Left with questions

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darwindiva

Guest
#21
They simply did not go from "Jesus is a real person" to "Jesus was just a figment of my imagination."
If belief in God to not believing in God was a short duration trip, then I have to say, that person never
believed from the beginning. If it was a long term act, I have to wonder, why did God let this person
get this far gone? His ways and thoughts are higher than our ways and thoughts, but when you get
to the point of not believing in God at all, you are in a very difficult place to leave.
Again, it was not an overnight thing. I always loved jesus since I was very very young. I loved church and the bible. I was never rebellious. I wanted to please god. Some of you are implying that I couldn't have really been a true christian if I can go from devoting my whole life to god to saying that he isn't even real. I do understand how ridiculous that seems but it was not a sudden thing. In the years that my faith began to slip and life had taken a "job" turn for me, I stayed fervent in my faith for a long time. I cried out and prayed many many many nights. I tried everything I could. And after so long I began to doubt and lose hope that god would help me. Christians were treating me like I had surely done something to deserve god's wrath. They did not care that I spent every moment I could praying and focusing on god. They only saw the aftermath. I can see how it can be so easy to judge but I ask that you please don't. It's been a long journey for me but i'm happy with where it led me.
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#22
Hello darwinidiva, I hope you're still checking out this site. I don't know how my answers will compare to the others, I may be able to add some information to theirs.



It comes down to the intent of the author. I can't add more than that.



Jesus may not have mentioned them, but that doesn't mean they're unimportant. Jesus started the New Covenant (New Law, as you call it), but God didn't talk solely through Jesus. God also spoke through the apostles, including Paul. Let's look at the topics themselves.



I would suggest that part of the reason was to show just how hideous and deadly sin is. Sin separates us from God. Sin and perfect holiness cannot exist in the same place. Blood symbolizes the life of an organism, and by requiring blood sacrifice God showed that through sin, we lose our life spiritually, that is to say, we die spiritually. Jesus's death, which covered all of man's sin, is particularly grotesque. The beatings and wounds he received before being put on the cross shows just how disgusting and shameful sin really is.



As I said earlier, God (who is perfectly holy) cannot and will not be in the same place as sin. In addition, there's no guarantee that just because someone sees God they will come to faith. There are those who are so skeptical that they'll try to explain it away. In addition, we need to remember that God doesn't just want us to say "I believe God exists," he wants us to love him. Sure he could visually reveal himself to us, but that doesn't guarantee people will love him. If anything, it will scare them and they'll become Christians out of fear, not love. That's why Jesus didn't point his finger at the sun and throw it around the sky to prove himself to be God incarnate.

And while he may not have revealed himself tangibly, he has in other ways. I'd encourage you to look up Christian apologetics. Apologetics is the defense of the faith using reason. In my readings I've found there are many ways we can see it's reasonable to believe in God. Apologetics315 is a good website. Look up terms like cosmological argument, teleological argument, and moral arguments. There's also the resurrection of Jesus, which has yet to be proven false, and indeed the New Testament is one of the best preserved ancient documents there are.

I probably didn't answer that very clearly. Feel free to give follow-up questions.



Yes, unfortunately they are wrong.

I think there's a bit of error in your reasoning here. Not every Christian (or Muslim, or Buddhist, or Shinto, etc.) has been taught from birth what to believe. I was raised in a household with no religion, and was myself an atheist until I was 16. Are there Christians in my family? Yes, but in more recent generations of my family it's less prominent. Although there's a Christian influence in my family, it's not necessarily a family belief anymore.

Now, is Christianity a personal truth, but nothing more? I'd disagree. The Bible - and most significantly, the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus, the core of Christian faith - has very good reason to call itself the absolute truth. In terms of archaeology and history, the Bible has not shown itself wrong and is in fact used by historians. We have thousands and thousands of ancient copies of the Bible, either fragments or entire parts, and it's been preserved with 95% accuracy. Most of that 5% inaccuracy? Spelling errors and other writer mishaps that are easily pointed out. The Bible is hardly hokey-pokey (I feel so old for saying that). I could go on, but when you consider the evidence, Jesus's words of "I am the truth" is surprisingly credible.
Thank you for your answers :D
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#23
I tried everything I could. And after so long I began to doubt and lose hope that god would help me. Christians were treating me like I had surely done something to deserve god's wrath. They did not care that I spent every moment I could praying and focusing on god. They only saw the aftermath.

I will be back to hopefully ask some more questions.
That attitude has been pretty much my experience with most Christians, too.

Still hoping you can formulate more questions.
 

