Homosexuality

[Fidelis]

Just gonna drop this off, for the interested.

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/gen/08a/born_gay_hoax/TheBornGayHoax.pdf <--- click

That article is false, evil and based on lies, written for the only purpose to show that their own ideas and ideology are true. Just use your own mind: do you really think that there are kids thinking: hmm, let's pretend I am gay, it will decrease my chances of finding love, I will be discriminated and beaten up more, perfect! Nonsense.

 

[FSUBoy966]

In other news, New York just legalized same sex marriage...
So... Go New York?

 

[dan1el]

...is not the worst thing in the world. I'm not arguing about whether it is or not a sin, but that's all anyone wants to preach about. It's what everyone wants to blame everything on. I promise there are bigger fish to fry.

If you are of this opinion, you are utterly mistaken. Go, look at cfcindia.com -- look at ALL their basic, foundational teachings (for free); you won't find a SINGLE teaching on how homosexuality is wrong. What you WILL find are messages that are targeted at CHRISTIAN sins -- hypocrisy, dead works, etc., etc., etc.,...

You are a person who does not spend a lot of time listening to men of God speak if you are of the OPINION that you have just voiced; that is a perilous position to be in. God loves you: please seek Him while He may be found. He is a tower of refuge, and there are terrible storms coming.

 

[dan1el]

In other news, New York just legalized same sex marriage...
So... Go New York?

So, I guess "since everyone does it, its right!" Has that argument EVER been used as a standard correctly? Never.

 

[Honey12]

If you are of this opinion, you are utterly mistaken. Go, look at cfcindia.com -- look at ALL their basic, foundational teachings (for free); you won't find a SINGLE teaching on how homosexuality is wrong. What you WILL find are messages that are targeted at CHRISTIAN sins -- hypocrisy, dead works, etc., etc., etc.,...

You are a person who does not spend a lot of time listening to men of God speak if you are of the OPINION that you have just voiced; that is a perilous position to be in. God loves you: please seek Him while He may be found. He is a tower of refuge, and there are terrible storms coming.

So you are telling me that because I don't think all of the Christian focus should be on homosexuality that I'm not in a close relationship with God? I

 

[FSUBoy966]

So, I guess "since everyone does it, its right!" Has that argument EVER been used as a standard correctly? Never.

I'm for gay marriage, and I'm not gay. And I'm a VERY close relationship with God, Jesus and my girlfriend. So I honestly do not care what your opinion of me is.

 

[psymon23]

I think in this day and age a lot of you people are narrow minded. If we are all " Gods " people doesn't that include people that are homosexual? What can they be possibly doing in their own private lives to harm the likes of you?

 

[FSUBoy966]

I think in this day and age a lot of you people are narrow minded. If we are all " Gods " people doesn't that include people that are homosexual? What can they be possibly doing in their own private lives to harm the likes of you?

And finally someone brings LOGIC into the argument.

Well played, sir.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I think in this day and age a lot of you people are narrow minded. If we are all " Gods " people doesn't that include people that are homosexual? What can they be possibly doing in their own private lives to harm the likes of you?

When a Christian seeks to understand whether an action is moral or immoral, the prompt is not, "Is this physically or emotionally harmful in any way?"

Rather the prompt is, "What does God say? What does the bible say?"

To base questions of morality on harm/well-being is to promote Secular Humanism, and you leave the realm of Christianity at that point.

 

[jimmydiggs]

That article is false, evil and based on lies,

Unsubstatiated opinion. Also, being able to condemn something as evil requires an Objective Morality.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkcZ9ZSI5o[/video]

We can argue if you want, but atheism does not permit the existance of Objective Morality.

"...the whole crop of ‘New Atheists’ are softies of this kind [of atheists who believe in objective morality]. So was I, until I experienced my shocking epiphany that the religious fundamentalists are correct: without God, there is no morality.... I was struck by salient parallels between religion and morality, especially that both avail themselves of imperatives or commands, which are intended to apply universally. In the case of religion, and most obviously theism, these commands emanate from a Commander; 'and this all people call God,' as Aquinas might have put it. The problem with theism is of course the shaky grounds for believing in God. But the problem with morality, I now maintain, is that it is in even worse shape than religion in this regard; for if there were a God, His issuing commands would make some kind of sense. But if there is no God, as of course atheists assert, then what sense could be made of there being commands of this sort? In sum, while theists take the obvious existence of moral commands to be a kind of proof of the existence of a Commander, i.e., God, I now take the non-existence of a Commander as a kind of proof that there are no Commands, i.e., morality." (An Amoral Manifesto. Philosophy NOW. Issue 84)

I'll let you chose which path you prefer.

written for the only purpose to show that their own ideas and ideology are true.

Sure, that may be so. Doesn't everyone do this atleast to an extent? To completely divorce the production from the intention, seems on the verge of delusion.

