Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

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Oct 31, 2011
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#1
There was a movement started in about 150, almost 2,000 years ago, to make Christianity a new religion rather than an outgrowth of Judaism as it is told of in Isaiah. By 350 a Roman Emperor had made it into a law that much of the OT with its teaching of God principles was not only not to be listened to, but it was outlawed. New holidays where made into this new religion that more closely followed how these pagans that made up the bulk of the members were used to. All the old holidays and even their diet was changed to be more in keeping with the new members.

There was scripture they could use. The Jews had tried to get these pagans to do everything they did in ways they worshipped as the main idea of worshipping Christ and God. We have whole scripture books against that being what Christ is about. This new movement took those scriptures to make them the creed for their new ideas of God, they changed the teaching of our new growth possible through Christ to a teaching to ignore God principles.

Now, our world has gone through the holocaust, saying the Jews should all be killed. We were startled at someone killing them. Then things that were prophesied for the last days started happening for the first time and Jerusalem became current news. There was a finding of ancient writings that had been lost in some caves, almost in plain view for thousands of years. Scholars went to work on them and found it opened up ancient language. That opened up the ability to understand items they had found over the years about ancient people. This led to a better understanding of what God was teaching in the OT. This led to a movement in the family of God to include more OT teachings as they learn about Christ.

Some in Christ’s family are going back to how it was in the first century Christian church. They are doing what the book of Hebrews teaches, they are making the understanding of Christ as our Savior a growing from the OT, instead of a new God.

There are many people who are acting like the Pharisees acted when Christ told them of what God had for them. They say our church has been this way for 2,000 years, how could anyone dare change it. They say it can’t be of God, that Constantine was right, he opened up the world to Christ, how could anything he said not be reporting only from God? What about what scripture tells us of rituals, they say, and these people are looking at rituals again. That isn’t of God, they say, it is going back not building upon. We are told we must get rid of it.

I think we should all get out scripture, listen to the HS, and that would teach us to follow Christ as a pathway to the Father. Those against this say that Christ destroyed much of the Father, yet Christ said He did not come to destroy.

Mat_5:17 "Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did notcome to destroy butto fulfill.

Constantine himself would approve of my church, yet they are so changing that there is a class given in archeology, with knowing more intimately OT culture. My friend has so changed that he is going to a class in town given by a professor with knowledge of ancient (as opposed to modern) Hebrew. I have discussed some of this with my pastor until he told me never to bring it up to him again. He passed me in the hall the other day and stopped just long enough to say there could be something in what I’m studying before he hurried along. God is moving in His church.
 
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AgapeSpiritEyes

Guest
#2
Mat_5:17 "Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


Yes honorable brother Red Tent, Jesus came from the Father in perfect God deity Harmony by Agape their perfect essence, He came to fulfill the Law, the law was a perfect hollow container for the Holy Spirit, their Love and power is the essence that fills the container, we who are TEMPLES of The HOLY Spirit
The precious Holy Spirit is amazing without Him there is no Hope in relating or communicating to God or Jesus HE IS The closest one of the God unity now present and in us while we race to Heaven while on this earth. I also pray the most intimate and comforting until our redemption when we see Jesus. I love you Holy Spirit for ministering Jesus and the Father to me come down upon us and open our hearts every day in every way and perfect Jesus in us.
The Amazing Comforter Holy Spirit is our personal administrator of the fullness of God in us to fully please God by perfecting Jesus in us this is the New Contract and New Birth that cannot be accomplished by pretending or obeying laws or rules of the Old Contract or observation of manmade rules of religions or Christian denominations. Only asking opening our hearts and souls to receive and do as we are His temple
 
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SpaceCowboy

Guest
#3
I don't really understand your question?
The OT culture is very fascinating, but gives me a headache to study. Leviticus and books of the like are tedious as all get out to read and understand in the proper context..

I do agree with you though that God is starting to really make the line of division between who's his and who's not really stark. Pretty soon its going to be blatantly obvious whether you live for Christ or you don't. The bond between brothers and sisters in Christ will be proportionate to the persecution thats gonna come for believing on His name, that's for sure.

Either way, I'm all in.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#4
Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law but desire to have you circumcised that they may glory in your flesh.
Christ indeed fulfilled all the law and the prophets.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#5
I don't really understand your question?
The OT culture is very fascinating, but gives me a headache to study. Leviticus and books of the like are tedious as all get out to read and understand in the proper context.. .
That is a big part of my point, not understanding at all Leviticus and books of the like. If you find someone who learned the culture of the Hebrews it was written to originally to help you understand it, it isn't at all tedious it is wonderful. Time so separated us that we haven't understood, now we can. And it is opening up Christ to us as we learn more of what He was talking about as He spoke of these things.