Stuey

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2009
892
4
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#24
I feel like I have also seen this attitude, it is really sad. :(

Someone made a comment to me that few people leave the church because of God, more because of Christians hurting them.

I am wondering how true this is.
 
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Dec 5, 2012
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#25
Don't be discouraged Some of us are here to discuss topics and not to Judge. I like you questions because in searching for the answers my eyes open up a little more every time. God does not hate you or has sent his wrath upon you. If he had sent his wrath upon you, you would not be here. He told us to love one another. He did not say only Love those who believe the way you do, and curse the rest.
 
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spirit1st

Guest
#26
We All dwell in weak flesh ! It nature is sin full ! It only desires to pleaee it self ! Our spirit once Born -Again has the same nature as our Creator !
We are all a spirit being dwelling a short time in weak flesh !
listen there was more too it than just this little planet ! All of heaven was watching to see how God could save rebellious manking ! The Price had to be great !

GOD MUST keep HIS own Word !
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#27
I feel like I have also seen this attitude, it is really sad. :(

Someone made a comment to me that few people leave the church because of God, more because of Christians hurting them.

I am wondering how true this is.
It's probably pretty true. It becomes a contest for them...who can be the most holy. They judge others and cut people down in the name of god to exalt themselves. Very sad.
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#28
Don't be discouraged Some of us are here to discuss topics and not to Judge. I like you questions because in searching for the answers my eyes open up a little more every time. God does not hate you or has sent his wrath upon you. If he had sent his wrath upon you, you would not be here. He told us to love one another. He did not say only Love those who believe the way you do, and curse the rest.
You are very christ like. Thanks!
 

GOD_IS_LOVE

Senior Member
Mar 16, 2009
306
4
18
#29
Again, it was not an overnight thing. I always loved jesus since I was very very young. I loved church and the bible. I was never rebellious. I wanted to please god. Some of you are implying that I couldn't have really been a true christian if I can go from devoting my whole life to god to saying that he isn't even real. I do understand how ridiculous that seems but it was not a sudden thing. In the years that my faith began to slip and life had taken a "job" turn for me, I stayed fervent in my faith for a long time. I cried out and prayed many many many nights. I tried everything I could. And after so long I began to doubt and lose hope that god would help me. Christians were treating me like I had surely done something to deserve god's wrath. They did not care that I spent every moment I could praying and focusing on god. They only saw the aftermath. I can see how it can be so easy to judge but I ask that you please don't. It's been a long journey for me but i'm happy with where it led me.
I'm sorry for the trials you had to face in life. Sometimes it can get too much for someone to bear. However, you losing your trust in God completely is not a good thing. From what I understood, you were disappointed by God's seeming lack of response to your prayers. Ever thought that His answer may have been "No"?
God is not obliged to grant our every request. He is above everything and He has plans we know nothing of. Remember Job from the Bible? He was also a faithful man and very bad and unexpected things happened to him for no reason apparently. But behind the scenes, there was a different story. So he got mad at God and God did not get upset with him because of that. However, Job did not lose the belief that the Creator existed and that justice would be made someday.
To expect to go through this life without trials is unrealistic (although some people seem to have an easier ride, while others may go through unbelievable trials sometimes). To expect that God would jump in and change things always is also unrealistic. Because He has a higher purpose. That of changing our hearts. So He'll allow whatever it takes for that to happen.
So I agree with the others that said there must have been something missing in your experience with God before. Because once you feel His real touch on your life, I don't think you can go to completely denying His existence. You will be mad at Him, turn away from Him maybe, but in your heart you'll never be able to deny His existence because that would be lying to yourself. But I guess that's an option too...
I pray that God will guide you, protect you and open the eyes of your heart. <3
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#30
I'm sorry for the trials you had to face in life. Sometimes it can get too much for someone to bear. However, you losing your trust in God completely is not a good thing. From what I understood, you were disappointed by God's seeming lack of response to your prayers. Ever thought that His answer may have been "No"?
God is not obliged to grant our every request. He is above everything and He has plans we know nothing of. Remember Job from the Bible? He was also a faithful man and very bad and unexpected things happened to him for no reason apparently. But behind the scenes, there was a different story. So he got mad at God and God did not get upset with him because of that. However, Job did not lose the belief that the Creator existed and that justice would be made someday.
To expect to go through this life without trials is unrealistic (although some people seem to have an easier ride, while others may go through unbelievable trials sometimes). To expect that God would jump in and change things always is also unrealistic. Because He has a higher purpose. That of changing our hearts. So He'll allow whatever it takes for that to happen.
So I agree with the others that said there must have been something missing in your experience with God before. Because once you feel His real touch on your life, I don't think you can go to completely denying His existence. You will be mad at Him, turn away from Him maybe, but in your heart you'll never be able to deny His existence because that would be lying to yourself. But I guess that's an option too...
I pray that God will guide you, protect you and open the eyes of your heart. <3[/QUOTE

