The Herods

zone · May 5, 2013

thanks rachel.
please try to look past anything i might be using to try to make my own point (furious).
if the words are not related, that's fine.
how can we look at the passage and say it's not the same event?
if it's not the same event, it's another fulfillment exactly like it - so which fulfillment is it?
future still?

the idea was to show that the two passages are referring to the same event.
it's possible it's describing another event (and i do see future fulfillments in Rev)...but which event?

this here:

"herod is likewise done by verse five...the dragon is acting through others after that point"

okay...which others?

Revelation retells the same story 7 times rachel.
some portions expand and include more information, others less.

how long after Christ's Ministry and Herod is this:

Revelation 17:1
One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.

you still don't believe this is showing John Jerusalem's fate (70AD)?

because there is zero question the great prostitute was Jerusalem.
so if this event in Rev 17 is a global fulfillment like the 70AD event, it's got to be seen somewhere.
how do we do that without mangling Daniel?
which was time specific and sealed up.

in any case...hopefully william has some input on Daniel 11 (herod), and hopefully i'll get back to it before or after church as well (we're still on winter hours).

k....ttyl

zone · May 5, 2013

i think what we've (me included) been doing wrong is reading/skimming Daniel and not putting in the precise historical details.

the Image Daniel saw is really specific. historically verified. nobody denies any past fulfillments since you'd have to argue with Gabriel and Daniel and God directly.

it's only when we get to those feet on that image that ppl have jumped ahead 2LARGE into the future and made it a revived roman empire or the UN.

Daniel 2 is crystal clear the Stone cut without hands is Jesus. it's clear he smashed the Image at His First Coming.
i'm going from that position.

he said so Himself. the Chief Cornerstone, and He even said the builders had (and would) reject Him.

well...who built Herod's temple?

is the pope catholic?

who's in Grant's tomb?

the Daniel 9 timeline and promise is razor sharp - if anyone is still taking Daniel 9 apart and making it about a future Antichrist, this thread won't be of much interest, prolly.

i can no longer in good conscience not look back for highly specific past fulfillments before assuming anything left over. maybe it'll turn out not to be Herod and Caesar (still just point men for the people). i guess i'll see.

in any case, it was about someone from the past.

The Holy Spirit was extremely specific with the details...hmmm.

the other thing i noticed was the grammatical device AND in prophetic and apocalyptic writing - it's in the english, i don't know about the hebrew or greek.

and...and...and....it doesn't appear to mean AND-THEN-THE-NEXT-THING-IN-ORDER-THAT-HAPPENED-WAS necessarily.
it's a connecting device just keeping the narrative together.

i know this is true in Revelation, which goes back over and over to the same story, using AND i saw, AND i heard, etc.

i'm out of my league here, but isn't AND a polysyndeton?

"Despite their formidable names, polysyndeton and asyndeton are nothing more than different ways of handling a list or a series. Polysyndeton places a conjunction (and, or) after every term in the list (except, of course, the last). Asyndeton uses no conjunctions and separates the terms of the list with commas. Both differ from the conventional treatment of lists and series, which is to use only commas between all items except the last two, these being joined by a conjunction (with or without a comma--it is optional)."

(Thomas S. Kane, The New Oxford Guide to Writing. Oxford University Press, 1988)

anyways...

.....

Daniel 10:14
14Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

this is just so obviously about the last days of Jerusalem.
isn't it?

skipping past the various kingdoms and maccabees (i suspect) and stuff for now.
maybe go back to it later.

.....

Daniel 11
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined .

okay...the time of indignation was 70AD. unless we think God is going to pour out Old Covenant curses again.
so whoever this king is, he was going to prosper until the indignation was accomplished.

zone · May 5, 2013

Daniel 11:36
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

zaam: indignation
Original Word: זָ֫עַם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: zaam
Phonetic Spelling: (zah'-am)
Short Definition: indignation

indignation (21), insolence (1).