If men of the time of Leviticus read something God was telling us through our understanding, they would toss the entire thing out. What if it included something like "go fly a kite" or "do you dig it?" "or it is on the net". If it was important for them to know what God was saying they would be "up a creek". Now, we are given ways to understand.
 
Apr 14, 2011
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#6
As for the question, God did not cancel the OT, a lot of it was fulfilled by Jesus. As for the stuff I don't understand I either ask questions or just accept the things I don't understand. God bless. Good question!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#7
There was a movement started in about 150, almost 2,000 years ago, to make Christianity a new religion rather than an outgrowth of Judaism as it is told of in Isaiah. By 350 a Roman Emperor had made it into a law that much of the OT with its teaching of God principles was not only not to be listened to, but it was outlawed. New holidays where made into this new religion that more closely followed how these pagans that made up the bulk of the members were used to. All the old holidays and even their diet was changed to be more in keeping with the new members.
sources please....


There was scripture they could use. The Jews had tried to get these pagans to do everything they did in ways they worshipped as the main idea of worshipping Christ and God. We have whole scripture books against that being what Christ is about. This new movement took those scriptures to make them the creed for their new ideas of God, they changed the teaching of our new growth possible through Christ to a teaching to ignore God principles.
!!!!

cite your sources please!

Now, our world has gone through the holocaust, saying the Jews should all be killed. We were startled at someone killing them.
uh....THE holocaust? which one?

is WW2 the marker of everything?

cite your sources on the holocaust please.

can we bring in all the CHRISTIANS who have been slaught......oh.

that doesn't work with your narrative does it.

Then things that were prophesied for the last days started happening for the first time and Jerusalem became current news.
oh please cite your TORAH Biblical Scriptural sources for that.

you are lecturing us on it. it sounds critical.

could we finally see some exegesis? please?

SOURCES...Bible please.

There was a finding of ancient writings that had been lost in some caves, almost in plain view for thousands of years. Scholars went to work on them and found it opened up ancient language. That opened up the ability to understand items they had found over the years about ancient people. This led to a better understanding of what God was teaching in the OT. This led to a movement in the family of God to include more OT teachings as they learn about Christ.
what documents are you referencing.
you're telling stories but please cite some sources.

are you saying there are MORE OT teachings than what we have in our OT?
what are they?

Some in Christ’s family are going back to how it was in the first century Christian church.
that's funny because we have almost NO information about how the first century Christians lived (except they were murdered and persecuted).

SOURCES PLEASE.

They are doing what the book of Hebrews teaches, they are making the understanding of Christ as our Savior a growing from the OT, instead of a new God.
RedTent....are you a Trinitarian?

There are many people who are acting like the Pharisees acted when Christ told them of what God had for them.
what did Jesus tell the Pharisees God had for them?

the damnation of hell is what He said they had.

They say our church has been this way for 2,000 years, how could anyone dare change it.
who says that?
the Pharisees?

or your "some people"?

who are those people?

why do you attend a church you think is in error?

They say it can’t be of God, that Constantine was right, he opened up the world to Christ, how could anything he said not be reporting only from God? What about what scripture tells us of rituals, they say, and these people are looking at rituals again. That isn’t of God, they say, it is going back not building upon. We are told we must get rid of it.
are you ever going to get around to listing WHAT RITUALS you are talking about?

i keep asking you what rituals you say are so important.

now would be a good time to be explicit about what rituals you perform that are so Biblical.

please?

I think we should all get out scripture, listen to the HS, and that would teach us to follow Christ as a pathway to the Father.
um...RedTent.
Jesus already came 2000 years ago and told us He was the way to the Father.

RedTent - was Jesus present at Creation?

Those against this say that Christ destroyed much of the Father
really?
anyone wary of the Hebrew Roots Movement (Judaizers) says that Christ destroyed much of the Father?

could i see any sources saying that please?