Just use your own mind:

It's not "my" mind. I am a mind. If you had phrased it, "just use your brain", then I would agree with the phrasing of the request.

do you really think that there are kids thinking: hmm, let's pretend I am gay, it will decrease my chances of finding love, I will be discriminated and beaten up more, perfect! Nonsense.

Did I ever say that? I stated it was for the interested. I did not endorse it, nor did I condemn it. I did not make my view known within that post. If you can derive my views from other posts, so be it. From that one alone, it is somewhat presumptuous on your part.



Irregardless of whether a person is born Gay, Adulterous, a Pathological Liar, or any other sin. Sin, is still sin, as much as we might like to deny it. Justification of sin is easy. Facing reality isn't.

 

[Fidelis]

Unsubstatiated opinion. Also, being able to condemn something as evil requires an Objective Morality.
(...)
We can argue if you want, but atheism does not permit the existance of Objective Morality.

I do not think that christiany has an objective morality either. The morality in the bible changed. Simple example that proves it. Old testament: an eye for an eye. New testament: if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I do not think that christiany has an objective morality either.

If so, to complain about anything as a moral wrong, demonstrates that you either don't really believe what you claim to believe, or just cannot live up to the philosophical standard.

The morality in the bible changed. Simple example that proves it. Old testament: an eye for an eye. New testament: if someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

I don't really feel like retyping all of it, but I'll give you a page to look at, and a summary.


http://christianchat.com/472266-post49.html <--- click

The relevant portion of the above linked post, is in the approximately last half of the post or so.

"if one does think that we can improve upon these laws it doesn&#8217;t follow that God is changing his moral standard, only that he is holding us more closely to it. "


My anology:
Understanding the ethics of the OT vs. the NT/Jesus, is a lot like trying to understand a C vs. an A as a grade for a high school class. You still pass with a C, but it wasn't the best.

 

[psymon23]

JimmyDiggs it sounds to me that you yourself feel like you have the right to cast judgment over someones lifestyle choice and almost playing God yourself when in actual fact you do not have the right to decide what someone chooses to do in their private life. In all honesty there is no evidence to proove " God" is real or if Atheism is the actual start of man and everything else on this planet so the fact you choose to be christian is your choice and the fact some people are attracted to the same sex that's their choice. Don't judge people by what the big book says and live in the real world.

 

[psymon23]

And finally someone brings LOGIC into the argument.

Well played, sir.

I'm glad there's another person on here like me I hope more people think logically like you my friend

 

[Honey12]

JimmyDiggs it sounds to me that you yourself feel like you have the right to cast judgment over someones lifestyle choice and almost playing God yourself when in actual fact you do not have the right to decide what someone chooses to do in their private life. In all honesty there is no evidence to proove " God" is real or if Atheism is the actual start of man and everything else on this planet so the fact you choose to be christian is your choice and the fact some people are attracted to the same sex that's their choice. Don't judge people by what the big book says and live in the real world.

Well, he isn't really casting judgment, he's stating how he feels on the subject. If he's against it, he's against it.
Also
Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
So how would that be the start of man and everything on the planet?
Lastly, you do realize this is CHRISTIANchat.com, right? If you're not Christian, and don't have a desire to become one, why get on here?

 

[psymon23]

Well, he isn't really casting judgment, he's stating how he feels on the subject. If he's against it, he's against it.
Also
Noun 1. atheist - someone who denies the existence of god
So how would that be the start of man and everything on the planet?
Lastly, you do realize this is CHRISTIANchat.com, right? If you're not Christian, and don't have a desire to become one, why get on here?

Because an atheist is a person who believes in the theory of evolution. My point is that he is casting judgment and I think it's an ignorant way to be like I said apparently we are all " Gods " people and like I said people choose to be Christians and people choose to be gay both can live together and neither should be made to feel marginalized.

 

[jimmydiggs]

JimmyDiggs it sounds to me that you yourself feel like you have the right to cast judgment

I didn't know I was "casting judgement." If you would prefer that I do like the following cartoon, then shame on you. I sure hope you would stop someone from drinking poison.

1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
nor his ear too dull to hear.
2 But your iniquities have separated
you from your God;
your sins have hidden his face from you,
so that he will not hear.
3 For your hands are stained with blood,
your fingers with guilt.
Your lips have spoken falsely,
and your tongue mutters wicked things.
4 No one calls for justice;
no one pleads a case with integrity.
They rely on empty arguments, they utter lies;
they conceive trouble and give birth to evil.
5 They hatch the eggs of vipers
and spin a spider&#8217;s web.
Whoever eats their eggs will die,
and when one is broken, an adder is hatched.
6 Their cobwebs are useless for clothing;
they cannot cover themselves with what they make.
Their deeds are evil deeds,
and acts of violence are in their hands.
7 Their feet rush into sin;
they are swift to shed innocent blood.
They pursue evil schemes;
acts of violence mark their ways.
8 The way of peace they do not know;
there is no justice in their paths.
They have turned them into crooked roads;
no one who walks along them will know peace.

over someones lifestyle choice

I'm glad you agree with the bible.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

and almost playing God yourself

How am I "almost" playing God?

when in actual fact you do not have the right to decide what someone chooses to do in their private life.