ם noun masculine Isaiah 10:25 indignation; — ׳ז Isaiah 10:25 7t.; זָעַ֑ם Isaiah 26:20 2t.; suffix זַעְמִי Isaiah 10:5 3t.; זַעַמְךָ Psalm 102:11; זַעְמֶ֑ךָ Psalm 38:4; Psalm 69:25; זַעְמוֺ Isaiah 13:5 3t.; — indignation of men Hosea 7:16; Jeremiah 15:17; elsewhere of ׳י Isaiah 26:20; Isaiah 30:27; Nahum 1:6; Habakkuk 3:12; Psalm 38:4; Psalm 102:11; Daniel 11:36; "" חרון אף Psalm 69:25; Zephaniah 3:8; "" עברה Psalm 78:49; Ezekiel 21:36; Ezekiel 22:31; "" קצף Jeremiah 10:10; Psalm 102:11; "" אף Isaiah 10:5,25; Isaiah 30:27; compare בזעם אפו Lamentations 2:6; על ׳שׁפך ז Psalm 69:25; Ezekiel 21:36; Ezekiel 22:31; Zephaniah 3:8; כְּלֵי זַעַם Isaiah 13:5; Jeremiah 50:25; יום זעם Ezekiel 22:24; אחרית הזעם Daniel 8:19.

.....

hmmm....

Agrippa II
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Agrippa II (born AD 27/28),[1] son of Agrippa I, and like him originally named Marcus Julius Agrippa, II.[2]

Agrippa was educated at the court of the emperor Claudius, and at the time of his father's death was only seventeen years old. Claudius therefore kept him at Rome, and sent Cuspius Fadus as procurator of the Roman province of Judaea. While at Rome, he voiced his support for the Jews to Claudius, and against the Samaritans and the procurator of Iudaea Province, Ventidius Cumanus, who was lately thought to have been the cause of some disturbances there.[1]

On the death of Herod of Chalcis (in 48), his small principality (Chalcis, Syria) was given to Agrippa, with the right of superintending the Temple in Jerusalem and appointing its high priest.[3] In 53, he was deprived of that kingdom by Claudius, who made him governor over the tetrarchy of Philip and Lysanias.[4] Agrippa celebrated by marrying off his two sisters Mariamne and Drusilla. Flavius Josephus, the Jewish historian, repeats the gossip that Agrippa lived in incestuous carnality with his sister, Berenice.

In 55, Nero added the cities of Tiberias and Taricheae in Galilee, and Julias, with fourteen villages near it, in Peraea. Agrippa expended large sums in beautifying Jerusalem and other cities, especially Berytus. His partiality for the latter rendered him unpopular amongst his own subjects, and the capricious manner in which he appointed and deposed the high priests made him disliked by the Jews. Agrippa failed to prevent his subjects from rebelling, and urged instead that they tolerate the behavior of the Roman procurator Gessius Florus. But in 66 the Jews expelled him was the seventh and last king of the family of Herod the Great, thus last of the Herodians. He was the brother of Berenice, Mariamne, and Drusilla (second wife of the Roman procurator Antonius Felix). He is sometimes also called Herod Agrippa nd Berenice from the city.[1]

During the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–73, he sent 2,000 men, archers and cavalry, to support Vespasian, showing that, although a Jew in religion, he was entirely devoted to the Romans. He accompanied Titus on some campaigns,[1] and was wounded at the siege of Gamala. After the capture of Jerusalem, he went with his sister Berenice to Rome, where he was invested with the dignity of praetor and rewarded with additional territory.

Apostle Paul On Trial by Nikolai Bodarevsky, 1875. Agrippa and Berenice are both seated on thrones.

According to Photius, Agrippa died, childless, at the age of seventy, in the third year of the reign of Trajan, that is, 100,[5] but statements of historian Josephus, in addition to the contemporary epigraphy from his kingdom, cast this date into serious doubt.

The modern scholarly consensus holds that he died before 93/94.[1] He was the last prince of the house of the Herods.

It was before him and his sister Berenice that, according to the New Testament, Paul the Apostle pleaded his cause at Caesarea Maritima, possibly in 59.[6]

He lived on terms of intimacy with the historian Josephus, having supplied him with information for his history, Antiquities of the Jews. Josephus preserved two of the letters he received from him.[7][8][9]

Agrippa II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

wow.
okay...i see a match (maybe).

zone · May 5, 2013

Daniel 7:7
"After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

that's Rome, right?

Revelation 13:1
The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

oops seven heads.

how can those heads not be the Herods?

zone · May 5, 2013

Matthew 2:1
Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem

Matthew 2:3
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Matthew 2:9
When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.

k...there's a king doing everything horrible.
passed right over.

arg...why are there 7 of them?
mkay. maybe it's the title.

oh...i had this being Cleopatra (i think)
but maybe it's Berenice

...shouldn't be skipping ahead.