Constantine himself would approve of my church, yet they are so changing that there is a class given in archeology, with knowing more intimately OT culture. My friend has so changed that he is going to a class in town given by a professor with knowledge of ancient (as opposed to modern) Hebrew. I have discussed some of this with my pastor until he told me never to bring it up to him again. He passed me in the hall the other day and stopped just long enough to say there could be something in what I’m studying before he hurried along. God is moving in His church.
why do you attend a Christian Church?
why do you attend a church you think is in error and (presumably) claims Jesus destroyed much of the Father?

re:

the Constantine did it canard:

Regarding Constantine, the usual ‘conspiracy theory’ claim is that he was a pagan who feigned conversion, and, chairing the Council of Nicaea, completed the Hellenisation / paganisation of Christianity and fixed the Canon – note Portillo’s reference to Constantine ordering 50 copies of the Scripture to this end. The claim of ulterior motive for conversion is ridiculous (although I am not necessarily suggesting that Constantine would qualify for membership in a modern evangelical church). In 312, when this happened, Christians constituted at most 10% of the empire’s population. All that Constantine needed to do to gain Christian support was to promise religious toleration, which he did in the Edict of Milan. For a modern parallel, imagine the impact of a Pakistani leader seeking support from his Christian compatriots: he would not have to feign conversion to gain their votes, but merely to promise equal rights.

Contemporary Christians acknowledged that Constantine was a Christian – Lactantius (died circa 320), a tutor to Constantine’s son Crispus, was convinced of this, and wrote of the Emperor’s miraculous conversion (the Labarum vision). Later, Eusebius of Caesarea, the famous church historian, affirmed both the conversion and Constantine’s Christian piety several times in his writings. It is known that Christian clergy were close to Constantine after his conversion, especially the bishop of Rome. Interestingly, both Athanasius, the scourge of Arianism, and Arius himself acknowledged Constantine’s Christian piety.

The pagans did likewise. When the Roman Senate erected the Arch of Constantine in 315, they ascribed his victory at the Milvian Bridge to the ‘inspiration of divinity’. The Senate, being pagan, might have balked at naming Christ as the author of the victory over Maxentius, and so a more nebulous phrase was employed. Again, Zosimus, the early Byzantine pagan historian, writing about the late fifth and early sixth centuries, bitterly affirmed Constantine’s Christian faith, one of his sources being the work by the pagan sophist Eunapius of Sardis called The Lives of the Sophists, written circa 395, which referred to the sophist Sopater trying to ‘wean Constantine away from Christianity by the force of his learned arguments’ and of the Emperor ‘pulling down the most celebrated temples and building Christian churches’. Finally, the later Emperor Julian the Apostate, who knew Constantine, ridiculed Constantine’s Christian allegiance.

Constantine believed himself to be a Christian, as demonstrated by his writings. In his correspondence with both provincial governors and bishops, from 313, he affirms his Christian faith. For example, in a letter to the bishops after the Council of Arles in 314, Constantine addresses them as ‘brothers’; he acknowledges that he previously wandered in ‘darkness’, but that now he was ‘converted to the rule of justice’ through the kindness of Almighty God. In Constantine’s oration ‘To the Assembly of the Saints’, usually dated circa 325, he refers to ‘the Spirit of the Father and the Son’, attacks polytheism and idolatry, satirising the idea that the many gods breed to ‘excess’ and denouncing the sculptor ‘who idolises his own creation, and adores it as an immortal god’. He goes on to refer to ‘Christ … who is God, and the Son of God’.

bethinking . org
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#8
I don't really understand your question?
The OT culture is very fascinating, but gives me a headache to study. Leviticus and books of the like are tedious as all get out to read and understand in the proper context..
Leviticus: Seedbed of NT Theology

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html < click

Be Blessed!




while all the HR folks have been waxing romantic but never quite getting around to anything substantial.....CC member Elin already offered the best study on Leviticus you'll find.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#9
Red Tent, I have been studying the Bible for 33 years, since I was saved. I usually read 3 chapters a day in the Old Testament and 1 in the New Testament to get through the Bible every year. Plus, I read the Psalms daily.

So in a day, I read 20% of my readings in the New Testament and 80% in the Old Testament. I have taken Old Testament survey courses, and one book study on Deuteronomy. I also just finished a year of Hebrew, including reading several books like Jonah in Hebrew.

I probably know a lot more about the Old Testament than most people. But I still believe Christ paid it all, fulfilled the law and the prophets and that the Old and New Testament are about Jesus - not about laws, or feasts or the Sabbath.

I worship in a Baptist Church. I went to a Messianic Church for a while, even went to Pesach once, and enjoyed it. BUT I thought it was for Jewish Christians at that time, didn't realize it was Gentiles pretending to be Jews.

Your writings show you are caught in legalism and lies. You never post Bible verses, and rarely back up anything you say with sources as Zone says.

If you are happy with the way you worship, then do it. Just stop trying to convince the rest of the forum it is right or good.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:17-20

Please read verse 20 again!

