"Feminism"

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violakat

Guest
#41
There was nothing offensive in your statements. :) I was just curious as to how christians perceived this issue. From what I'd seen in some other threads, it didn't appear that some folks saw the big picture.
Jules, I think, from what I've seen in life (and this is just my opinion) that men to view Feminism as a threat because of some of the more modern feminist movements. While women tend view Feminism as a life saver, because of it's past accomplishments. What we all forget is that there can be both good and bad elements in all civil rights movements. The good is when it accomplishes equality in life, meaning both groups are allowed to live in freedom and without fear. The bad is when the oppression goes from one side to the other. Then their is no equality.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#42
Just a few random thoughts..

Using extremism as an explanation of a thing makes me scratch my head and see rabbits to chase. Skinheads are extremists. Terrorists are extremists. Does that mean that racism and/or believing that all infidels should die are okay as long as you aren't shooting people or blowing them up?

God has made it clear from the scriptures, both OT and NT, that He expects men to cherish, honor, respect and protect women. Any man who chooses to do otherwise will be held accountable to Him. He has also set an order in place, which, when examined closely, gives vision into our relationship with Christ. Who am I to tell the God of all creation that He's doing it wrong?

There have been discussions of testosterone and violent tendencies, but cyclical raging hormones in women have been enough to cause entire tribes of men to evacuate islands. :D

Regarding the occultic Lilith tie, it can be easily googled; but I've never been one to encourage anyone to spend much time researching demonic entities. However, godly wisdom doesn't ignore them either.
 
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Jullianna

Guest
#43
Jules, I think, from what I've seen in life (and this is just my opinion) that men to view Feminism as a threat because of some of the more modern feminist movements. While women tend view Feminism as a life saver, because of it's past accomplishments. What we all forget is that there can be both good and bad elements in all civil rights movements. The good is when it accomplishes equality in life, meaning both groups are allowed to live in freedom and without fear. The bad is when the oppression goes from one side to the other. Then their is no equality.
I believe absolutely in standing against oppression and injustice. While I do feel that there are times when women need to stand together and call a wrong thing wrong (such as the sexual mutilation of young girls in some cultures), I also feel that there are times when it can do damage, as I feel it has to the home and family. Again, that's just my personal opinion.
 
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Relena7

Guest
#44
I think there is a way for men to be in charge without the men looking down on the women as less worthy of being taken seriously and less worthy of respect than the men.

I wonder if God said for women to submit to their husbands because God knows we are better manipulators ;) and didn't want us to completely take away the man's usefulness in the long run (muahaha).

Man and women are designed to be a team, not a wrestling match against one another. Feminism seems like a protest or boycott almost, saying "hey, we deserve to have freedoms, too!" Once that is done with and the respect and equality is earned, there's little need for feminism. It just creates hostility.

As for myself, I can say I am glad for whatever women fought for the right to choose to wear pants instead of just dresses. Because I hate dresses. :p
 

Nattmaran

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
Mar 31, 2012
291
0
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#45
I think there is a way for men to be in charge without the men looking down on the women as less worthy of being taken seriously and less worthy of respect than the men.
Sure... and there is ways for women to be in charge without men being less worthy.
If you want to take it to the extremes that one gender should rule the other.

(and this is still a joke... I want it equal... okay)

I wonder if God said for women to submit to their husbands because God knows we are better manipulators ;) and didn't want us to completely take away the man's usefulness in the long run (muahaha).
:) Well... we can be more manipulative I guess. But... the reason is of course that the bible was written by men.

Man and women are designed to be a team, not a wrestling match against one another.
I so do agree!!!

Feminism seems like a protest or boycott almost, saying "hey, we deserve to have freedoms, too!" Once that is done with and the respect and equality is earned, there's little need for feminism. It just creates hostility.
Of course you are right. When we live in a 100% equal society then there is no need for feminism... but sadly there is still a long way to go.

As for myself, I can say I am glad for whatever women fought for the right to choose to wear pants instead of just dresses. Because I hate dresses. :p
Yup.. and that took years of struggle. We so easily forget the struggle behind things we take for granted.
 
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violakat

Guest
#46
The Bible may have been written in man's hand writing, but it was dictated by God.