I've always heard that god will sometimes answer your prayers with a no. However, my prayer was only for him to show me that he was with me in my struggle. It didn't happen for me. I understood that he had allowed the pain. But I also thought that he would help me through it. The skies were silent. I gave up. I didn't want to be a Job. If he is real and chose me for that then I will politely decline his fellowship. Nothing had ever made me question god before my personal tragedy occurred. It was the one thing that was so personal and painful that it was bound to change my life. I was mad at god when I first denounced christianity. Now I'm happy and at peace. In my world I understand that things just happen and you have to roll with the punches. Nothing supernatural for me...just life. I like it like that.
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#31
I've heard the "job" reference brought up a lot when talking to christians. You have to realize that for a non christian, especially one who isn't familiar with the bible and has never been a christian before, the story is a horror story. It accomplishes the opposite of what you're going for. You're trying to show them that god will push you to your breaking point just to see what you're made of. It sounds like love to you but it sounds like abuse to us. Please don't take offence. Just trying to show you a different perspective.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#32
I've always heard that god will sometimes answer your prayers with a no. However, my prayer was only for him to show me that he was with me in my struggle. It didn't happen for me. I understood that he had allowed the pain. But I also thought that he would help me through it. The skies were silent. I gave up. I didn't want to be a Job. If he is real and chose me for that then I will politely decline his fellowship. Nothing had ever made me question god before my personal tragedy occurred. It was the one thing that was so personal and painful that it was bound to change my life. I was mad at god when I first denounced christianity. Now I'm happy and at peace. In my world I understand that things just happen and you have to roll with the punches. Nothing supernatural for me...just life. I like it like that.
I posted yesterday that I was hoping to see more questions. I guess this is them.
How can a God who is real not answer at all?
How can a God who is good make someone for the purpose of having to suffer (as opposed to just have a suffering time)? If the stories of Jesus are true, even the crucifixion pain was only a few hours long, and most of His life, and after, He walked in the power of God.

To the first, let me just observe that as a math teacher, there are times when I see a student struggling with an algebra problem, I feel so bad when I can't intervene. I already explained how to do it, but they have to learn it themselves. Especially if they some day want to help others.

As to the second, I agree with you, He can't. If God made a person for the purpose of feeling pain, He would be a sadist, not love. That proves one of three things: 1. God is not real, just something we make up. 2. God exists but is not good. (I think we both reject that one.) 3. God did not make you for the purpose of suffering pain.

You've chosen the first. I think most of us would have preferred you chose the third.

I've got even a harder question: I think it is amazing that you find the courage and strength to say what you are saying to a group like us. We will certainly think you are wrong, and many of us will probably criticize you. Some of us will probably hypocritically make a show of "pretending" to sympathize, and talking about Job a lot [I'm not thinking anyone here has done that yet, folks]. We all believe in an ultimate person with ultimate power, and yet you are showing us, clearly, that you are powerful enough to criticize His existence, goodness, and/or power, and stand on facts that prove it. My question is, where does that courage and power inside you come from?
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#33
I posted yesterday that I was hoping to see more questions. I guess this is them.
How can a God who is real not answer at all?
How can a God who is good make someone for the purpose of having to suffer (as opposed to just have a suffering time)? If the stories of Jesus are true, even the crucifixion pain was only a few hours long, and most of His life, and after, He walked in the power of God.

To the first, let me just observe that as a math teacher, there are times when I see a student struggling with an algebra problem, I feel so bad when I can't intervene. I already explained how to do it, but they have to learn it themselves. Especially if they some day want to help others.

As to the second, I agree with you, He can't. If God made a person for the purpose of feeling pain, He would be a sadist, not love. That proves one of three things: 1. God is not real, just something we make up. 2. God exists but is not good. (I think we both reject that one.) 3. God did not make you for the purpose of suffering pain.

You've chosen the first. I think most of us would have preferred you chose the third.

