Sex and marriage

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Feb 19, 2010
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#41
Yeh. I know exactly where I'd be. I wonder if you do considering you asked the question. Or do you think I can't have committed my life to Christ just because I actually have thoughts and opinions that differ from the general opinion? God did give us free will and the power to invent and think. I am using the things he gave me. Who can stand in judgement of me for this (would be very unchristian)?
As for your answer, I do not believe (seriously doubt) that anyone who knows God is "pro-choice": knowing God, and knowing ABOUT Him are two separate things -- so, I differ with you on that.
God is the One who GIVES LIFE -- who gave life to the baby -- so, now He is changing His Mind, and asking you to KILL the baby? Rather, I would think, He asks that you sacrifice of YOURSELF, in order to uphold His Ruling and Decree (that life be born). I have heard of women who have been raped, and had the baby.

This is the same as saying that someone who is homosexual does not know God -- and we would warn them for their own good, which is what we desire for others, because we care. I, personally, would seriously doubt someone truly knows God -- I would warn you, in love, as Scripture commands us.
 
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MissCris

Guest
#42
I just wanted to add to bounce off or add to what you said here.. We've been talking about abortion here as though it's a quick fix and as though it has no consequences. But the way I see it.. If the raped person aborted the baby.. Sure, the won't have that 9 month reminder that she was raped.. But instead! She'd always have to live with the flashbacks and the mental issues that come with that sexual abuse AND the guilt of killing her own child. If she puts it up for adoption (open or not) there is a chance she'll get to see that child and eventually apologize and maybe have a relationship with her offspring. If she aborts it.. She will NEVER EVER get to have that chance.
I totally agree, and that adds nicely to what I've been trying to say- you just said it better.
 
Aug 27, 2005
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#43
As much as I'd like to put my thoughts and opinions here, I feel I would be shouted at. I don't see anything wrong with sex before marriage. It's a personal choice. I also have many reasons why sex doesn't really equate to love in my eyes. I don't regret not saving myself for marriage. I don't know of any part in a Christian wedding where the bride and groom are to say that they have remained pure. God knows our individual sins and we are already forgiven for them. He knows the mistakes we've made and the ones we are going to make. I think it's a personal choice, and I'd never disrespect anyone's beliefs, but I don't like mine being disrespected either.
I find it interesting how often 'God's Law' is quoted in regards to sex before marriage but so many other things are ignored.
Is there anyone who, at some point, hasn't felt jealous of what others have? It's amazing how many Christians there are that will buy a pirated DVD, download films, kill an animal (as far as I am aware, you shall not kill didn't specify humans) but will be horrified that another Christian will have sex, or even sexual contact, before marriage.
God's Law changed quite a bit Old to New Testament. There isn't anything to prove that it hasn't changed over the last 2000 years. I prefer to follow Jesus as I feel I am being told to, rather than by following God's Law as written by man and translated many number of times. Yes, the basics of the bible are true. Jesus died on the cross for us. But the words that were said were not written down at the time and may well have been lost in translation.

On the abortion issue - I'm usually against it. But life isn't black and white. Someone said God's Law isn't grey, it's black and white. But that was before Jesus. When Jesus came, he made it grey. He forgave those who had sinned. People who stole and were other criminals were forgiven by Him. If it were to be black and white, then if you sinned, you'd be out of heaven. At the time the bible was written, things like contraception hadn't been invented.
I think it's wrong to use abortion as a form of contraception. I don't know where I am on the issue if the pregnancy was forced. Someone said the woman should carry the baby to term and then put it up for adoption. Sometimes I'd agree, and others I wouldn't. Of course the child hasn't done anything wrong, but she hasn't either. If the baby were to put her life in serious risk, well...it's a grey area. Or how about a nine year old girl who gets pregnant. Should she be expected to have a nine month pregnancy?

There are exceptions to rules. Almost everything is grey. So many people say "well if I were in that situation, I wouldn't get an abortion" but they don't know until they're in it.

I just wanted to state my opinion. I respect the beliefs of everyone here, and I won't tell you that you're wrong. You aren't. But I don't think I am either, so if you're going to shoot me down, please do it respectfully.