Here are some interesting facts. According to Archaeology, the Bible is one of the most accurate books that exists. In fact, it is so accurate, that when they go and start looking for things in the Biblical lands, they use the Bible as one of there main sources. God is an equal opportunist. Men were not the only ones used by God to do great things. Just look at Esther. Then there is Deborah and Jael, both who story is found in the book of Judges, beginning about chapter 4. Another thing, most books that were written by historians of that time did not usually include the shameful parts of their history, and in fact, many historians don't do that today either. The Bible does.

So, when you consider all this, men do not have the final say of what's in the Bible, God does. Therefore, when the Bible says that a woman is to submit herself to her husband, it is not man saying it, but God. But you have to remember, it doesn't just stop with submitting. It goes on to say that men are to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. If a man does not love his wife the way Christ does loves the Church, (and this is in regards to abuse, infidelity, and things along this line), women do have the right to leave the marriage. Because the Husband has broken his vows to cherish her. And likewise.

A lot of people look at submission like it's a bad thing. But lets look at it from a different angle. Say there are two people who are partners in a major business. They both have equal say in what happens. One day, the partners are trying to decide on what to do on an issue. One partner wants to do it one way, and the other another way. Well, because neither is willing to compromise, or to give up their way, they come to a gridlock, and work ceases. Soon, the business fails and the men have to file bankruptcy. All of this would have been avoided if there had been away for a tie breaker, such as one man owning 51% of the business and the other 49%, or one person choosing to give up his desires.

In a marriage, if someone does not have the final say, the marriage itself can go into a gridlock, and divorce may occur. While wives submitting does not necessarily eliminate divorce, it does prevent a lot of headaches. It does not mean that men do not consult their wives on all major issues. But that men have the final say. And, it also means that in the end, the man has the greatest responsibility on all decisions made.
 
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kayem77

Guest
#47
What is your definition of "feminism"?

What is your definition of "feminist theology"

What are your thoughts on the ties between feminism and Lilith/the Kabbalah?

Can a woman be a christian and a "feminist"?

I didn't read all the past responses so forgive me if I repeat something that was already said. :)

Personally, I am very thankful that I can vote, I can work, I can study, and I can do pretty much a lot of things centuries ago women couldn't do without being discriminated.

My point of view on this is that the original movement was maybe necessary, not sure if biblical, but necessary at some point. I read a little about the American Revolution and how the colonists were wondering if rebelling against England would be disobedience to Romans 13 (the chapter which talks about obeying authorities) and it got me thinking about pretty much all the Revolutions that have happened around the world .

The truth is that, if more men had stood up for women centuries ago, the Feminist Movement wouldn't have been necessary...and don't take me wrong, I'm not bashing men, but I also don't like it when some people say that the women who started all this were just trying to usurp men's position.
At first, the goal was to end discrimination and I think every Christian should be against discrimination, regardless of if we are talking about women, children, slaves,etc.
Now Feminisms looks more focused on erasing gender differences and form a Unisex, which I think it's wrong and antibiblical, but I'm not sure if I would condemn the pursue of equal rights by which it started.

The Bible says: Men love your wives and Women submit to your husband. It doesn't say ''Men make your wife submit to you, and lord over her'' or ''Women wait until your husband proves himself to be worthy of your respect and then submit to him''. From the first wrong interpretation Feminism started and from the second wrong interpretation Feminism kept on and added new and antibiblical goals.

According to Wikipedia Feminism is movement that divides itself in various movements seeking for equal rights for women in different areas like economy, politics and society.

While I agree that those things are good, I wouldn't call myself a Feminist, just someone who is Christian and thus understands that every human being is made after God's image and that God likes when we submit to one another and love one another, considering our brothers and sisters better than ourselves. That erases every hint of abuse and to some degree I could be considered one, I don't know.
I just don't agree with the actual usurping of men's position in society and women wanting to be men and saying there is no difference at all between men and women.

Conclusion: Christianity would have solved Feminism because it stands by the sole principle of love where there's no place for abuse. This world is stupid....why can't they see Christ is the answer for everything? :)

PS. I don't know what Lillith is..I will research about it later.
 
Jul 25, 2005
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#48
Feminism is the absolutization of the female sex within a socio-political movement that embraces largely far-left tenets.

Feminist theology is one's reading of the Bible according to this ideology.

I didn't know there was a tie and find it interesting. What I did know is that there are arms of the feminist movement who have tried worshiping goddesses or "the goddess."

