Tired of the "the Bible isn't clear on this" arguments?

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agirlandherguitar

Guest
#1
I sure am. And it's usually started by somebody who hasn't actually read and studied the Bible front to back (or at all).

Now, I've read the whole Bible for the first time this past year and I admit I was one of those Christians who would say "the Bible isn't clear on this" or "the Bible can be interpreted many different ways and it can mean this to you and something different to me" and of course, "The Bible isn't black and white, it's colorful!"

What a fool!

After reading it (in chronological order) I've realized how foolish I've sounded to anybody I've ever had a discussion about the Bible with. I don't have it memorized page for page but I have a better understanding of it now.

The Bible is black and white (unless you count those nutty Revelation visions... which may make more sense one day), it is 100% clear on where it stands on certain issues (like homosexuality, unfaithfulness, idolatry etc) and it often reads as an owners manual if you read it with an open mind. Aside from the perplexing visions of John and the other prophets, the Bible should not say one thing and mean another like many claim (the classic "the Bible contradicts itself" argument), otherwise it would cause division among God's people (which happens anyways because we want to believe what WE want to believe, not what is truth) and God wants unity, not division.

I still struggle understanding some things in the Bible and there are lots of things that I'll probably never understand. So that being said we should leave the floor open for topics, verses and anything you've read in the Bible and struggled with understanding. Answers are everywhere if you only look.
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#2
Congratulations on reading the Bible in chronological order, that's quite a feat! I did it quite a few years ago, but haven't since. I prefer to read the whole Bible using this method: three or so books of the OT, then one of the NT and so one. It gives you the scope and full picture of God's Word and human history, without leading one to get stuck of books like Leviticus and Numbers and then be tempted to abandon ship before proceeding any further.
 

Stuey

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2009
892
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#3
The bible isn't clear on some issues. :D

Good stuff though!
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#4
Do you feel the Bible is clear on everything that matters for our relationship with God? Can we assume that something that is not clear, after dilligent application, is not important for our realtionship with God?
 

Stuey

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2009
892
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#5
I'll assume that is directed at me - Yes.
 
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greggg

Guest
#6
is the bible in chronological order?
 
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dashadow

Guest
#7
It seems a bit of a contradiction to say one shouldn't say, "The Bible isn't clear" and then end your post with the following:

I still struggle understanding some things in the Bible and there are lots of things that I'll probably never understand. So that being said we should leave the floor open for topics, verses and anything you've read in the Bible and struggled with understanding. Answers are everywhere if you only look.

Luke 8:10-11 (KJV)
10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#8
I'll assume that is directed at me - Yes.
I actually was asking the girl with the guitar. See, my problem is that we see it all the time in these threads. The Bible seems unclear about having only one wife, about masturbation, about musical instruments in NT worship, infant baptism, pre-post trib, and several other things. These have produced long discussions in these threads, with no resolution. If you hold that the Bible is clear about things that matter for our realtionship with God, then you must also hold that these things are not important for our relationship with God. Do you hold that? Or, have all these Christians who have sought so hard for so many centuries to answer such things, simply been missing something?
 
Feb 11, 2012
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#9
Luk 8:17 For nothing is secret that shall not be revealed; nor secret which shall not be known and come to be revealed.
Luk 8:18 Therefore be careful how you hear. For whoever has, to him shall be given; and whoever has not, from him shall be taken even that which he seems to have.

Its good of you read the Bible, but be careful how you hear the word of God, especially from all the false teachers and ministries today!

Unraveling The Truth!

What does the Bible Really teach about Faith, Grace, Repentance, Forgiveness, Judgment and Salvation? Are their MANY Ways to God or One exclusive ‘NARROW’ Path that leads to eternal life? What does it mean to ‘Believe’ on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved? Does the Bible define the Fundamental principles of following Jesus in clear, precise language or allow everyone to draw their own conclusions about what it means to serve God?

In the following study we will unravel the mystery surrounding these vital issues for anyone willing to Seek God’s Truth with an open mind and yielded heart, apart from preconceived notions, doctrinal views or denominational background. However you must approach God on His Terms, realizing that He is NOT asking for your opinions in these matters, but only your obedience to what He has said. Most of you will be LOST before you begin because you cannot put aside what you ‘think’ you already know.

