Yes, but this causes no threat to free will.
Yes, and I find this does present a challenge to free will.
No, but this does not threaten his Godhood.
No, and I find this does present a challenge to his Godhood.
Question is sophomoric / Something else entirely
Young adults and silly people: post your topics here, and respond to others.
Heaven? Hell? Good? Evil? Guilty? Innocent? All these things re becoming meaningless to me. Even in a secular way, free will is false. Scientists learn more and more every day about the physical laws of the universe and how everything works.
So. . . either we're souls with our destination already predetermined or we're extensions of a physical universe which is (by rule of cause and effect) already predetermined in its course.
I appreciate the many beautiful responses and elegant views on the subject that everyone here has offered, but I feel as though unless I can somehow view the future once again as being undecided, then I can't logically accept any higher form of justice. . .
Depends if you require "free will" to be arbitrary or illogical. I think our volition is as unobstructed as it can be, given the nature of choice.Heaven? Hell? Good? Evil? Guilty? Innocent? All these things re becoming meaningless to me. Even in a secular way, free will is false. Scientists learn more and more every day about the physical laws of the universe and how everything works.
Your dilemma WRT justice (as you have stated, at least) seems to presuppose that innocence is a possibility or that being given a "chance" is something we're entitled to.
Biblically speaking, there are no innocents. That's Romans 1-3, essentially. We're not mostly guilty, or theorhetically guilty. We're guilty. There has never been a question of our guilt.
If justice is totally applied, no one is saved. If we get "fair" treatment, we get Hell. God is not obligated to save anyone, which is why it is a gift and not something we have earned (wage). It is God's love that prompted Christ, not His justice. God's justice has never been under threat because we were never owed anything.
Choices may not be arbitrary, but they are still real. They have real consequences. Being subject to the Fall's corruption no more removes our culpability of sin than someone who is incarcerated who commits crimes even under judgement.
but since its already been said that god can change his mind, is our future always changing?
thats what im saying, in another thread people are saying that god changes his mind when we pray about certain things, so does our future change as we pray because he changes his mind....
I hope I'm getting what you're saying. If not then just hit me over the head again with the listen-stick and I'll try to read your post more thoroughly.
You got it perfectly. Thank you
P.S- Is the option of hitting you with a stick still open??
I heard a great explanation of this on the radio last Sunday (WWKB AM 1520...I think you can hear it all along the east coast of the US? Anyway, it's on at 8pm on Sundays, called, "What is Truth?"). A lady called in asking the very same question. The man who was on there said that God, in his knowledge, gave us free will--simply because he wanted us to have it. He wanted to give us the ability to choose for ourselves, even knowing what it would cost him in our short history. Why? Because he wanted a family. Israel is called the LORD's bride--the church, the bride of Christ. we are also called his children. If we weren't free, if all this was just something God orchestrated rather than permitted, we wouldn't really be much better than complex robots.
I believe He does, and I've encountered several people that say that would mess with our free will. But if you look at it kinda like in a "Back to the Future" sort of way, how one little thing changed can alter the entire future. I think God has the ability to see all possible outcomes of all possible choices. It's a little overwhelming to think about, but He's an overwhelming God, so it really all works out
Last edited by panda_girl; March 7th, 2010 at 04:17 PM.
Of course God knows the future! How could he be bound by time, which is just another aspect of his creation, as is distance? I don't see it presenting a problem to free will at all. It just makes him all the more awesome.
Think about it this way. If you were playing chess with Gary Kasparov (an awesome chess player), would you ever win a game? (The answer is no.) No matter what decisions you make out of your free will, the outcome he wants will always be the one that's brought about, because he rocks. Same thing with God.
God bless you!
I am a WHOSOEVER
I'm surprised no one has given scripture yet.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 48:3 "The former things I declared of old; they went out from my mouth, and I announced them; then suddenly I did them, and they came to pass.
Isa 48:4 Because I know that you are obstinate, and your neck is an iron sinew and your forehead brass,
Isa 48:5 I declared them to you from of old, before they came to pass I announced them to you, lest you should say, 'My idol did them, my carved image and my metal image commanded them.'
Isa 48:6 "You have heard; now see all this; and will you not declare it? From this time forth I announce to you new things, hidden things that you have not known.
Isa 48:7 They are created now, not long ago; before today you have never heard of them, lest you should say, 'Behold, I knew them.'
Isa 48:8 You have never heard, you have never known, from of old your ear has not been opened. For I knew that you would surely deal treacherously, and that from before birth you were called a rebel.
Isa 48:9 "For my name's sake I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off.
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, you are about to lie down with your fathers. Then this people will rise and whore after the foreign gods among them in the land that they are entering, and they will forsake me and break my covenant that I have made with them.
Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
Act 4:25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit, "'Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'--
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
I know the idea of a sovereign God makes your stomach turn in bitter knots. I know it did that for me at first. But then when you learn that God truly is sovereign over all he does... that you can say with Paul
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
I was gonna keep going but this one other thing might overwhelm you. So i'm just gonna pause for now.
The way I see it, God isn't confined to the realm of time. I try to think like he can see you at the same time he sees Adam and Eve. The 'future' is an illusion that we perceive because our bodies are within the physical. Besides, if the bible says God knows all AND we have free will, then perhaps it's just smoething you should believe. I'm not one to talk though, take what I say with a grain of salt.