I've got even a harder question: I think it is amazing that you find the courage and strength to say what you are saying to a group like us. We will certainly think you are wrong, and many of us will probably criticize you. Some of us will probably hypocritically make a show of "pretending" to sympathize, and talking about Job a lot [I'm not thinking anyone here has done that yet, folks]. We all believe in an ultimate person with ultimate power, and yet you are showing us, clearly, that you are powerful enough to criticize His existence, goodness, and/or power, and stand on facts that prove it. My question is, where does that courage and power inside you come from?
I'm here because I like to study religion now as an outsider. It's fascinating to me. I am not here to tell you that you are wrong because I do believe that everyone can have their own personal truth. I understand that you think I am wrong. I realize that my questions will push buttons. That's why i've backed off from asking more. I have many many many more questions but you see, I'm not asking for the answers for myself. I don't believe that god exists. To me, I am asking imaginary questions to get imaginary answers. That isn't fair for me to use you guys like some sort of science experiment for my notes. I realized that and stopped asking questions. I do have an immense love for everyone and I don't want to upset you guys in the place where you gather to share ideas and talk.

As for your very last question, my courage comes from myself. You may say that god made me and I cannot escape from that fact, but if god did make me and it is all true then I choose to exercise the free will he gave us and live my own way. Burning in hell doesn't scare me. It will if it's true and I get there (if it is real I will no doubt be there) but for now that's irrelevant to me. I only know of this one life that I have. I simply refuse to live it in fear of some place that may or may not exist. I love life now. I live it to the fullest with no fear. My courage comes from me and how strong i've had to become over these last few years.
 
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Kefa52

Guest
#34
Darwindeva, It is awesome for you to be here asking questions.Your questions help us also. I will pray that you find peace in Christ.
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#35
Darwindeva, It is awesome for you to be here asking questions.Your questions help us also. I will pray that you find peace in Christ.
Thank you for the prayers. :)
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#36
I'm here because I like to study religion now as an outsider. It's fascinating to me. I am not here to tell you that you are wrong because I do believe that everyone can have their own personal truth. I understand that you think I am wrong. I realize that my questions will push buttons. That's why i've backed off from asking more. I have many many many more questions but you see, I'm not asking for the answers for myself. I don't believe that god exists. To me, I am asking imaginary questions to get imaginary answers. That isn't fair for me to use you guys like some sort of science experiment for my notes. I realized that and stopped asking questions. I do have an immense love for everyone and I don't want to upset you guys in the place where you gather to share ideas and talk.

As for your very last question, my courage comes from myself. You may say that god made me and I cannot escape from that fact, but if god did make me and it is all true then I choose to exercise the free will he gave us and live my own way. Burning in hell doesn't scare me. It will if it's true and I get there (if it is real I will no doubt be there) but for now that's irrelevant to me. I only know of this one life that I have. I simply refuse to live it in fear of some place that may or may not exist. I love life now. I live it to the fullest with no fear. My courage comes from me and how strong i've had to become over these last few years.
I thought you might think that I expected you to answer it's because God made you. I almost put it in my post, but I did not want to influence your answer. I wanted your answer. [I can do experiments too.]

There is nothing unfair about using us as guinea pigs for your experiment. You warned us and we are free not to talk to you. Actually, that may be a problem for you, since you will not get a truly random sample that way; that may make your experiment not valid. I suppose life is that way, though; we all tend to take from the environment things that we choose, rather than a truly random sample.

I will try to give you honest answers to whatever you ask.

In mathematics of computer programming, we have what we call the "continuum hypothesis". We can prove that we cannot prove if a certain thing about counting is true or not. So at the PhD level, all the research papers have to start with either: A. Assuming the continuum hypothesis is true... or B. Assuming the continuum hypothesis is not true....

Let me say it this way:
A. If God is not real, I assume you are exactly where you want to be (otherwise you would go somewhere else).
B. If God is real, you are exactly where He wants you to be. (I know that from how you talk.)

In the first case, I do not know what the final outcome will be, since I don't you all that well.

In the second case, I don't think you're going to wind up in hell, because I think He'll get you where He wants you tomorrow too, and the next day, and next year, and for all your life, and I know He wants you in heaven eventually.

I'm looking forward to the experiment. I hope you find some more willing subjects here.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
179
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#37
I'm here because I like to study religion now as an outsider. It's fascinating to me. I am not here to tell you that you are wrong because I do believe that everyone can have their own personal truth. I understand that you think I am wrong. I realize that my questions will push buttons. That's why i've backed off from asking more. I have many many many more questions but you see, I'm not asking for the answers for myself. I don't believe that god exists. To me, I am asking imaginary questions to get imaginary answers. That isn't fair for me to use you guys like some sort of science experiment for my notes. I realized that and stopped asking questions. I do have an immense love for everyone and I don't want to upset you guys in the place where you gather to share ideas and talk.