Enlightenment comes with humility. Those of you predisposed to ‘private interruptions’ will have Great Difficulty finding the Truth. But God has NOT hidden His Truth or made it complicated to unravel. He merely requires that you submit to HIM, believe that He is, and that He rewards those who will Diligently Seek Him out! Let us proceed.

Repentance: (The Mandate for Genuine Salvation)

Godly Sorrow for sin as compared to the Sorrow of the World
Your DEEDS must Prove your Repentance, a turning and changing of mind and heart
Repentance produces: Diligence, Clearing, Zeal and Vindication!
The forsaking of sin is an absolute necessity in True Biblical Repentance
Saving Faith Cannot originate in a Divided heart still addicted to sin
The Following Scriptures PROVE the importance and necessity of Real Repentance:

testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ

Acts20:21

First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. Acts26:20

and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Luke26:47

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 2Cor7:10-11

John the Baptist came preaching Repentance, (Matt3:1-3, Mark1:4) Jesus followed with the SAME Message, (Matt4:17, Mark1:15) The Apostles also followed suit, (Acts2:38-39) NO ONE can Receive or Believe in Christ, with saving faith, who has not first Repented of their sin in the manner described in the Bible. (See Luke19:1-10 for an example of true repentance according to Jesus!)

What is Repentance is NOT!

Biblical Repentance is NOT an Apology for sin or for being ‘sinful’
It is NOT merely admitting to God you’re a sinner
It is NOT Repeating words and expecting forgiveness
Godly Sorrow for sin has NOT occurred in a heart that remains unchanged & in bondage to vile affections and evil dispositions. (Thus Saving Faith cannot take hold in such a person!)
"Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you." Rev3:2-3

Faith, Grace and Works: (The many aspects of saving faith)

Faith is Obedience from the heart, (prepared by godly sorrow & repentance)
Faith Produces Purity, Diligence and sincerity of heart
Faith Upholds & Establishes the Law of God!
Faith Works by Love & has Victory over the world, flesh and devil!
The Following Scriptures illustrate the Absolute Necessity of Obedience from the heart to be saved!

Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ; Rom1:1-6

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe (OBEY!) the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John3:36

And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." Acts5:32

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Heb5:9

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. Rom6:15-18

In the Bible Saving Faith also Produces PURITY of Heart:

Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart 1Pet1:22

He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Acts15:9

Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 1John3:3

In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ Col2:11

The Examples of Faith in the Bible Produce the WORKS of Faith:

They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the WORKS of Abraham. John 8:39

and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the STEPS of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. Rom4:12

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was WORKING together with his works, and by WORKS faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith only. James2:21-24

Those who are of the Faith of Abraham (Saving Faith!) WALK in the STEPS of Faith, DO the WORKS of Faith (Obedience & Purity) and FOLLOW the Example of Christ!

Saving Faith Upholds & Establishes the Law. (it does not violate it daily in thought, word & deed)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom8:1-4

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill Matt5:17

Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Rom3:31

The Working Principle behind Faith is LOVE and the Result is Victory over the world:

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Gal5:6

for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 1John5:4-5

The POWER behind Faith is GOD! (But He requires that you OBEY & Exercise faith to be saved!)

Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the WORK of faith with power, that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2Thess1:11-12

remembering without ceasing your WORK of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father 1Thess1:3

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the POWER of His might Eph6:10

Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that WORKS in us, Eph3:20

The LAW of Faith: (Rom3:27)

Eliminates the Boasting of men
Works Redemption of the soul from the corrupting influence of sin
Turns on an OBEDIENT heart yielded to God through repentance
Hungers after heart holiness and Righteousness of life!
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. Rom3:27

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. Heb6:15

Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: Heb10:35-36

By faith Abraham OBEYED he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. Heb11:8

His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith 2Peter1:3-5

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Matt5:6


What Faith is NOT:

Faith is not merely Trusting in Christ or Receiving Him into your heart
Faith is not Trusting that Christ Obeyed for you or that His Accomplishment will be Transferred to you
3) Faith ALONE will NOT Save the Soul! (James2:23-24)

Redemption Through Grace:

Salvation is a FREE GIFT apart from any WORKS of the Law
It is Purchased by the BLOOD of Christ, through His Death on the Cross
God Accepted His Sacrifice as Atonement for the sins of mankind and raised Him from the Dead to confirm His Deity!
Now all who ‘Believe, Obey, Follow and endure’ can inherit Eternal life in Christ.
Here is what the Bible has to Say:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph2:8-10

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1John2:1

God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished Rom3:25

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matt7:13-14

What Exactly is GRACE According to the Bible?