Daniel 11:6
And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king’s daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

.....

Berenice of Cilicia, also known as Julia Berenice and sometimes spelled Bernice (28 AD – ?), was a Jewish client queen of the Roman Empire during the second half of the 1st century. Berenice was a member of the Herodian Dynasty that ruled the Roman province of Judaea between 39 BC and 92 AD. She was the daughter of King Herod Agrippa I and a sister of King Herod Agrippa II.

What little is known about the life and background of Berenice has been handed down to us through the New Testament book of Acts, the 25th chapter. Also the early historian Flavius Josephus, who detailed a history of the Jewish people and wrote an account of the Jewish Rebellion of 67. However, it is for her tumultuous love life that Berenice is primarily known today. After a number of failed marriages throughout the 40s, she spent much of the remainder of her life at the court of her brother Herod Agrippa II, amidst rumors the two were carrying on an incestuous relationship. During the First Jewish-Roman War, Berenice began a love affair with the future emperor Titus Flavius Vespasianus. However, her unpopularity among the Romans compelled Titus to dismiss Berenice upon his accession as emperor in 79. When he died two years later, so did Berenice disappear from the historical record.

Berenice (daughter of Herod Agrippa I) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

zone · May 5, 2013

Herod

HEROD was not a personal name, but the family surname. It belonged to all the generations of the Herodian house. Much confusion has arisen because this simple fact has not been understood.

HEROD THE GREAT was born in 72 BC and died in 1 BC. He bore the titles of "Herod the King" and "King of Judea". Herod the Great was greatly stirred when the Magi announced the birth of some great king in his kingdom.

The slaughter of all the children in Bethlehem was not out of character for him, as he had murdered many in his own household in order to make his position secure. Before his death he had all the prominent Jews in his territory arrested and put into the hippodrone at Jericho, with instructions to kill them upon his own death.

Herod ruled from around 37 BC until his death in 1 BC. This is the HEROD who was on the scene at the time of the birth of Jesus.

ARCHELAUS was the eldest son of Herod the Great. This Herod ruled after his father died and is only mentioned once in the biblical account. In the gospel of Matthew it is recorded that after Joseph had been told that Herod was dead and that he could return home he learned that Archelaus was now ruling over Judea and was afraid. Joseph was warned in a dream not to return to Judea, and so he settled his family in Galilee. So Jesus was born in Bethlehem but grew up in Galilee.

HEROD ANTIPAS was married to the daughter of King Aretas of Arabia: then took Herodias, his half brothers wife, as his own. John the Baptist called upon Herod Antipas to repent of this sinful act. This resulted in the arrest of John the Baptist, and finally his beheading. Herod Antipas was the one that Pontius Pilot sent Jesus to see when he learned that Jesus was from Nazareth, which was in the region that Herod Antipas ruled. Herod Antipas ruled until around 40 AD.

Philip, the half brother of Herod (Antipas), was ruler of the region of Ituraea. He was the only decent ruler from the line of Herod. He was known for his moderation and his justice. This was the ruler whose wife was stolen by Herod Antipas.

HEROD AGRIPPA or AGRIPPA 1 dethroned Herod Antipas and ruled for about 3 years from 41 AD to 44 AD. Herod Agrippa was the king that killed James the apostle and brother of John. When he saw how this pleased the Jews he had Peter arrested also. An angel delivered Peter from the prison of Herod Agrippa and certain death. You can read about this in the book of the Acts 12: 1-3.

HEROD AGRIPPA or AGRIPPA 2 was the son of Agrippa 1 and was put in charge of a region north of Judea. This is the Herod that was present during one of the trials of the Apostle Paul. You can read about this in Acts chapter 25 and 26. This is the Herod who told the Apostle Paul," You have almost persuaded me to become a Christian."

Summary of the Herods

Herod the Great - Met with the Wise men from the east. Killed all the babies under 2 years old in Bethlehem in an attempt to kill Jesus.

Archelaus - Ruled after Herod the Great. This caused Joseph to relocate to Galilee instead of Bethlehem.

Herod Antipas - Beheaded John the Baptist.

Herod Agrippa 1 - Killed the Apostle James and arrested Peter.

Herod Agrippa 2 - Present during one of the trials of the Apostle Paul

the story of jesus < click

come on! this has got to be "the king"
no?

zone · May 5, 2013

Daniel 11
6 And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king’s daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

??

why are there so many intermarryin.....hey:

Daniel 2
And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

.....