By my definition a woman or man cannot be both a Christian and a feminist. One can choose to be more liberal in their outlook concerning gender roles; I think the Bible gives some leeway for that. But a feminist? That is like asking if one can be both Christian and Communist or both a Pepsi drinker and a Coke drinker.
 
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Jenesis

Guest
#49
I personally do not believe that Feminism is compatible with Christianity. I am also pretty tired of people saying that Christianity oppresses women. Jesus Christ adores women and has always championed them. I feel treasured by God and not in any sense oppressed or made to feel I am substandard.
 
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Bornfromabove

Guest
#50
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

I would say that if a man isnt a believer or a Godly man then a woman would not have to submit to him, because Christ is not his head, and therefore he forfeits the right to be the womans head. I think that most good Godly women would not mind submitting to a good Godly man. The problem is when you are dealing with an ungodly man who wants to abuse his authority and use it tyrannically to oppress a woman.

I dont think a man should stand in front of a woman or behind a women, but stand beside her.....but when most men and women stand side by side, the man stands taller :)
 
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Relena7

Guest
#51
God put humans in charge of the earth to do with it whatever they wanted. That resulted badly, didn't it? :p Now they are trying to protect the forests and raise awareness of thinning animal populations, and encourage people to be more eco-friendly. You wouldn't necessarily say that by doing that, they are trying to put the earth first over people, would you?

:) No, you wouldn't. They just want to restore the beauty of earth as it once was.

I see feminism as an ego-driven version of that, but it doesn't need to be. They want to restore the inner beauty that women have to share with the world in the way they do best, without it being belittled or disrespected or seen as lower or less important and not deserving of choices. In the best of the best intentions, that is how I look at what feminism should be about. Not about either side being better or worse.
 
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violakat

Guest
#52
Let me ask this question, would you consider Susan B Anthony to be a feminist? What about Louisa May Alcott? Around the time they lived, women were not allowed to vote, hold property or keep their earnings if they were married. Those who remained single often struggled to survive, unless they were able to live with their parents. Many women were not allowed an education. Most didn't get a chance to go to college. And, as I stated in an earlier post, women were often treated as property that could be bought or sold to another man. If the man died, an unborn child could literally be taken from the mother the minute it was born, and given to the Guardian whom the father designated. The Women's Suffrage movement, which is a form of the Feminist movement, worked to change this. It was also originally against abortion. Shocking isn't it. We associate abortion with the Feminist movement and yet the original Feminist actually worked to abolish abortion. This is a direct quote from Elizabeth Cady Stanton: "When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit." This was actually the true beginnings of the feminist movement both in the US and Canada. Any woman, during this time period, who championed for woman's rights are indeed feminist in the original sense.

Yes, it is true, that most modern feminist have taken a step too far and have twisted the original mission of the earlier feminist. Instead of being happy with gaining the right to work, the potential to earn the same salary as men for the same type of jobs (although, in the US this is not necessarily so, unless it's a specific type of job, such as teaching), being allowed to vote, get an education, having property, and raise their children, many now wish to be able to dress how they wish, and expect men to not lust after and have the attitude of I can do what I want, when I want. (Hmm, this somehow seems to be the attitude of most people now, not just the modern day feminist.) Some have even gone so far as to be power hungry. But that is the modern feminist movement, and I believe that the vast majority of the feminist of the 1880's would have been horrified at seeing this.
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To give you another example, is every Christian movement and organization truly good? No, they are not. We've seen the effects of the Lord's Resistance Army in South Africa, or Anders Behring Breivik- who supposedly, in the name of the organization Knights Templar (I do not believe this is the one associated with the Catholic organization, but a modern rouge one), was standing up for the rights of all Norwegians, Scandinavians, and Europeans, when he murdered about 77 people last summer, against multiculturalism and Islam itself. And then here, in the US, we have the Westboro Baptist who protest outside of the funeral of soldiers, all because they believe the soldiers are fighting for gay rights. So, even in Christianity, we have those who claim to do things in the name of Christ, and yet commit atrocious crimes.
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And, I like I said in another post, God is an equal opportunist. He will use both men and women to accomplish His purpose. In no way does God oppress women. Instead, it is the hardness of men who have tried too. Just like it is the hardness of women who have rebelled against God, and tried to usurp the position God has placed men. God, however, does not believe in oppression. And when we look at the reasons for many of the Mosaic laws, we understand why they were put in place. It was to give us a chance to live in peace and freedom, not to be in bondage. And that was the purpose of the Woman's Suffrage movement: to make sure women had a chance to live in peace and freedom. It was never about trying to take the man's place.

