Abortion

[kewl42]

abortions are never done after 6 months. this is for a good reason; before 6 months, the baby is not much of anything. It does not feel, it does not breath, it does not hurt, it can't feel pain, it can't think. at this stage in its development, it is but yet a forming cluster of cells. nothing is working yet. in fact, the heart does not beat until the baby is born, when the muscles in the heart wall close off. until then, the mother's heart beats for the child. before 6 months, the glial cells in the brain have not yet finished directing the formation of the body after 6 months, then the baby is firmly moulded, and just has to develop a bit more, before that, the baby is like a car in an auto shop, without all the parts in it, or a car on an assembly line, it's not "alive" until you put gas in it and make it go. an abortion is just ceasing the construction of an as yet unfinished project.

[Dogma]

Consider this scenario:

A women gets impregnated by her boyfriend. Her boyfriend soon after leaves her (which happens to be very common among teenage pregnancies). A few weeks later the women finds out that her pregnancy is Ectopic. The embryo is in good health, but if she carries it to term, she will suffer profound physical damage and even run the risk of death. If she lives, the women would likely suffer from permanent physical disabilities and will have to quit school to take care of her child in poverty. She has the option of getting an abortion within the first month of pregnancy - should she do it?

Before you answer, consider the scenario and all of the problems presented.
1) There are severe social inequalities embedded within the assertion that women shouldn't be allowed to chose to get abortions. Why can't a women repudiate parenthood as easily as a man can? Why do men get to have any say in this at all? Are men socially superior to women?
2) On one hand we have a person who holds vast knowledge and life experiences; who has the capacity for deep understanding and profound emotions. On the other hand, we have cell cluster who's capacity for knowledge and emotion is no doubt any greater than that of a tadpole.

[jimmydiggs]

Better yet, is there even a right action and a wrong action?

[Khorib2]

Forced miscarriage (ie. abortion) is condoned in the bible if a woman is suspected of sex outside of wedlock. It also looks like the bible's method also often kills the woman as she is forced to drink filthy water contaminated with animal feces and various bacteria/microbes. Apparently the Bible feels the innocence or well being of the child doesn't matter if the child was conceived in sin.

Numbers 5:11-31

[Romansonetwentytwo]

Originally Posted by kewl42

abortions are never done after 6 months. this is for a good reason; before 6 months, the baby is not much of anything. It does not feel, it does not breath, it does not hurt, it can't feel pain, it can't think. at this stage in its development, it is but yet a forming cluster of cells. nothing is working yet. in fact, the heart does not beat until the baby is born, when the muscles in the heart wall close off. until then, the mother's heart beats for the child. before 6 months, the glial cells in the brain have not yet finished directing the formation of the body after 6 months, then the baby is firmly moulded, and just has to develop a bit more, before that, the baby is like a car in an auto shop, without all the parts in it, or a car on an assembly line, it's not "alive" until you put gas in it and make it go. an abortion is just ceasing the construction of an as yet unfinished project.

This has to be the worst and incorrect argument for abortion that I've ever seen. So is all murder then ceasing construction of an unfinished project?

[Brandon777]

Originally Posted by leelee

And yet literally nothing new is ever said. These are not discussions really, it is certain people standing judging others for making a choice.


James 4:11-12

Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

People are supposed to judge others based on their choices! Would you like anarchy? Because that would be the world we live in without people judging other people on their choices.

We're discussing ethics here. Choices have consequenses. We're not just talking about a choice, we're talking about the consequenses of choices.

Another thing that should be said is that planned parenthood and other abortion agencies say they're pro-choice, for the woman to have a choice, but in reality they only push for what will give them profit, an abortion. They don't help with adoption or sonograms which could steer a woman away from abortion.

[LewisD]

Let me say that it is 100% false that the embryo is apart of the woman's body. Yes it is dependent and attached, but it has separate DNA and thus is a separate human being with a separate set of cells. It doesn't take a genius to know that a person that starts out small is still a person.[/quote]

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. A human embryo starts out as an egg in the mothers ovaries. Thus a single cell of the mothers. It requires fertilization from the man's sperm. This creates a mixture of both the mothers and fathers DNA. Therefore it's still half the mothers. Also what would you define as a person. For me it means, an independent unattached organism that has thought. Embryo's don't have thought and their entire life processes are guided by genes not their nervous system. Also they are entirely dependent on another for life.

[Brandon777]

Originally Posted by LewisD

Let me say that it is 100% false that the embryo is apart of the woman's body. Yes it is dependent and attached, but it has separate DNA and thus is a separate human being with a separate set of cells. It doesn't take a genius to know that a person that starts out small is still a person.