The POWER of God unto Salvation!
The POWER of godliness and self-control!
The POWER of Purity and Obedience to the Truth!
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. Titus2:11-14

so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.Titus3:7





Grace can be Received in Vain! (To no effect, without purpose, if you fail to WORK!)

As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in VAIN. 2Cor6:1

I am afraid for you lest I have labored for you in VAIN! Gal4:11

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in VAIN. 1Cor15:1-2

God Will NOT allow Grace to be Abused! (It is NOT License for immorality!) Jude3-4

Sinning against the Grace of God will Disqualify you from the Kingdom!
The Bible Lists Several sins that will Keep you OUT of the Kingdom if not forsaken
Grace Promotes Godliness & Self-Control, Purity and Obedience!
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Gal5:13-26

But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God .Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. Eph5:3-7

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 1Cor6:9-11

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people. "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb10:26-31

Word of Advice on the issue of Grace:

Allow the Word to speak for itself. Many Great swelling words of emptiness have been spoken on this subject to accommodate man in his sin. The Doctrine of Grace is the DOCTRINE ACCORDING to Godliness! (1Tim6:3-5) The PURPOSE of the Commandment is LOVE, PURITY & SINCEREITY of Faith (1Tim1:5) Anyone who teaches otherwise is ‘destitute’ of the Truth & does not know God! No matter if they appear to you as lambs, RUN from them as you would Wolves!

The Righteousness of Faith, Rom1:17

Faith is Credited to you as Righteousness if you OBEY and DO what God has said to DO!
He who DOES what is RIGHT is Righteous
Submitting to the Righteousness of Faith is DOING & OBEYING God’s Will
Abraham was Declared Righteous by a Faith that OBEYED!
Righteousness as Defined in the Bible:

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

1John3:7-10

Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God. 3John11

Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is WHY "it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom4:19-22
 
Feb 11, 2012
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#10
continued.....


Righteousness does NOT need to be Transferred to man as a Cloak or Cover for his sins, because it is within the Dynamic of Saving Faith to DO what is Right and be PURE of heart! No Personal Merit need exist in this Righteousness and faith because GOD has placed the WORKING Principle of His Divine Grace within it to RETURN man to OBEDIENCE and LOVE. Thus Submitting to this Righteousness from the heart, through repentance WORKS Redemption in the soul and a NEWNESS of life FREE from the Bondage of sin and corruption.

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. Rom10:1-4

Judgement and Works:

The Bible declares that you will be Judged according to the WORKING of faith
Judgement will be rendered by God without Partiality
The Consequences of this Judgement are eternal
‘Not of Works’ in the Bible means there is no Redemptive power in Keeping the Rituals of the Law.
(The Law, once broken, demands death, not Obedience. Atonement must be made to Satisfy the Justice of God. Thus merely returning to obedience to the law cannot Redeem man’s soul, his sin MUST be Atoned for! Therefore God provided the Sacrifice for sin, through Faith in Christ and placed within it the Dynamic of a WORKING Principle so man could KEEP the Righteous requirements of the Law in his heart, RENEWED by the Power of His Grace!)

Once Redeemed you will be JUDGED According to this WORKING Faith!

And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Rev22:12-13

But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment. For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Matt12:36-37

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matt16:27

who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Rom2:6-8

And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear 1Pet1:17

Some Words of Caution concerning Judgment and Works:

God Does NOT forgive your sins in advance!
He can INDEED SEE you sinning and holds you accountable for your behavior!
He DOES NOT Reward a sinful person by taking them to heaven early to avoid disgrace!
WORKING Together with Him, is NOT a WORKS Salvation!
Forgiveness

Christ’s Blood provided Atonement for the sin of mankind
His Blood Purifies and Purges the heart and Conscience of sin!
The Redemptive Nature of this Atonement Returns man to obedience to the Truth!
Through the Fellowship of His Sufferings and the Power of His Resurrection Newness of live comes
For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb9:13-14

By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb10:10

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 1Pet4:1-2

Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col3:1-3

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Phil3:10

The Purpose of the Atonement is Two Fold:

To provide a perfect Sacrifice for sin through the blood of Christ
To Redeem man from the corrupting influence of sin and Purify his heart!
Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Rom12:1-2

(Beware of anyone who would reduce Christ’s Atoning Death on the Cross to a mere ‘exchange’ to accommodate man in his sinful state.)

