"Feminism"

[Nattmaran]

I just now saw this. Wished I'd seen it earlier. In modern times, there are so many people who think that the Bible teaches oppression of women. But what they don't know, is that the Bible actually sets laws up in the OT to protect women from the oppression of many men.

For example, the divorce were written because many men would throw a woman away and verbally divorce her. And when she would become the wife of another man, the former husband would then accuse her of adultery and because she had no proof, and the man was generally believed in some locations, she was stoned. As a result, the letter of divorce was created so women would have some proof for protection.

I agree that there are parts in the bible where women are given some protection.

But there are also many parts in the bible where women are clearly pushed down. Everywhere from Genesis where God clearly states that a woman should be ruled by her husband, to laws on how to sell your daughter as a slave (of curse, worth less than a male slave), that a women that is raped have to marry that man (which is of course vile) and nice little quotes like:

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

So... I would say that most women on this community could have their opinions discarded as soon as they started to speak up and come with own ideas.

To me it is clear that the bible was written by men in a primitive age with slavery and oppression. Sadly (but naturally) the bible was stained with these views. Anyone that listen to the gospels as well as pray to Jesus finds that this is not the way God intend things.

I think, if the situation had been reversed and woman was the dominate gender, that God would dictate laws to protect men, just as He does to protect women.

Yes... it would be like that. And then men on this forum would speak about how they are treated unfairly and that they want equal rights and most women (and many of the men) would say "Read the bible... that is the law... now submit"

But then... I would be on the side of the men and say "Hey... the bible is just stained in the matriarchal age it was written in."

Or... perhaps I would just enjoy being in power so much that I would point on the bible and taking pleasure in knowing that the men are supposed to serve me...

 

[Jullianna]

I would go by the book and say:

Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. In addition, feminism seeks to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment.

I am shocked to read that some people here actually believes that feminism is that women should have dominance over men. That we should have a matriarchy instead of a patriarchy. That women should oppress men instead of how it is now.

Feminism is the strive for equality.



I have no general idea about this "movement" since I think that feminism should be in every part of society. But of course I support that females becomes priests just as men. The church I now attend have a female priest.

We need more women in high positions so that we don't get an all male dominated control and view on how society should be like.



I say it again: Feminism is a collection of movements aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

I don't see how that have anything to do to Lilith and Kabbalah. I think that Lilith has become a strong symbol for the feminist moment because she resisted, what she saw as, oppression. But Lilith do not have any real connection to Christendom as far as I know. She is mentioned in the bible in one location and it is very unclear what her part is there.



Of course you can. Just because you think that women should have equal rights as men does not make Jesus love you any less.

I think that all women and all men should be feminist and strive for a more equal world since equality has proven a good thing for all - except for those who have to share power of course.

I am happy to say that Sweden is a country that strives hard to make the society more equal (even if there is a long way to go). Gender equality: The Swedish approach to fairness - SWEDEN.SE

What is the name of the book that completely defines feminism and the absolute boundaries thereof? (The dictionary's definition was extremely limited in this regard)

 

[Jullianna]

How do we know with absolute certainty that Lilith is a myth and not the demonic presence she is described to be in other ancient cultures and some present day occult groups? Why has she become the symbol of feminist movements around the world? What is the difference between a feminist and an extreme feminist?

 

[Nattmaran]

What is the name of the book that completely defines feminism and the absolute boundaries thereof? (The dictionary's definition was extremely limited in this regard)

There is no "book on feminism" as the bible or something similar. It is a movement of many minds that have come together when women started to ask themselves why they where oppressed and everyone took it as natural.

There is for example no book that says "slavery is bad".

That definition I took was from wikipedia - I think they did sum it up well. But if you are going to read feminist books here is a list of feminist authors:

Andrea Dworkin

Simone de Beauvoir (read "The second sex)

Lucy R. Lippard

Jennifer Baumgardner manifesta

But you can find feminist ideas in many books. Read Jane Eyre by Charlotte Brontë. It was a huge controversy when it came and have many interesting views on how the victorian woman was de-sexualised and imprisoned in mind, body and home.

So... there is a lot to read.

Wikipedia is a good starting point: Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nattmaran]

Why has she [Lilith] become the symbol of feminist movements around the world?

Well this is in Jewish mythology... But the reasons are (as I see them).

1. She was created at the same time as Adam. They where both equals.

2. She did question Adam and when they had sex she did not want to be beneath him but on top (or perhaps just change positions).

3. She was very powerful - because she spoke the hidden name of God and got extreme powers and then left Adam in the Garden of Eden and made her own home by the Red sea. God sent angels after her but she did ignore them.

So to sum it up. She is created at the same time as Adam. She refuses to submit to him and she was "strong and independent".

Eva was then created by Adams rib as a substitute for Lilith. She was meek and kind and fooled by a snake. So... I can see why Lilith is a popular symbol. But I do not count her as a part of Christianity.

What is the difference between a feminist and an extreme feminist?

Well... I would say that extreme feminists feels hatred towards men and find them to be violent and dangerous and that they feel that women should rule instead of the men.

You know... just as there are extreme christians that think you should shoot gay people, stone people that have sex out of wedlock and things like that. They are few... but they exist... sadly.

 

[Jullianna]

I read the Wikipedia thing before I made this thread out of curiosity (not that I'm suggesting Wilkipedia should ever be considered a reliable academic source), have read many books on the topic over the past 24 years, and studied/wrote a paper on the topic in college.

As you, I have found no absolute boundaries thereof. I have been seeing the word "feminist" thrown around liberally in these forums and was curious as to how much was actually known about it.

 

[Nattmaran]

As you, I have found no absolute boundaries thereof. I have been seeing the word "feminist" thrown around liberally in these forums and was curious as to how much was actually known about it.