Not only do I not have the right to decide for them, but rather, I am incapable of doing so. For I do not have the capacity to exert such influence over an individual.

Even God does not decide for them what they do(I'm not a calvinist), that is what we call Free Will. He does however establish what they ought to do.

In all honesty there is no evidence to proove " God" is real

I will not go into depth on this, as I do not wish to digress too far from the topic at hand.

The below are scanned images of argument maps from William Lane Craigs book "On Guard".


Argument From Morality
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video008.jpg <&#8212; click
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video009.jpg <&#8212; click

Kalam Cosmological Argument
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video002.jpg <&#8211; click
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video004.jpg <&#8212; click

Fine-Tuning of the Universe
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video006.jpg <&#8212; click
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video007.jpg <&#8212; click

Leibniz&#8217;s Cosmological Argument
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video005.jpg <&#8212; click
http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae281/135thAB/video004.jpg <&#8212; click


Here is a debate if you would like. It is one among many.
YouTube - &#x202a;Debate - William Lane Craig vs Christopher Hitchens - Does God Exist?&#x202c;&rlm; <--- click

or if Atheism is the actual start of man and everything else on this planet

so the fact you choose to be christian is your choice and the fact some people are attracted to the same sex that's their choice.

I don't make my choice flippantly as you seem to imply, and I don't think the homosexual does either. It seems to me that in the question of cause of homosexuality, this implies that you take much more radical position than any Christians I've ever met who says that homosexuality is not genetic, or not of biological cause in it's ultimate foundation.

Don't judge people by what the big book says and live in the real world.

Quoting reality to you, isn't judging. If you would prefer that I stand idly by while the lemmings march to the sea, then that is your personal preference. However, an Objective Moral standard and God's commands compell me to do otherwise.

He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation

If there is something you feel I have not satisfactoraliy responded to, please point it out.


Also, be careful about bring objective morality in the backdoor. Atheism doesn't permit this either. Protesting my supposed judgement, implies that you find something morally reprehensible about doing so, which implies your belief in Objective Morality.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I'm glad there's another person on here like me I hope more people think logically like you my friend

I would say logical absolutes is another reason to believe in God, based on the Transcendental Argument for the Existance of God. I won't defend nor argue for it in this thread, but rather refer you to some pages.

The Transcendental Argument for the Existence of God | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click
Answering the Transcendental Argument for the Non-Existence of God | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <-- click
An answer to a refutation of the Transcendental Argument | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click
A response to a third and fourth attempt to refute the Transcendental Argument | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry <--- click

 

[psymon23]

Jimmydiggs it's clear to me you are a delusional character who doesn't really know what's he's talking about but instead spouts parts of the bible and hasn't expressed an opinion based on your own personal views but just what "God" thinks so actually who's the lemming diving of the cliff here?

 

[jimmydiggs]

Because an atheist is a person who believes in the theory of evolution.

According to webster...

Definition of ATHEISM

1
archaic : ungodliness, wickedness

2
a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity


Atheism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary <--- click

Also, while I do not endorse the view, one can maintain the Inspiration and Inerrence of the bible, while maintaining a belief in evolution. My view is similar, I believe in both Naturalistic Evolution, and Young Earth Creationism via Instrumentalism.

That may seem contradictory, and I may have to explain it, however, I would prefer not to digress too far from the OP, homosexuality.

Instrumentalism: A Third Option <--- Instrumentalism

Amazon.com: Scientific Representation: Paradoxes of Perspective eBook: Bas C. van Fraassen: Kindle Store <--- A book on the matter if you want.

My point is that he is casting judgment and I think it's an ignorant way to be

1) How am I judging?
2) What's Objectively wrong with that anyway? (since you imply it is)

like I said apparently we are all " Gods " people and like I said people choose to be Christians and people choose to be gay both can live together and neither should be made to feel marginalized.

There are many people who choose some sort of way of life, yet we still marginilize them from society. Let's atleast be honest here. It's not the marginilization that you don't like, but rather, the Christian view of homosexuality.

However, I agree with you on one aspect. I don't care for marginilization either.

Definition of MARGINALIZE

transitive verb
: to relegate to an unimportant or powerless position within a society or group
Marginalize - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary <-- click

I also do not see where Christianity promotes doing so. Judaism, yes... it sure does, but Christianity I can see no reason to believe it does.