Mercy

God is Kind to the Wicked!
Do not Mistake His Kindness for His Approval
To Receive Mercy you must bestow Mercy
Read this Passage Carefully. Many make the fatal mistake of associating God’s Patience and Longsuffering with the sins of mankind as His Divine approval on their divided lives! Experiencing the blessings of God is NOT Proof of your acceptance with God! Here He explains the Difference:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance? But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. Rom2:4-9

Failure to show Mercy, once it has been shown to you, forfeits Salvation!

Mercy is not purchased but at the price of mercy itself; and even this price is a gift of the mercy of God. What mercy can those vindictive persons expect, who forgive nothing, and are always ready to improve every advantage they have of avenging themselves? Whatever mercy a man shows to another, God will

take care to show the same to him. (See Matt18:22-35)

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Matt5:7

because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! James2:13

The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

100% Conditional! ‘If you endure to the end you will be saved!’ (Matt10:22)
Following Jesus in Steadfast Obedience to His Truth
Way is Narrow, Gate Straight, Path Difficult and FEW find it!
Believing is DOING and Loving God is KEEPING His Commandments!
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Luke9:23-27

Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Luke13:23-24

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John14:15

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Luke11:28

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me." John14:21

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome. 1John5:3

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb3:14
Courtesy standingthegap.org
Mercy is not purchased but at the price of mercy itself; and even this price is a gift of the mercy of God. What mercy can those vindictive persons expect, who forgive nothing, and are always ready to improve every advantage they have of avenging themselves? Whatever mercy a man shows to another, God will

take care to show the same to him. (See Matt18:22-35)

Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Matt5:7

because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! James2:13

The Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ!

100% Conditional! ‘If you endure to the end you will be saved!’ (Matt10:22)
Following Jesus in Steadfast Obedience to His Truth
Way is Narrow, Gate Straight, Path Difficult and FEW find it!
Believing is DOING and Loving God is KEEPING His Commandments!
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God." Luke9:23-27

Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them, "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Luke13:23-24

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." John14:15

He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it." Luke11:28

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me." John14:21

This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome. 1John5:3

We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. Heb3:14
Courtesy standingthegap.org
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#11
man all that wall of text...two posts worth...honestly tl;dr
 
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OceanGrl

Guest
#12
As someone who has read the majority of the bible in chronological order (just need a few more books to accomplish that), I think you're wrong. There are still things that can be interpreted in different ways, just look at all the threads in this very forum with people disagreeing with each other over and over again. One uses one verse, another uses another and the circle just continues with no clear understanding of which viewpoint is right or wrong.
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
#13
As someone who has read the majority of the bible in chronological order (just need a few more books to accomplish that), I think you're wrong. There are still things that can be interpreted in different ways, just look at all the threads in this very forum with people disagreeing with each other over and over again. One uses one verse, another uses another and the circle just continues with no clear understanding of which viewpoint is right or wrong.
Disagreeance doesn't mean that all who disagree do so literally.

If you grabbed the population of the earth and asked them about God, you would find grealy divrse and contradictory opinions. That does not mean anyone does so legitimately.
 
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OceanGrl

Guest
#14
Disagreeance doesn't mean that all who disagree do so literally.

If you grabbed the population of the earth and asked them about God, you would find grealy divrse and contradictory opinions. That does not mean anyone does so legitimately.
I understand that, but what I was trying to get at was there are certain things that can be interpreted differently. There are some things that can mean one thing to a person while something else entirely to someone else.
 

shawntc

Senior Member
May 7, 2010
729
11
0
#15
is the bible in chronological order?
Not really. The books of the Bible seem to be grouped thematically as opposed to chronologically, by and large.

The books of the Old Testament do indeed come before the books of the New Testament. I would imagine the first five books of the Bible are presented in the order they were written. Then the other OT books are grouped by type - prophecy, history, etc. The NT books are also thematically grouped - gospels, Acts, epistles, etc. Revelation is generally considered the last book written, and also happens to be the last book in the NT.
 