I'm sorry but this is incorrect. A human embryo starts out as an egg in the mothers ovaries. Thus a single cell of the mothers. It requires fertilization from the man's sperm. This creates a mixture of both the mothers and fathers DNA. Therefore it's still half the mothers. Also what would you define as a person. For me it means, an independent unattached organism that has thought. Embryo's don't have thought and their entire life processes are guided by genes not their nervous system. Also they are entirely dependent on another for life.[/quote]

Actually it's a mixture of the mother's and father's RNA, not DNA. An egg and sperm are haploid cells not diploid cells. Unique from other cells in the body in that they only carry half of the chromosomal makeup. When the two rna are mixed, it creates a new combination genome, not simply a half and half genome. Embryos do have thought, do your research. "They are entirely dependent on another for life." You use the word "they" correctly.

[jesusnme]

i dont like the arguement that it the egg was 'tiny' or 'not developed' because obviously if not aborted the baby would be born and would be given the gift of life. it will be a human with feelings, and experience love and happiness and everything life brins. it is no ones choice to abort a pregnancy just because theyre 'not ready' for a child. i hate that phrase. sex is for procreation....you cant just 'get rid of' your child. totally goes against nature.

as far as when its a danger to the mother etc and developing countries.... I heard 40% of abortions are in devoloping or poverty stricken countrries. well obviously different story , they dont want the child to be born and starve to death but they shouldnt have had sex then.

I heard there are 42 million abortions a year - obviously the majority is just selfish decisions and these need to be stopped!

I may come across as judgemental and rude but im really not, it just breaks my heart that 'abortion' is even something we do ... it doesnt make much sense to me.

[Shafary]

I agree with you, but I guess the question is now that we know this, what are we doing to help women to take a different decision. We can keep talking about this, but we need to get involved and with love, compassion and faith get involve to have different results.

[Elizabeth619]

I have to honestly say I am repulsed by many posts on here, and shocked that so many are uneducated about the issue.

At the moment of conception the unborn has human characteristics. It's DNA has already determined it's eye color, hair color, gender, and so on. The child may be just a clump of cells at that point, but it already has a soul(God said I knew you in the womb). It is living, and growing. Yes, the unborn is dependent on the mothers body, but it is NOT part of the woman's body. It does have it's own DNA, and will later on thrive outside the womb. The mother is just the incubatior. The unborn, even at the moment of conception IS human.

Also, whoever said the baby's heart doesn't beat until the child is born is wrong. The heartbeat actully forms in the embryotic stage of pregnancy. The unborn has a heartbeat near the end of the first month of pregnancy. This I know for a fact. I heard my own son's heartbeat BEFORE he was born. It wasn't my heartbeat. My heart doesn't beat in my uterus.

Another thing, I don't care if a baby is a result of rape, incest, or has a mental or physical disability. THEY ARE NO LESS OF A HUMAN!!!! No one should be killed because they are "less than normal" What is normal anyway?
I could have a car accident today, and lose a leg.... JUST KILL ME! I am no longer NORMAL!

Anyone who terminates a pregnancy for those reasons is selfish. Even in rape and incest. Bad things happen to people all the time. It is life. Harsh I know, but a baby is a blessing, and to feel your child grow and move inside you is the best feeling a woman could ever have. I have had many tragedies in my life so maybe I should just shoot myself because I didn't like the outcome. How ridiculous does that sound? Thats how I feel when someone chooses abortion.

And.......... FORNICATION. I saw a few posts were some say it is ok to abort a child out of wedlock, and falsy backed it up with scripture. I am a single mother. My child was born out of wedlock. I had unprotected sex and got pregnant. I also asked God to forgive me. I am pretty sure he did. Now I am blessed with a beautiful child who will turn 10 this month. He is the best thing that happened to me, and for anyone to think fornication is a good escuse to murder........ That is saying that MY child should be DEAD. Let me tell ya... that is not something you should ever say to a mother, because I would KILL and DIE for my son in a heartbeat!!!!

I have also seen an actual video of an early abortion. The baby was not even the size of my pinky. At first I saw a little blood, then something was comign out of the cervix. It was a leg. Dismembered from the rest of its body. With a perfectly formed foot attached. Then its little hands, and arms. Then the other little bloody leg. Last of all was the torso. This THING already had a heartbeat, arms, legs, toes, and fingers.

To watch a chidl be dismembered like that is horrifying.

Also, in late term abortions, they will delever all of the fetus but the head. You will see a headless baby come out of the mother. If the head is still attached it is crushed.

Not at all a pretty site.

Finally, before you comment on such a contreversial topic study up on it. I suggest start with the bible.