Rosi
I understand that God knows the outcome.. But like you say a few times in here.. We do have the choice to follow in Jesus' footsteps. We have the chance to make the right choices. And it almost seems like (I could be wrong obviously) in the part bolded.. That you believe that since Jesus died for our sins already... That we can continue to do whatever we want that is sinful and wrong... Because He's taken care of it and since we believe in Him we're going to heaven no matter what. And that's not what I've come to believe...
 
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Bobbyking

Guest
#44
Hi

I have three wonderful daughters, and I teach them in this approach. When God forbids premarital sex (or any other instructions in the bible), it is essentially to

1. Protect us (sexual diseases, unplanned pregnancy, emotional distress, physical abuse)
2. Bless us (long term physical enjoyment with the man they commit to, wholesome privacy and no unnecessary past sex experience to affect their intimacy)

Of course, it is easier said than done. They have friends (Christians and non-Christians) who rush into relationships, jumping from one guy to another guy, and worst of all, live life as though relationship with a guy is the only thing that matters in their age (teens).

I do not have a minimum age that they should start looking for lifelong partners. However, together with my wife, we encouraged them to strengthen their individual lives first:

1. Grow in the personal relationship with Jesus
2. Make lots and lots of wonderful and godly friends of the same sex
3. Discover their strengths and skills to be successful in this life (secular and spiritual)
4. Enjoy their singlehood life!!!

And help them to trust God for the future partner to connect with them eventually.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#45
All life is sacred, and in the case of human life Protestant theology mirrors the Donum Vitae in that: ‘It is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.’
 
Feb 9, 2011
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#46
I disagree. I'm not married but have been having sex with the same man for a few years. I am also not christain so I guess this does not apply to me.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#47
Christian church discipline doesn't apply to you because you are not a Christian but you are accountable to God for the choices you make with your life just as we all are.

I disagree. I'm not married but have been having sex with the same man for a few years. I am also not christain so I guess this does not apply to me.
 
Feb 9, 2011
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#48
Is God stupid? Shouldnt he know the difference between a silly piece of legal paper, and true love? "Marriage" is a metaphor for love so to speak. It doesnt exist in the confines of a silly piece of paper that can be ripped up. It's not some court document. If God exists and if he has a brain I sincerely hope he's not that crazy.... Marriage means aboslutely nothing. Emotions mean everything. You don't need some judge or priest to tell you that you love someone.
 
Aug 18, 2011
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#49
Is God stupid? Shouldnt he know the difference between a silly piece of legal paper, and true love? "Marriage" is a metaphor for love so to speak. It doesnt exist in the confines of a silly piece of paper that can be ripped up. It's not some court document. If God exists and if he has a brain I sincerely hope he's not that crazy.... Marriage means aboslutely nothing. Emotions mean everything. You don't need some judge or priest to tell you that you love someone.
Ahh Miss misanthropic your back haven't seen you in a while. Back for another kick at the kitty?:p
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#50
Hey Leelee,
Thanks for your reply; we are to be instructed in living by the Father -- I pray He leads you into all understanding, as He is very able to do. I trust Him.
Stop being so patronising please, and read Exodus 21:22-23.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#51
Just for the record... abortion has existed since the beginning of humanity. In the time that the bible was being written it was rife and yet nothing was specifically said. I find this interesting.
I also find it interesting that you seem to think the morning after pill is the same thing. It really isn't. I know many wise people totally committed to Jesus who are absolutely pro-choice.
I personally think that the refusal to see other points of view will be peoples downfall. I wonder if people have bothered to actually think about it or have simply decided to form opinions based on what they think others feel they should think.
And lastly I personally don't agree with abortion as a contraceptive, I also do not agree with the morning after pill as a contraceptive however I do believe people have the RIGHT to use their God-given free will and decide what is best for their situation.
I have been genuinely shocked by how unbending and judgmental people on this site are. Jesus said to become all things to all men in the hope of saving some. Where is that? All the people here want to do is boast about how good they are and condemn everyone else. That's not a good christian and it is not in the spirit of Jesus. Oh yeh, its all done sweetly with may God bless you but at the end of the day its not really coming from a good place. You can't see yourself as above people, you are not in heaven yet.
 