Aretas III was king of the Nabataean kingdom from 87 to 62 BCE. Aretas ascended to the throne upon the death of his brother, Obodas I, in 87 BCE.[1] During his reign, he extended his kingdom to cover what now forms the northern area of Jordan, the south of Syria, and part of Saudi Arabia. Probably the greatest of Aretas' conquests was that of Damascus, which secured his country's place as a serious political power of its time. Nabataea reached its greatest territorial extent under Aretas' leadership.[2]

Hyrcanus and the Judean throne
In 67 BCE, Hyrcanus II ascended to the throne of Judea. Scarcely three months later, his younger brother Aristobulus II incited a rebellion, successfully leading the uprising to overthrow Hyrcanus and take the offices of both King and High Priest. Hyrcanus was confined to Jerusalem, where he would continue to receive revenues of the latter office.[7] However, fearing for his life, he fled to Petra and allied himself with Aretas, who agreed to support Hyrcanus after receiving the promise of having the Arabian towns taken by the Hasmoneans returned to Nabataea by Hyrcanus' chief advisor, Antipater the Idumaean.

Aretas advanced towards Jerusalem at the head of 50,000 men, besieging the city for several months. Eventually, Aristobulus bribed Marcus Aemilius Scaurus, deputy of the Roman general Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. Scaurus ordered Aretas to withdraw his army, which then suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of Aristobulus on the journey back to Nabatea.
Despite the compliance of Aretas, in 62 BCE Scaurus marched on Petra. However, a combination of the rough terrain and low supplies, obliged Scaurus seek the aid of Hyrcanus, now High Priest (not king) of Judea, who sent Antipater to barter for peace with Aretas. The siege was lifted in exchange for several hundred talents of silver (to Scaurus himself) and recognition of Roman supremacy over Nabatea. Aretas would retain all Nabataean territory and possessions, becoming a vassal of the Roman Empire.[8][9]

Aretas III - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

k...gotta back up maybe to sort out the Cleopatra Berenice thing....

to Antiochus Epiphanes, who came right after the The Seleucid Ptolemy thingee.

but who was opposed by The Maccabees.

weren't the the Maccabees followed by Herod as king of Judea?

.....

anyways, here's a possible parenthetical chapter (like Rev 20 is) that talks about Caesar (Augustus).
Augustus passed through Egypt to take Judea, didn't he?

(i see Mark Antony and Cleo in there too)

Timeline of Jerusalem

45 BCE: Antipater the Idumaean is appointed Procurator of Judaea by Julius Caesar, after Julius Caesar is appointed dictator of the Roman Republic following Caesar's Civil War.

43 BCE: Antipater the Idumaean is killed by poison, and is succeeded by his sons Phasael and Herod

40 BCE: Antigonus, son of Hasmonean Aristobulus II and nephew of Hyrcanus II, offers money to the Parthian army to help him recapture the Hasmonean realm from the Romans. Jerusalem is captured by Barzapharnes, Pacorus I of Parthia and Roman deserter Quintus Labienus. Antigonus is placed as King of Judea. Hyracanus is mutilated, Phasael commits suicide, and Herod escapes to Rome.

40–37 BCE: The Roman senate appoints Herod "King of the Jews" and provides him with an army. Following Roman General Publius Ventidius Bassus' defeat of the Parthians in Northern Syria, Herod and Roman General Gaius Sosius wrest Judea from Antigonus II Mattathias, culminating in the siege of the city.[21][22]

37–35 BCE: Herod the Great builds the Antonia Fortress, named after Mark Anthony, on the site of the earlier Hasmonean Baris[23]

19 BCE: Herod expands the Temple Mount and rebuilds the Temple (Herod's Temple), including the construction of the Western Wall.

15 BCE: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, son-in-law of Emperor Augustus visits Jerusalem and offers a hecatomb in the temple.[24]

6 BCE: John the Baptist is born in Ein Kerem to Zechariah and Elizabeth.

5 BCE: Presentation of Jesus at the Temple, 40 days after his birth in Bethlehem (Biblical sources only).

6 CE: End of Herodian governorate in Jerusalem.

Timeline of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

NOTES: i'm ignoring all dates.....i don't do dates.
never gonna work out. i'm looking at the story.

Daniel 11
40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Casear?