I personally believe that the reason that the Feminist mindset has change from the original mindset, is not because women want power, but that they have been taught, from the time of their birth, that they can do what they want without consequences. And you know who has taught them this. The blame in this instance does not fall wholly on the mothers. It falls on everyone. We all believe we can sin and get away with it. We blame our sins on how we were raised or not raised instead of taking responsibility. We are lenient on those poor little dears who grew up motherless, so no wonder they want to kill all the women. Or we pity those who come in to another nation illegally, because their own nation is so horrible, and well, we treat them unjustly by insisting that they come in legally, when it's the same illegals who commit murder and push drugs, while those who come in legally are treated like criminals, even though they are the ones who more then likely try to live a moral life. I will grant, not everyone who enters illegally is a drug pusher or murderer, nor is everyone who enters legally living a moral life. But the point I'm trying to make is we allow everyone to get off scot-free and as a result, we now have a nation that believes it's okay to do whatever you want.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#53
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Jullianna

Guest
#54
Politics is one of the aspects of my work that I never really cared for, but was required to be heavily involved in; though I find it an interesting topic otherwise. I do vote; but, more importantly, I understand that, ultimately, it is God who puts those in authority as HE wills, not as I will, for the betterment of all (Romans 13:1). So, for me, it is more important that I spend time in prayer for wisdom for those in authority (as we are called by scripture to do), whoever they may be and whether I agree with them or not. If we could look down through history with spiritual eyes, I wonder whether we would discover that the changes we see today benefitting women as a whole were more the result of women on their knees in prayer/ raising godly men to become those in positions of authority (as Moses was), than women carrying picket signs.

Everything I have, do or ever will have comes from God. What He expects from me is my obedience, so I simply work very hard at the tasks He’s given me to do without feeling the need to usurp His or any man’s authority. I have learned that to do otherwise simply increases my stress level and sets me up for failure.

I would rather God raise up the men of this planet to be godly men who will protect and cherish women as God has ALREADY called them to do, and stand with them in an encouraging way as they learn. It touches my heart deeply when I see men do this, not only because I know it will greatly improve situations for women and children FAR more than women themselves could ever bring about; but because I know God will hold men accountable who do NOT do these things as He has called them to do. This is far more powerful and productive than any rally I could ever attend or goofy logo I could stick on my car or webpage, which in many ways I’ve seen to be counterproductive, as it usually causes men to close their ears/minds and batten down the hatches.

I suppose that those who have been in leadership in the women’s movements have "made great strides" as I’ve heard it said for those who feel this is important, but it’s not something I’ve ever paid much heed to because there have been women throughout history (including biblical history) who have made a difference simply through their OWN hard work, persistence and integrity. It didn’t have to be legislated. To me, that’s genuine success. I want to accomplish whatever good I can in this life, obtain a job and be respected because I work my behind off and am good at what I do. I don’t want anyone to feel they owe it to me just because of some piece of legislation or sense of obligation because I am woman.
Maybe I feel this way because I have seen women hired in my line of work who expected to be able to fill token positions, while shirking their duties. A lot of the "I am woman, hear me roar" types I’ve worked with have been just that…all roar. When the bullets started to fly or they were called to roll around in the blood/guts/mud, they were suddenly helpless (even to the point of hyperventilating into paper bags) and wanted the guys to handle the majority of the load. I’ve also seen this very thing cause men to take unnecessary risks with their own lives to protect such women, who would not have felt the need to do so had those officers been men or women they could rely upon, and who weren’t thrust upon them by legislation or departmental policies. A lot of people don’t like it, but it’s the truth. If I’m going to do the same job for the same pay, then I oftlineneed to DO the SAME job for the same pay…ALL of it.

Confident, capable women don’t need their value to be legislated. If it’s handed to me on a silver plate, it’s worth no more than the value of the platter.
 

Nattmaran

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
Mar 31, 2012
291
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#55
The Bible may have been written in man's hand writing, but it was dictated by God.
Yes that is said for every holy book there is. And you know, just because it is written in a book does not mean its true. In that way every religion would be true.