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Maddog

Guest
#52
I feel like sticking my oar in.

Just for the record... abortion has existed since the beginning of humanity. In the time that the bible was being written it was rife and yet nothing was specifically said. I find this interesting.
'Nothing was specifically said'...where? Forgive me, I'm just not sure what your point is here.

I also find it interesting that you seem to think the morning after pill is the same thing. It really isn't. I know many wise people totally committed to Jesus who are absolutely pro-choice.
Well, I won't question the fervency of their committment to our Lord, but I might be sceptical of their wisdom.

I personally think that the refusal to see other points of view will be peoples downfall. I wonder if people have bothered to actually think about it or have simply decided to form opinions based on what they think others feel they should think.
If you're advocating listening to others' viewpoints, it might be helpful if you show your opponents some common respect; chiefly, by presuming that they hold their opinion in good faith and that there is at least some reasoning beind it. By the same token I think our real downfall is to dismiss those who have different opinions as idiots (some of them may be, but let's try and be charitable, eh?)

And lastly I personally don't agree with abortion as a contraceptive, I also do not agree with the morning after pill as a contraceptive however I do believe people have the RIGHT to use their God-given free will and decide what is best for their situation.
I've been thinking about this topic long enough to realise something. As far as I can tell, the only pertinent question is whether or not the being growing inside a woman as a result of the fusion of a sperm and egg is a human being - a person. If you can accept that many people, for good reason, believe that it is indeed a human being, then you should be able to understand why they believe there really is no justifiable reason to deliberately kill them.

If you're on the other side of the fence, and don't think it's a human being, then it makes sense that you think it's disposable (but frankly, if it isn't a person, I don't see why abortion cannot be used as contraception).

For my part, reason tells me that it is a human being from the point of conception onwards. I can understand people being unsure either way, but I find it difficult to understand how anyone can claim with certitude that it is not a human being. And let's be honest, if you're prepared to kill it, you have to be pretty damn sure it isn't a human being. My question, to any who care to answer, is: from whence does this certitude come?
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#53
From a Biblical perspective, murder precedes abortion.

Abortion is the loss or expulsion from the womb of a living foetus before it has reached the stage of viability. Many abortions occur spontaneously (miscarriages), whereas others are deliberately induced.

It is the latter which is the focal point of theological and ethical debate and I'll be using that latter definition for the rest of my post.

Certainly abortion happened in the ancient world. John Riddle, in 'Eve's Herbs: A History of Contraception and Abortion in the West'provides credible documentation of abortion and how it happened in the ancient pagan world.

But contraception and abortion were not as widespread in antiquity as the feminist movement has argued. Child abandonment was actually more frequent than abortion (e.g., Quintilian Inst. Orat. 8.1.14; Juvenal Sat. 6.602–9).

Part of the reason was because ancient physicians and others disliked abortion and pagan ancients debated whether the embryo was a person just like today and therefore whether or not abortion should be legal.

The reality is that most people in the ancient Mediterranean world felt that marriage was the norm. Early Rome required Romans to marry and rear their children (though a child was not accepted into the family until the father accepted the child).

Most young women reportedly longed for marriage and tomb inscriptions underline the tragedy of dying unmarried. It was also tragic for young men to die unmarried.

From a Biblical perspective, the chief theological ground for a strict anti-abortion stance is the conviction that every human being is made in God’s image (e.g. Imago Dei) from the time of conception (cf. Gn. 1:27).

Life-taking, like life-giving, is God’s prerogative, and man needs a special mandate to end any human being’s physical existence. Permission to kill is given by Scripture in carefully defined circumstances as a response to injustice (specifically murder and war, cf. Gn. 9:6; 1 Ki. 2:5–6), but no fetus has done anything to deserve the death penalty. Abortion, therefore, can be argued to be murder.

That said, the Roman Catholic Church (which is otherwise implacably opposed to abortion) allows for a pregnancy to be terminated, under the ethical law of ‘double effect’, when a procedure intended to save the mother-to-be’s life (such as hysterectomy for cancer) results in the death of the fetus.