OH, POLITICAL INTRIGUE WHY ARE YOU SO HARD?

PneumaPsucheSoma · May 5, 2013

Just to give yourself a nice little continuing piece of humor during the madness... always remember to pronounce Herod as "He"-"Rod". (You can never UNhear this.)

zone · May 5, 2013

PneumaPsucheSoma said:

I GOT IT PINNED DOWN.
all of Daniel 11.

the whole book of DANIEL.

it`s a beauty.

stayed up all night.
takin a nap and heading for my LUTHERAN CHRUCH

wanna come pps.

cold dead orthodoxy might do you some good

PneumaPsucheSoma · May 5, 2013

zone said:

I don't have any more or less issue with Lutherans than anyone else. I love a somber and reverent worship; even unaccompanied is nice.

But unless/until someone expends the effort to disolve sectarian error and bias, I want no part of it by actual affiliation unless as an occasional guest. I'm content that God uses where you are to bless and fulfill you. That's gives me great joy.

O/orhtodox Theology Proper has much right and is salvific (thought the rampant mere conceptualization is quite suspect in that regard). It shares the same three omissions that ALL the competing historcial God-models have in common that inadvertantly yields an impotent God. But that's the minutiae of doctrine, not vital faith. None are any more or less right or wrong in that sense. All the rest is the same nested hierarchy of false dichotomies that respresent truth from different aspects.

Thanks for the offer, and if I were there I would be honored to accompany you as your guest.

RachelBibleStudent · May 5, 2013

zone said:

revelation 12 is pretty much a summary of the whole new testament era...

the woman giving birth is israel...specifically believing israel as represented by people like mary and joseph and zechariah and elizabeth and simeon and anna and nathanael and so on...

the dragon is satan...he wanted to derail God's plan of salvation and tried many times to do it...satan made the attempt to kill jesus at his birth through herod...

from faithful israel the messiah was born...that is the male child who rules the nations with a rod of iron...and when he is caught up to God and his throne...that is when jesus ascended to heaven after his earthly ministry was over...

verses seven through twelve correlate with luke 10:18 as well as revelation 20:1-3 and daniel 2:44...that started during jesus' ministry and became fully apparent at pentecost...

the dragon persecuting the woman is satan persecuting israel which at this point has become more commonly known as the church...but still centered in jerusalem and composed primarily of jewish converts...

the woman flying into the wilderness to a prepared place to stay for 1,260 days or 'a time and times and half a time' is this jewish church scattering away from jerusalem due to persecution by the jewish authorities of jerusalem...

the serpent pouring water from its mouth like a river to sweep the woman away represents false doctrine attacking the early jewish church...the serpent is satan and whatever comes out of his mouth is false... more specifically the false doctrine represented in the vision is the judaizing teachings that were particularly dangerous to jewish christians like peter and those the letter to the hebrews was written to...

but the earth opens up its mouth and drinks up the river...this is AD 70...when the judaizing tendency was cut off at its primary source...jerusalem and the still standing temple...by the earthly force of the roman army under vespasian and titus...

at this point satan's rage shifts its focus...having been thwarted in his attempt to destroy the jewish church...he goes after israel's 'other children'...namely the gentile converts to christianity... chapter thirteen shows the means satan summons in his attempt to destroy gentile christianity...an imperial state and an apostate church supporting the state...

after that the vision moves on to other symbols...

wdeaton65 · May 5, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

revelation 12 is pretty much a summary of the whole new testament era...

the woman giving birth is israel...specifically believing israel as represented by people like mary and joseph and zechariah and elizabeth and simeon and anna and nathanael and so on...

the dragon is satan...he wanted to derail God's plan of salvation and tried many times to do it...satan made the attempt to kill jesus at his birth through herod...

from faithful israel the messiah was born...that is the male child who rules the nations with a rod of iron...and when he is caught up to God and his throne...that is when jesus ascended to heaven after his earthly ministry was over...

verses seven through twelve correlate with luke 10:18 as well as revelation 20:1-3 and daniel 2:44...that started during jesus' ministry and became fully apparent at pentecost...

the dragon persecuting the woman is satan persecuting israel which at this point has become more commonly known as the church...but still centered in jerusalem and composed primarily of jewish converts...

the woman flying into the wilderness to a prepared place to stay for 1,260 days or 'a time and times and half a time' is this jewish church scattering away from jerusalem due to persecution by the jewish authorities of jerusalem...

