny God?
do you have some tracts to hand out?
how many forums do you have to post in before you get your atheist-scout merit badge?

Never? How does asking theists if they have any questions for and about atheists logically lead to missionarys?
Also the boy scouts ban atheists from being members so that part doesn't make any sense. I get the joke though.

are you as well received as Christians who purposefully seek out atheist websites are?

I think so. Nobody seems to have a problem with me so far except for you. And the only Christians thay aren't well received are those just trying to go to atheist sites and preqch. However Christians who come looking to talk, debate, learn, and are respectfully are actually admired greatly and never bashed. That's from my experience at least.
[/QUOTE]

 

[posthuman]

well if you're not going to start knocking on doors and or sending out missionaries to those who have never heard the news that there is no God,
why so lukewarm?
are you not firmly convinced in your faith (anti-faith)?

 

[SkepticJosh]

well if you're not going to start knocking on doors and or sending out missionaries to those who have never heard the news that there is no God,
why so lukewarm?
are you not firmly convinced in your faith (anti-faith)?

No I'm pretty solidified in my position. But is it so hard to believe some people want to just talk about stuff?

 

[Hungry]

Here's what I don't understand SkepticJosh, Christians have a divine order to spread the Gospel. What's in it for the atheist? It seems like it's nothing more than to hear yourselves share your opinion. Is there some sort of status among heathens to convert Christians. When the Judgement comes a Christian can rejoice with other believers who they shared their testimony with. When a heathen dies what does it benefit to anybody who he convinced that their is no God.

When an atheist comes to a Christian Site and tries to explain why we are all wrong, it is like a blind person trying to lead all of the seeing people into a burning building for safety. That is how non Christians appear to us, blind. Only Jesus can open the eyes of the spiritually blind to see the realm of the spiritual. I don't expect you to understand. It would be like trying to explain the beauty of a sunset to someone who only has ever seen black. I honestly do hope you humble yourself enough to admit that maybe you could be wrong before it's too late. Much prophecy has already been fulfilled regarding the last days. One day the world will see all the proof it needs, but the debate will be over and the Judgement will begin.

 

[posthuman]

No I'm pretty solidified in my position. But is it so hard to believe some people want to just talk about stuff?

it's not that; although on that note if you really just wanted to "talk about stuff" i assume you would have made a post "about stuff," not one announcing your godlessness.

but sincerely, i wanted to point out that godlessness doesn't engender the same sort of passionate urgency that godliness does. men strongly convinced of a religious truth often go to any length imaginable to disseminate that truth, but men convinced of nihilism? why bother. it strikes me as disingenuous to believe that 98% of all humans that ever lived are completely deceived with regards to such a fundamental question as "does god exist" and to raise little more than a pinky finger to spread this supposed "enlightenment" - insincere or misanthropic, one.

that knife cuts both ways - believers are constantly called hypocritical for their outwardly apathetic spirituality. is apathetic atheism of no concern?

 

[posthuman]

the overwhelming majority of all humans that have ever lived have believed and acknowledge some form of divine creator.

why isn't the burden of proof on the atheist? objectively, given the prevailing thought of humanity, it is the "outrageous proposition"

 

[Red_Tory]

No I'm pretty solidified in my position. But is it so hard to believe some people want to just talk about stuff?

Just out of curiosity, what do you think of classical arguments for theism such as Aquinas' formulation of the Unmoved Mover argument?

 

[SkepticJosh]

the overwhelming majority of all humans that have ever lived have believed and acknowledge some form of divine creator.

why isn't the burden of proof on the atheist? objectively, given the prevailing thought of humanity, it is the "outrageous proposition"

No the burden of proof lies on anyone making a claim regardless of who the majority is. If a theist claims that God exists, that is a claim that needs supporting. Atheism alone makes no claims. It's just the state of lacking belief in god. It doesn't say god isn't real. Until an atheist makes that claim (almost all do not) they do not have any burden of proof.
The burden of proof operates regardless of what is a prevailing view or an outrageous view. You claim it, you prove it.

 

[posthuman]

No the burden of proof lies on anyone making a claim regardless of who the majority is. If a theist claims that God exists, that is a claim that needs supporting. Atheism alone makes no claims. It's just the state of lacking belief in god. It doesn't say god isn't real. Until an atheist makes that claim (almost all do not) they do not have any burden of proof.
The burden of proof operates regardless of what is a prevailing view or an outrageous view. You claim it, you prove it.

you are mistaken.

"Burden of proof" or in Latin, onus probandi, is the obligation that somebody presenting a new or remarkable idea has to provide evidence to support it.

but even accepting your lax definition, since the earliest recorded times, mankind has believed in God. excavations at Gobleki Tepi even suggest that the building of monolithic religious centers predates the first cities, predates the domestication of dogs and predates farming. theism has been prevalent and universal in the heart and minds of men since their very beginning.
it is therefore the idea of atheism that is "new" and it is the godless who have the onus of providing proof. "there is a God" is an established concept in humankind; to suggest there is not is an extraordinary claim. "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (as Carl Sagan said). atheism alone is a claim: it is the claim that there is no theos. this claim is contrary to the overwhelming majority of thought in every culture and every people through all periods of history, and more than that, new to human history. remarkable with regards to prevailing thought. Copernicus didn't just tell his peers, "i don't believe the planets all revolve around the earth, so you guys better prove it" - he provided proof, as was demanded of him, because the heliocentric system was a new and remarkable claim.

what are you trying to avoid by saying "not believing in god" and "saying god isn't real" are different things? if i tell you i don't believe in the loch ness monster, is it reasonable to believe i think the loch ness monster is real? that's ridiculous. there is no distinction.

 

[Callmebadger]

Just an observation, Josh, but it appears to me that you're on another level intellectually than most. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that, like I, you're a tad bored with what this world has to offer and are seeking some sort of intellectual stimulation from us, your peers, for whatever reason. Could you even begin to tell me what that reason is?

 

[tourist]

Hasn't this dialog already been discussed at length? Let's move forward and beyond this particular conversation.