Secondly, some Protestant theologians argue that the fetus is a potential person, rather than an actual person. Plausible though this theory sounds, it does not easily square with the Bible’s stress on personhood and human continuum.

Thirdly, and most radically, Christian situationists contend that love alone must dictate the decision whether or not to abort in a particular case. Compassion for the woman (if her life or health is threatened) or for the unborn child (if he or she is likely to be born deformed or defective) may dictate the ending of a pregnancy. Furthermore, they argue, because love must always choose the maximum benefit for the greatest number, abortion may be indicated when the baby is unwanted by the family, by society—or, for that matter, by an overcrowded world.

The problem with this view is that nowhere does the Bible teach that love replaces divine principle or overrides divine law. Nor does the Bible support their utilitarian assumption that the best actions can be calculated by counting heads.

The Bible does not specifically mention the word abortion, but it teaches that the unborn are persons and that abortion is wrong because it is killing an innocent human being (e.g. murder).

Just for the record... abortion has existed since the beginning of humanity. In the time that the bible was being written it was rife and yet nothing was specifically said. I find this interesting.

I also find it interesting that you seem to think the morning after pill is the same thing. It really isn't. I know many wise people totally committed to Jesus who are absolutely pro-choice.
I personally think that the refusal to see other points of view will be peoples downfall. I wonder if people have bothered to actually think about it or have simply decided to form opinions based on what they think others feel they should think.

And lastly I personally don't agree with abortion as a contraceptive, I also do not agree with the morning after pill as a contraceptive however I do believe people have the RIGHT to use their God-given free will and decide what is best for their situation.

I have been genuinely shocked by how unbending and judgmental people on this site are. Jesus said to become all things to all men in the hope of saving some. Where is that? All the people here want to do is boast about how good they are and condemn everyone else. That's not a good christian and it is not in the spirit of Jesus. Oh yeh, its all done sweetly with may God bless you but at the end of the day its not really coming from a good place. You can't see yourself as above people, you are not in heaven yet.
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#54
I find it interesting that it does not mention abortion specifically because it has no issues mentioning other things such as the way people should dress, if they should drink and various other aspect of life. It seems to me that the people (yes people) who wrote them perhaps were unsure themselves. I have prayed about this and God has never given me any indication that abortion for the right reasons is wrong.
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#55
It's not suprising because the Bible is not and was never meant by God to be an ancient vocabulary dictionary. The word for "abortion" may not be found in the Bible but the concept is taught therein.

Consider that the following are words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned:

1. Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1).(see atheism)

2. Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.

3. Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).

4. Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).

5. Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).

etc...
I find it interesting that it does not mention abortion specifically because it has no issues mentioning other things such as the way people should dress, if they should drink and various other aspect of life. It seems to me that the people (yes people) who wrote them perhaps were unsure themselves. I have prayed about this and God has never given me any indication that abortion for the right reasons is wrong.
The Bible doesn't mention the word Rodenticides either. Do you think the Bible condones giving people Rodenticides to murder them simply because the word isn't specifically mentioned in the text? Of course not, the Bible specifically forbids murdering people. Enough said.
 

lil_christian

Senior Member
Mar 14, 2010
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#56
I find it interesting that it does not mention abortion specifically because it has no issues mentioning other things such as the way people should dress, if they should drink and various other aspect of life. It seems to me that the people (yes people) who wrote them perhaps were unsure themselves.
All Scripture is inspired (God-breathed) by God...how could someone be "unsure" if God was giving you His own word(s)?
 

leelee

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2011
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#57
so where in the bible does it say, for example, the unborn must be born? where does it say; the woman must have the child no matter the consequence?
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#59
To the thread title: the two are mutually inclusive.

I'll let Sinatra explain.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwoRMAC461A[/video]
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#60
so where in the bible does it say, for example, the unborn must be born?
So if the bible doesn't mention something specifically, it's permissible, irregardless of clear principles?


I have a feeling you would say Genocide is morally wrong, however, if you have a verse that says, "thou shalt not commit genocide" that's news to my ears/eyes.

If the bible were to give us specific answers to every little specific question, it would be he size of the library of congress.


When it comes to matters of "is this a sin?" often it's a matter of principles.