As for your very last question, my courage comes from myself. You may say that god made me and I cannot escape from that fact, but if god did make me and it is all true then I choose to exercise the free will he gave us and live my own way. Burning in hell doesn't scare me. It will if it's true and I get there (if it is real I will no doubt be there) but for now that's irrelevant to me. I only know of this one life that I have. I simply refuse to live it in fear of some place that may or may not exist. I love life now. I live it to the fullest with no fear. My courage comes from me and how strong i've had to become over these last few years.
I'm confused here. I can't understand how someone who cried and prayed and went through so much with religion till she got burned out with it now is fascinated with it? I been through burnout, and I can tell you the last thing you'll ever be is fascinated. The religious issues that burned me out I no longer want anything to do with. The traditions and attitudes I hate. I cannot see how even a psychology major would be interested after such an ordeal. Surely you can understand why we might possibly have questions of our own about why you're here. My hope is that you're not truly an atheist, but someone who has been hurt by the system who is still looking for a reason to believe. If you are a true atheist, you will not be able to understand anything we explain, for that requires spiritual discernment, which you would not possess. The only way you would know is if God would convince you of the truth through the Holy Spirit. But Scripture says someone who has believed and left entirely no longer has a place to repent. I would suggest going back to square one and prove to yourself whether you're truly an atheist or not. My hope is that you're not.
As for the second paragraph, I have more questions. I wonder after reading your "testimony", who is trying to convert who? Atheism in and of itself to some has become a religion. Just as anything we cherish can become an idol, the way we serve it becomes the religion
.
 
Dec 5, 2012
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#38
If you like your life now, you will LOVE your life with God.

Use some of us as guinea pigs.

You have nothing to loose and all to gain.
 
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darwindiva

Guest
#39
I'm confused here. I can't understand how someone who cried and prayed and went through so much with religion till she got burned out with it now is fascinated with it? I been through burnout, and I can tell you the last thing you'll ever be is fascinated. The religious issues that burned me out I no longer want anything to do with. The traditions and attitudes I hate. I cannot see how even a psychology major would be interested after such an ordeal. Surely you can understand why we might possibly have questions of our own about why you're here. My hope is that you're not truly an atheist, but someone who has been hurt by the system who is still looking for a reason to believe. If you are a true atheist, you will not be able to understand anything we explain, for that requires spiritual discernment, which you would not possess. The only way you would know is if God would convince you of the truth through the Holy Spirit. But Scripture says someone who has believed and left entirely no longer has a place to repent. I would suggest going back to square one and prove to yourself whether you're truly an atheist or not. My hope is that you're not.
As for the second paragraph, I have more questions. I wonder after reading your "testimony", who is trying to convert who? Atheism in and of itself to some has become a religion. Just as anything we cherish can become an idol, the way we serve it becomes the religion
.
Yes, I did burn out of religion. Yes, I am now fascinated with it. I am fascinated at the way it affects one's mind. It is interesting to me now that the anger toward religion is gone and i'm able to look at it from a different perspective. I was very religious for most of the years that i've been alive. I think it's only natural that I look back at it all and wonder what it's all about. I'm here because it is interesting to me. As far as spiritual discernment goes, no, I don't have that. I don't have the faith to hold on to things I can't see. I'll admit that. I guess this whole question and answer thing was a bust. There really is no way to not offend or come off as a jerk.

But I do want to comment on this "But Scripture says someone who has believed and left entirely no longer has a place to repent." ....I get this one a lot. I do not want to repent. I don't want to live that way. If it's all real then I will choose eternity in hell rather than repent for my own human nature. Just as you say I just won't understand your answers, this might be an answer that you just wouldn't understand either.
 
Aug 15, 2009
9,745
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#40
Yes, I did burn out of religion. Yes, I am now fascinated with it. I am fascinated at the way it affects one's mind. It is interesting to me now that the anger toward religion is gone and i'm able to look at it from a different perspective. I was very religious for most of the years that i've been alive. I think it's only natural that I look back at it all and wonder what it's all about. I'm here because it is interesting to me. As far as spiritual discernment goes, no, I don't have that. I don't have the faith to hold on to things I can't see. I'll admit that. I guess this whole question and answer thing was a bust. There really is no way to not offend or come off as a jerk.

But I do want to comment on this "But Scripture says someone who has believed and left entirely no longer has a place to repent." ....I get this one a lot. I do not want to repent. I don't want to live that way. If it's all real then I will choose eternity in hell rather than repent for my own human nature. Just as you say I just won't understand your answers, this might be an answer that you just wouldn't understand either.

I understand your answer...... I just don't understand your motives. I believe you mean what you say in this last paragraph. I just don't believe you're an atheist. Don't take that as an insult because it wasn't meant to be. You do believe in something..... I sense it. In order to believe against God, you must believe in His reality.

James 2:19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well:
the devils also believe, and tremble.