Here are some interesting facts. According to Archaeology, the Bible is one of the most accurate books that exists. In fact, it is so accurate, that when they go and start looking for things in the Biblical lands, they use the Bible as one of there main sources.
The bible is filled with historical facts about lost kingdoms and things like that. I do not doubt that for a second and I know that when they searched for Babylon the used the bible as a reference.

But... there also many things that the bible got wrong when it got to archeology, history and when things happened (and it they happened). If you want me to I can find you some facts to compare.


A lot of people look at submission like it's a bad thing.
I don't say it is. As long as you want to submit. So if a man want to submit for his wife he should, and if she wants to submit to her husband she should and if they want to be exactly equals they should.


In a marriage, if someone does not have the final say, the marriage itself can go into a gridlock, and divorce may occur. While wives submitting does not necessarily eliminate divorce, it does prevent a lot of headaches.
Sure... and if men submit to the wives and does what the wives tell them to do it would be a lot less headaches.

It does not mean that men do not consult their wives on all major issues. But that men have the final say. And, it also means that in the end, the man has the greatest responsibility on all decisions made.
Yes... and that was written more 2000 years ago by talibans.
 

Nattmaran

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
Mar 31, 2012
291
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#56
By my definition a woman or man cannot be both a Christian and a feminist. One can choose to be more liberal in their outlook concerning gender roles; I think the Bible gives some leeway for that. But a feminist? That is like asking if one can be both Christian and Communist or both a Pepsi drinker and a Coke drinker.
Can you be a capitalist and a christian?
 
V

violakat

Guest
#57
I agree, women should not expect to be given a job and demand she be paid the same as a man who's been doing the job for 10 years, if she has never done it before. Nor do I believe that women should slack off in jobs. But as for legislation, because there are a lot of people who will abuse power (and I'm including women in this as well), we do have to have something in writing stating that their are consequences for your actions. You murder someone, you will go to jail, and quite possibly be put to death. You steal, your going to jail. You speed, your getting a ticket. And while, it's not always the right thing to try and legislate morality, in fact, it's sometimes impossible (although that doesn't stop someone from trying), when we do try and legislate it, we have to consider the good of all.
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In regards to the earliest Women's Rights Movement, if all they did was just picket, then I think things would have gone slower. In fact, we might still be living in a time where when were still traded as commodities. But, a lot of it was also education. Educating people about what was going on. Making them more aware. And yes, you're right, there was a lot of prayer involved. But how do you know that God didn't chose a woman to show what was going on? What if that was God's plan to make people aware of the issues through a woman. Or what if the person God originally chose was a man who said no? After all, God has done that in the past, given a gruesome job to a woman, when the man refused. But then again, maybe the women did overstep their boundaries. Maybe God had already placed in motion a plan and the women went with their own agenda instead of God's. However, we don't know that, and we never really will. The fact is, God is not one who is to be placed in a box. He calls whom he calls, be they male or female.
 

Matthew4Jesus

Senior Member
May 7, 2011
258
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#58
Women being treated badly, and beaten by their husbands = bad
Women Submitting to their husbands = good
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Feminism is not a Godly theology, it was a kickback against unfair treatment. It is now all for equal rights and more, however, Males and Females have different roles, it's biblical. Females may not want to submit to their husbands, but maybe the husbands equally do not want to be the breadwinner. I strongly disagree with feminism.

"Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord." -- Ephesians 5:22

For women, please read this -- A Woman's Place
It explains how Jesus in a way, liberated women. :)

God Bless xx
 

Nattmaran

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
Mar 31, 2012
291
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#59
But then again, maybe the women did overstep their boundaries. Maybe God had already placed in motion a plan and the women went with their own agenda instead of God's. However, we don't know that, and we never really will. The fact is, God is not one who is to be placed in a box. He calls whom he calls, be they male or female.
Amen! I agree with you.
 

Nattmaran

Banned [Reason: ongoing "gay Christian" agenda and
Mar 31, 2012
291
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#60
I agree, women should not expect to be given a job and demand she be paid the same as a man who's been doing the job for 10 years, if she has never done it before. Nor do I believe that women should slack off in jobs.
This has noting to do with the gender. Same for men and women of course.