Well... the word is often used of people that don't know the meaning.
But when it comes to Wikipedia I think that the article about feminism is good and well written.

But you can always look it up in a dictionary: feminism n - definition in American English Dictionary - Cambridge Dictionary Online

 

[Jullianna]

Well this is in Jewish mythology... But the reasons are (as I see them).

1. She was created at the same time as Adam. They where both equals.

2. She did question Adam and when they had sex she did not want to be beneath him but on top (or perhaps just change positions).

3. She was very powerful - because she spoke the hidden name of God and got extreme powers and then left Adam in the Garden of Eden and made her own home by the Red sea. God sent angels after her but she did ignore them.

So to sum it up. She is created at the same time as Adam. She refuses to submit to him and she was "strong and independent".

Eva was then created by Adams rib as a substitute for Lilith. She was meek and kind and fooled by a snake. So... I can see why Lilith is a popular symbol. But I do not count her as a part of Christianity.

Well... I would say that extreme feminists feels hatred towards men and find them to be violent and dangerous and that they feel that women should rule instead of the men.

I am aware of the alleged hebrew "myth", but I'm also aware of her appearance in occult practices. For one who is considered a "myth", those are some pretty definite statements you've made.

You know... just as there are extreme christians that think you should shoot gay people, stone people that have sex out of wedlock and things like that. They are few... but they exist... sadly.

I am aware of those things, but they are not the subject of this thread.

 

[Jullianna]

Well... the word is often used of people that don't know the meaning.
But when it comes to Wikipedia I think that the article about feminism is good and well written.

But you can always look it up in a dictionary: feminism n - definition in American English Dictionary - Cambridge Dictionary Online

"Well written" and accurate are not synonymous, are they?

As I said, I did consult dictionaries earlier today, and, as I said, they were extremely limited when compared to those I found on the sites of several organizations using the title.

I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks! I hope others find it helpful.

 

[Nattmaran]

I am aware of those things, but they are not the subject of this thread.

But you asked "Why has she become the symbol of feminist movements around the world?"

So it was that questions I answered.

I am aware of the alleged hebrew "myth", but I'm also aware of her appearance in occult practices. For one who is considered a "myth", those are some pretty definite statements you've made.

What do you mean definite statements?

I am only pointing at the things that make the mythological figure of Lilith into a feminist symbol.

I have no insight in occult practices or something like that and I must say that I have not read any feminist literature that mentions Lilith in an occult way. Most feminists authors I've read are either christian or atheists.

 

[Brandon777]

I believe that women should have equal opportunities in work and education and should be respected and loved dearly. I do think the Bible gives us clear roles to play as far as leadership goes, but that should never turn into abuse.

 

[Nattmaran]

I do think the Bible gives us clear roles to play as far as leadership goes, but that should never turn into abuse.

I must say... I wonder if not the world would be more of a peaceful place if it had been run by women when you have in mind the violent tendencies of men.

 

[Ugly]

I must say... I wonder if not the world would be more of a peaceful place if it had been run by women when you have in mind the violent tendencies of men.

There we go. True modern feminism. Women can do it better than men because men are bad by nature. Never declared but always implied.

 

[Brandon777]

I must say... I wonder if not the world would be more of a peaceful place if it had been run by women when you have in mind the violent tendencies of men.

That's sillyness. Women are just as corrupted as men. Wars and conflict would still abound with women in charge. Sin is irrespective of gender.

 

[violakat]

There we go. True modern feminism. Women can do it better than men because men are bad by nature. Never declared but always implied.

In general, women tend to be less violent the men. I think it's just the way we are wired.

I must say... I wonder if not the world would be more of a peaceful place if it had been run by women when you have in mind the violent tendencies of men.

However, just because women do tend to be less violent, doesn't mean we won't become violent. Someone in a FB page said that if women ruled all the countries, there would be no war, but there would also be a lot of countries that would not talk with each other. Meaning, we are just as bad in our own way. We women, it seems do tend hold grudges longer then men.

 

[Brandon777]

In general, women tend to be less violent the men. I think it's just the way we are wired.

I'll attest to that.

However, just because women do tend to be less violent, doesn't mean we won't become violent. Someone in a FB page said that if women ruled all the countries, there would be no war, but there would also be a lot of countries that would not talk with each other. Meaning, we are just as bad in our own way. We women, it seems do tend hold grudges longer then men.

Good point.

 

[Nattmaran]

There we go. True modern feminism. Women can do it better than men because men are bad by nature. Never declared but always implied.

LOL... it was meant as a joke...

Are you seriously afraid that the women will take over the world and you men are going to be forced to stay at home with the children

And I do not think that men are bad by nature (according to the bible women are more sinful it seems). Sure, we know that testosterone make you more angry. But much of that is a social construction as well. Men are more violent because they are sort of raised that way.

Boys are little fighters, girls are little princesses.

 

[Bornfromabove]

Men and women are equally sinful and corrupt.... just in different ways. For example, men are more likely to be serial killers and women are more likely to murder their own children.

 

[MrHonest]

"Well written" and accurate are not synonymous, are they?

As I said, I did consult dictionaries earlier today, and, as I said, they were extremely limited when compared to those I found on the sites of several organizations using the title.

I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks! I hope others find it helpful.

I found this conversation interesting. I meant no harm with my opinions.
I have never read any books regarding sexism. I've only read articles & topics regarding the oppression of women & womens' rights.

 

[Jullianna]

I found this conversation interesting. I meant no harm with my opinions.
I have never read any books regarding sexism. I've only read articles & topics regarding the oppression of women & womens' rights.

There was nothing offensive in your statements. I was just curious as to how christians perceived this issue. From what I'd seen in some other threads, it didn't appear that some folks saw the big picture.