the serpent pouring water from its mouth like a river to sweep the woman away represents false doctrine attacking the early jewish church...the serpent is satan and whatever comes out of his mouth is false... more specifically the false doctrine represented in the vision is the judaizing teachings that were particularly dangerous to jewish christians like peter and those the letter to the hebrews was written to...

but the earth opens up its mouth and drinks up the river...this is AD 70...when the judaizing tendency was cut off at its primary source...jerusalem and the still standing temple...by the earthly force of the roman army under vespasian and titus...

at this point satan's rage shifts its focus...having been thwarted in his attempt to destroy the jewish church...he goes after israel's 'other children'...namely the gentile converts to christianity... chapter thirteen shows the means satan summons in his attempt to destroy gentile christianity...an imperial state and an apostate church supporting the state...

after that the vision moves on to other symbols...

Rev 12;1 means what? So its not the betulah and ariel and the 12 tribes are you sure about that? What sign were the three wise men in the east looking for than and why?
I am still going through Daniel 11 This is good stuff and lots of fun thanks Zone. I dont think and cant remember anyone ever talking about this maybe they will call it the zoneism to funny yeah I am still trying to disprove it and not finding any major errors. You know how it works study prayer and quiet time with the Lord and the Holy Spirit will reveal it in the word where it always has been concealed just like Proverbs 25;2 says Blessings.

RachelBibleStudent · May 5, 2013

wdeaton65 said:

the sun and moon and twelve stars in revelation 12:1 represent the family of jacob as in joseph's dream...in other words israel...

the wise men saw a new star which apparently was expected due to balaam's messianic prophecy in numbers 24:17...

wdeaton65 · May 5, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

No. Where did the wealth come from and why didnt the wise men know where the KING of KINGS would be born.
Genesis 1 Holds the truth oths and moadeem signs and seasons.

RachelBibleStudent · May 5, 2013

wdeaton65 said:

magi were very important people and they would have had substantial wealth...so there is nothing especially informative about that...

they didn't know where the messiah would be born because numbers 24:17 was not specific...it just said the star and scepter would come from jacob or israel... evidently they didn't have access to the prophecy of micah which narrowed it down to bethlehem until they arrived in jerusalem...

wdeaton65 · May 5, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

Do you know that the Bible is written on a lunar calander not solar.
The stars are there for a reason Job 38 mazzaroth her sons
The wealth was Daniels promised to the Messiah.
That is why Marry gave the poor offering not the rich everything is there for a reason.

RachelBibleStudent · May 5, 2013

wdeaton65 said:

yes i know that the biblical calendar is primarily lunar...and i know why God put the stars there...as a calendar of the seasons...

but if this is going where i think it is going then i am just going to have to say that i won't accept astrology any more than numerology and literomancy...

and actually mary gave the offering of a poor person because the magi had not visited her with their gifts yet...

wdeaton65 · May 5, 2013

RachelBibleStudent said:

So now I am an astrologist the zodiac is a counterfiet to the truth.
You say you read hebrew and you dont know that the story was given to adam why would job know these things that YHWH is talking about or do you think Job didnt know the story and the Lord is just talking to talk in JOB.
You seemed to never come out and just say something about someone you just infer I wonder what GOD finds more offensive.
You dont understand. Do you think herod would of just notice three guys passing through and do you think three guys would cross the wilderness of the east alone with all that wealth. Astrology please that is your answer?

RachelBibleStudent · May 5, 2013

wdeaton65 said:

the bible says that the magi saw a star...that star was prophesied by balaam in numbers 24... it doesn't say that the magi discovered some alignment of planets and constellations and derived a meaning from it as God specifically tells us -not to do-

herod took note of the magi searching for the king of the jews because the magi were asking around jerusalem and herod was a paranoid ruler always watching for someone who might overthrow him...

the bible doesn't say that there were only three magi traveling alone...there could have been -many- magi...and they were important and wealthy enough to have armed bodyguards if they wanted them...

wdeaton65 · May 5, 2013

Sorry Zone didnt mean to side track the thread.
This is turning out to be a strong meat study and I like it!!! Blessings

The Herods

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Senior Member

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RachelBibleStudent

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wdeaton65

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RachelBibleStudent

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wdeaton65

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RachelBibleStudent

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wdeaton65

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RachelBibleStudent

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wdeaton65

Guest

RachelBibleStudent

Guest

wdeaton65

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