Anyone who seeks to obey the law, rather than trusting wholly in the finished work of Christ on the cross is subject to verse 20:

"For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

Does all your following the Old Testament exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees?? Because Jesus tells us that you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven, unless it does if you continue to follow the law.

And please stop saying no one here knows the Old Testament. I would guess there are many here that know it much better than you!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#10



Did Christ cancel the OT, or teach us how to use it?

like....LOL...what?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#11
The Mosaic covenent is done, over, passed away. We are under a new covenant.

In calling [the new covenant] new, he has made the former (Mosaic covenant) old; and that growing old and being decrepit is near disappearing. Hebrews 8:13

That was said nearly 2000 years ago. If it was old a decrepit then, what could it possibly be now?

gravestone.jpg
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#12
Angela: I probably know a lot more about the Old Testament than most people. But I still believe Christ paid it all, fulfilled the law and the prophets and that the Old and New Testament are about Jesus - not about laws, or feasts or the Sabbath.
That is what God said, that Christ paid for our sins. I don't think that fact says that everything else the bible says shouldn't be listened to. It IS about laws and feasts and God principles and creation and the Sabbath, also. Christ doesn't destroy any of it because it is fundamental that we go to Him daily. Without Christ we have none of it, but because of Christ we do have all of it.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#13
The Mosaic covenent is done, over, passed away. We are under a new covenant.
In calling [the new covenant] new, he has made the former (Mosaic covenant) old; and that growing old and being decrepit is near disappearing. Hebrews 8:13

That was said nearly 2000 years ago. If it was old a decrepit then, what could it possibly be now?
This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#14
The old testament has tremendous value. It is far from being obsolete!

Jesus said of the old testament: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;" John 5:39

Here Jesus says the Old Testament is about Him. This proves that if you want to learn about Jesus, we can go to the old Testament to learn about him. I love to go thru the pages of the old testament and learn about Jesus.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#15
That is what God said, that Christ paid for our sins. I don't think that fact says that everything else the bible says shouldn't be listened to. It IS about laws and feasts and God principles and creation and the Sabbath, also. Christ doesn't destroy any of it because it is fundamental that we go to Him daily. Without Christ we have none of it, but because of Christ we do have all of it.
No, It is NOT about laws and feasts and any of the other stuff.

It is about having a personal relationship with God.

Before (in the OT) that was the only way man could have a relationship. Because Christ had not died yet. Today, we do not need a bunch of religious ceremony and feasts or anything, We just walk daily with God as we would our parents or our friends.

Thats what Christ came to do. Not only to save us, But give us a chance to relate to him like he originally intended it.

Do you think adam and Eve walked with God with religious feasts and ceremonies? That is what God restored us to. That type of relationship.

Why do people always want to relate God with things and not just relate to him as a loving father!


God talks through, us, in the OT and NT, but not in all these things, He died so we would not HAVE to do them anymore!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#16
This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.
so you r claiming the Israelites didn't know they were promised a Messiah?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#17
The old testament has tremendous value. It is far from being obsolete!

Jesus said of the old testament: "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;" John 5:39

Here Jesus says the Old Testament is about Him. This proves that if you want to learn about Jesus, we can go to the old Testament to learn about him. I love to go thru the pages of the old testament and learn about Jesus.
Going through them, Studying them and learning them is FAR different then trying to copy all the feast and ceremonies and things which were just given to picture him..

No one here is saying we should not study them. Most of us here have probably done MUCH study of the OT.,
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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#18
This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.
ALL HEBREW MEN SPEAKING:

John 1:41
The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).

John 1:45
Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

etc.

and a Samaritan woman:

John 4
” The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”

What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time
oh rly?
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#19
This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.
You really have no idea what you are talking about. You sound like your mind doesn't even function correctly.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#20
This interpretation is what I am talking about. What is the old covenant that is old? It is the entire sacrificial system, every bit of it. It was based on a reflection of what God have happen in our time. Something has to be there to have a reflection of it. What the reflection was of they could not see, because of the time. There was a new way, and whoever wrote Hebrews was explaining to the Hebrews that they needed to use the new way, it was the right way. All of it was the way of growth. The people he wrote to could still be Jews and grow with Christ. But they needed to use Christ and the Holy Spirit.

But today's church is wiping out much, much more than what God says to wipe out.
Why do people think only the sacrificial system was done away? What about all the feasds? and the ceremonies. that ONLY had significance to jews??

How did Adam and Seth and his families relate to God? How about all people up to noah? then him and his family? then all the people to abraham Issac and Jacob? and all the people up to Moses?

They did not have these things, where they LESS spiritual> Did they have less of a relationship with God??