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AmmiAmmiel

Guest
#16
I understand that, but what I was trying to get at was there are certain things that can be interpreted differently. There are some things that can mean one thing to a person while something else entirely to someone else.
Right you are, but only one interpretation can be correct. That is the interpretation the Holy Spirit brings you. It is not found, it's called the doctrine of Illumination. The Holy Spirit illumines the Scriptures to your mind as you read it and is in perfect harmonious agreement with the whole of the Bible. If you think the Bible isn't clear on some things, ( I agree it isn't clear on some things ) that are crucially important, then it is not the Scripture that is unclear, it is your mind. You must pray consistently about this in order to receive understanding and insight into God's word if you truly wish to understand what is being said.

(P.S. Alex, this post isn't directed toward you lol. It's toward anyone who argues about the Bible being unclear[:)
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#17
is the bible in chronological order?
More or less. The order is mostly chronolgical within groupings.

Gen.-Esther are historical books, and they are chronological, with the exception that Num and Lev are contemporaneous and represent two different approaches to the Law. Deuteronomy is last of the 5, because it is kind of a summary.
The Jewish ketubah (miscellaneous writings) are next, and follows the historical order with two interruptions. Job reports events from "time immemorial" and is first. Psalms was written throughout Isrealite history, and is thus the next oldest, if one counts it's origin from David. Songs is out of order, having been written before Proverbs. I assume this is since it represents Solomon as a child, and so is tacked on at the end, like an appendix.
Isaiah through Daniel, the major prophets, are in chronolgical order, but the minor prophets need to be listed parallel to them, not after. They are very out of order, having their order determined by a combination of length as well as date of prophecy. This may have been determined by old book (scroll) making methods, if different groups of scribes worked on the different books in a collection, getting the longest done first would be the best way to predict the time, effort, and materials needed to complete the group being copied.

The NT is in pretty good order, as Jesus' ministry came first, and spread to first the Jew (Matthew), Asia (Mark), Gentiles (Luke), to all men of spirituality (John). The process is described by Acts, and then picked up by Paul. But his letters are arranged by size, with Hebrews last, since no one is certain if he wrote it. Then the letters of members of the twelve, in the order they died, then by size. Revelation, talking about the "forever after Kingdom" is last.
 
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agirlandherguitar

Guest
#18
Congratulations on reading the Bible in chronological order, that's quite a feat! I did it quite a few years ago, but haven't since. I prefer to read the whole Bible using this method: three or so books of the OT, then one of the NT and so one. It gives you the scope and full picture of God's Word and human history, without leading one to get stuck of books like Leviticus and Numbers and then be tempted to abandon ship before proceeding any further.
That sounds like another great way to study the Bible. When I give it another go I may do it that way. I wouldn't give myself a heavy pet on the back. I read the Daily Bible, so it was all arranged in chronological order for me to read every day.

Do you feel the Bible is clear on everything that matters for our relationship with God? Can we assume that something that is not clear, after dilligent application, is not important for our realtionship with God?
I do feel that the Bible is clear on what matters for our relationship with God. The "unclear" things you mentioned, like how many wives, masturbation etc, are things that we complicate ourselves. While there aren't direct verses that say "Thou shalt not have multiple wives" there are other examples where relationships that included more than one woman in a marriage complicated things, such as Abraham, Sarah and Hagar as one example and King Solomon's 700 wives and 300 concubines as another EXTREME example. There are clear answers to modern issues found in the Bible if we looked hard enough and prayed about it for wisdom.

It seems a bit of a contradiction to say one shouldn't say, "The Bible isn't clear" and then end your post with the following:

I still struggle understanding some things in the Bible and there are lots of things that I'll probably never understand. So that being said we should leave the floor open for topics, verses and anything you've read in the Bible and struggled with understanding. Answers are everywhere if you only look.

Luke 8:10-11 (KJV)
10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
I never said that I knew all the answers ;) I am young in my faith and have recently read the whole Bible and in the process of studying it. My whole life I will have questions and maybe I won't understand certain things in the Bible, or maybe what I don't understand now I'll understand later, but it's important to say that there is still an element of mystery to the Bible but not in the sense that it's written in a way meant to confuse and contradict. You could say what Jesus was explaining to his deciples about the parables he spoke in the verse you gave and apply it to one who reads the Bible: Those who want to hear and understand the truth will receive that, while those who do not really trust in the word of God will not understand.