[violakat]

Originally Posted by FrankensteinGirls

I disagree that it is acceptable or right to out law abortion, yes it is a tragic thing and no it shouldn't be used as birth control, but it should be between the man and woman who are having (or not having) the baby. Why does everyone always concentrate on the babies rights, when does the mother who will have to carry the child rights begin and end?

Why do we only focus on the mother's rights? What about the Father's right to keep his child. (And no I don't include rapists in this question.) They also deserve a chance to get to know their on child. Lest we forget, in most cases of pregnancy, it takes to people to willingly have sex, not one. And yet, only one is often considered fully responsible, by the world, and only one has rights. The fact is, no one says a child has to be raised by his parents. The child can be adopted.

[violakat]

Originally Posted by FrankensteinGirls

The bible may be a Christian's guidelines, but not everybody is a Christian, a law should not be put into effect based on religious beliefs. Also, I've never known someone who felt almighty after having an abortion, it is a sad and hard decision to make.
I also feel if abortions are outlawed that would just cause more back alley abortions, and be further risk to women's health.
If you don't want abortion, don't have one.

I know that a lot of people think that the most talked about research suggests that abortions does not harm the mother. But most research done by organizations that encourage the right for abortions, usually stop only after a few months, a year at the most. However, there are some places that have done the researched and analyzed the effects abortions causes on women years later. What they have found is there is a higher chance that women will not be able to have pregnancies, or will develop ectopic pregnancies, then women who do not have abortions.Also, there is a higher chance of severe depression or some other mental illness. Not to mention, that abortion is just as dangerous to a woman's body if not more, as pregnancy. Surgery is surgery, and poses all types of risk, not matter what kind, including allergic reaction. The same with chemical abortions, they also pose risks with reactions. And, if a child dies in the womb and is not completely removed (Chemical birth abortions), the woman will more then likely become severely sick and possible die within a matter of days, from infections.

[Brandon777]

Originally Posted by kewl42

abortions are never done after 6 months. this is for a good reason; before 6 months, the baby is not much of anything. It does not feel, it does not breath, it does not hurt, it can't feel pain, it can't think. at this stage in its development, it is but yet a forming cluster of cells. nothing is working yet. in fact, the heart does not beat until the baby is born, when the muscles in the heart wall close off. until then, the mother's heart beats for the child. before 6 months, the glial cells in the brain have not yet finished directing the formation of the body after 6 months, then the baby is firmly moulded, and just has to develop a bit more, before that, the baby is like a car in an auto shop, without all the parts in it, or a car on an assembly line, it's not "alive" until you put gas in it and make it go. an abortion is just ceasing the construction of an as yet unfinished project.

You were that age once. Would you think it okay to end your life when you were that small?

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by Brandon777

You were that age once. Would you think it okay to end your life when you were that small?

I would not have been cognizant of my existence...

[jimmydiggs]

Originally Posted by Dogma

I would not have been cognizant of my existence...

I guess someone killing you now wouldn't be that bad a deal according to your criteria, right? You wouldn't exactly be cognizant of your existance after you are dead, assuming of course an atheistic view of death.

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by jimmydiggs

I guess someone killing you now wouldn't be that bad a deal according to your criteria, right? You wouldn't exactly be cognizant of your existance after you are dead, assuming of course an atheistic view of death.

The same way that one couldn't be cognizant of their existence before they have a developed nervous system.

[jimmydiggs]

Originally Posted by Dogma

The same way that one couldn't be cognizant of their existence before they have a developed nervous system.

I'm just checking to see if you are consistant.


Is it okay to kill someone if they are not cognizant?
Is it okay to kill someone if they will not be cognizant after death?

[Dogma]

Originally Posted by jimmydiggs

I guess someone killing you now wouldn't be that bad a deal according to your criteria, right? You wouldn't exactly be cognizant of your existance after you are dead, assuming of course an atheistic view of death.

And your assertion of an "atheistic view of death" is completely fallible, and based from a common point of ignorance among theists. Atheism, by definition, deals exclusively with the claim of a God, and contains no binding dogmas such as those of monotheistic religion. As a matter of fact, there are many atheists who reject the theory of evolution on the grounds that the chemical reactions that must have occurred to produce such genetic mutations are too complex to have occurred in nature; there are atheists that believe in an afterlife based on the principles of quantum mechanics (information is never lost, etc); there are even atheists who believe in extraterritorial creators as opposed to a divine creator(s).

Please please please make sure that you are informed on a subject before throwing out blind assertions.




Dogma

[Sweetbird]

if I got an abortion id do it before the baaby could feel pain. for all I know that child is my next life. anyway, do unto others as ya do yourself. i possess little knowledge of fetal suicide.