-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
- Status
You know, it's weird. I found my faith in Christ became strengthened when I chose to enter the Catholic Church. I was raised as a non-denominational Protestant. To this day one of the fondest memories I have from my youth was when the whole family would get together at bedtime and read the scriptures together. One of the strongest inspirations of faith comes from my dearly devout Southern Baptist grandmother.
It was because of all the reading and devotion to the Scriptures that I was eventually led by the Lord to the Catholic Church. To this day I've yet to find a church more devoted to the preaching and teaching of the Gospels.
I find that the saints are great inspirations to me to live a Christian life. There are times when I get discouraged, and I think that my sins are too great, my shame is too much, but I recall the stories of the saints. How St. Mary of Egypt went from a life of wanton promiscuity to a life devoted to praying unceasingly to God. How St. Francis of Assisi went from being the spoiled rich playboy to a person who literally would be found naked since he'd given away his cloak to a beggar. How St. Moses the Black went from being a vicious thief and brigand to one of the most beloved and well known monks in history.
All the saints offer an example to us, they inspire us, and they continually pray for us. They don't get in the way of Christ, they point the way to Christ! Through their examples we can see that being like Christ isn't impossible, it's very possible indeed! We can see through the change Christ made in their lives the possibilities of change in our life, even when we despair from our sins.
I thank the Lord everyday for the saints, I love them and I am encouraged constantly from their stories and prayers to devote myself ever more to Our Dearest Lord and Saviour Jesus.
H
Now I would like to respond to that but I'm wondering which version of the Ten Commandments your referring.
The Jewish Version has the 10 as You shall not murder, The Anglican is the same, same with the Orthodox version and then the Catholic version is you shall not commit adultery. Just depends upon to which you refer.
If we were to go the first three, I don't see how the Catholics kill anyone? They don't murder people,they don't believe in the death penalty. If its the adultery part theydon't do that one either. They don't allow divorces, so you can't marry and then remarry and then remarry again like you can in other churches.
Did I hit onto the one you were meaning?
The Jewish Version has the 10 as You shall not murder, The Anglican is the same, same with the Orthodox version and then the Catholic version is you shall not commit adultery. Just depends upon to which you refer.
If we were to go the first three, I don't see how the Catholics kill anyone? They don't murder people,they don't believe in the death penalty. If its the adultery part theydon't do that one either. They don't allow divorces, so you can't marry and then remarry and then remarry again like you can in other churches.
Did I hit onto the one you were meaning?
Last edited:
We just split them differently. If you look at the section of the Ten Commandments in the scriptures, there's something like 14 actual statements. We Catholics count the "No other gods" and "Make no idols" as one since typically in ancient times, making an idol was part and parcel to having other gods. We then also split up the "dont covet your neighbor's stuff" and "don't covet your neighbor's wife" because we feel that a person's wife isn't a mere possesion, but something more special.
S
Protestant: "Christ led me out of the Catholic Church and to the truth!"
Catholic: "Christ led me out of my Protestant faith and to the truth!"
I think a good discussion will have to move beyond our own personal experiences of where we think God has led us simply because we happen to be there, we're happier there, we feel more spiritually nourished there, etc. Just sayin'.
Also:
"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand." (Revelations 8:3-4)
We believe that the word 'saint' (from the Latin sanctus, which means holy) refers to those who are in heaven. Heaven is a holy place, and those in it are holy people by default. These saints can be any believer who has died and now lives in the eternal presence of God, or they can be persons whose lives of extraordinary piety, virtue, self-sacrifice, martyrdom, and Christ-like behavior we so well know to others that there it is virtually certain that these Christians are in heaven with God. Those who are more well known are "officially" cannonized, and they are Saints with a capital S. All souls in heaven are saints.
The scriptures above mention that the saints' prayers are offered before the throne of God. They are already in heaven, so we can assume that they aren't praying for themselves as they don't have any need to be prayed for since they have already attained eternal bliss. We can assume that these prayers are prayers of adoration before God, and also that they are praying for those of us on Earth who continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It would certainly be the best form of intercessory prayer available: from the mouths of the saints in heaven themselves before the altar of God.
So, being humans so prone to our frailty that we always need help, we ask these saints in heaven to pray for us. We ask them just as we would ask anyone else to pray for us. We ask because we need to be prayed for, and the prayers of a holy man are powerful (James 5:16), and the most holy of people must certainly be those saints in heaven, and their prayers must be of great value for our benefit.
Catholic: "Christ led me out of my Protestant faith and to the truth!"
I think a good discussion will have to move beyond our own personal experiences of where we think God has led us simply because we happen to be there, we're happier there, we feel more spiritually nourished there, etc. Just sayin'.
Also:
"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand." (Revelations 8:3-4)
We believe that the word 'saint' (from the Latin sanctus, which means holy) refers to those who are in heaven. Heaven is a holy place, and those in it are holy people by default. These saints can be any believer who has died and now lives in the eternal presence of God, or they can be persons whose lives of extraordinary piety, virtue, self-sacrifice, martyrdom, and Christ-like behavior we so well know to others that there it is virtually certain that these Christians are in heaven with God. Those who are more well known are "officially" cannonized, and they are Saints with a capital S. All souls in heaven are saints.
The scriptures above mention that the saints' prayers are offered before the throne of God. They are already in heaven, so we can assume that they aren't praying for themselves as they don't have any need to be prayed for since they have already attained eternal bliss. We can assume that these prayers are prayers of adoration before God, and also that they are praying for those of us on Earth who continue to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). It would certainly be the best form of intercessory prayer available: from the mouths of the saints in heaven themselves before the altar of God.
So, being humans so prone to our frailty that we always need help, we ask these saints in heaven to pray for us. We ask them just as we would ask anyone else to pray for us. We ask because we need to be prayed for, and the prayers of a holy man are powerful (James 5:16), and the most holy of people must certainly be those saints in heaven, and their prayers must be of great value for our benefit.
I
Oh, the problems we humans get into by "assuming" what God says! We have no idea what saints are praying for in heaven, and it is not for us to "assume". If we are to know, if it is important to our spiritual growth, the Holy Spirit will reveal it.
Saints with a capital "S"? Again, where is the biblical evidence that some are more elevated in heaven than others?
Knowing without a doubt that these are in heaven gets them canonized? I know without a doubt that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, that He was crucified for our sins, that He died, that He rose again in 3 days, that He now sits at the right hand of God the Father, and that He is the only way to God is in heaven. Again, it is works that get you canonized, and works are not a requirement of salvation. Neither is baptism, by the way. There is that little issue of the thief that hung on the cross with Jesus. He believed, and Jesus promised him salvation. No time for either works or baptism, no time for belonging to any church, no time for anything but a belief in who Jesus is.
I can pray directly to my Father because of the sacrifice of Jesus. Why would I skip going directly to the source and ask someone else to intervene? I strongly believe that this minimizes what Christ did for us on the cross, and maybe even nullifies His saving work. He opened the Holy of Holies so that all could enter in to the Father's presence. That is where I go for help, for forgiveness, for comfort, for guidance. I don't need another.
Humans are to pray for each other. I find no biblical evidence that the saints are to pray for us. The bible states that God will wipe away all tears. If the saints are watching our lives, in the context of heaven, how could they not be sorrowed?
I think that being in the presence of Jesus will result in prayers of unending worship and gratitude. I find it hard to believe that there is time for anything else. Again, I need specific biblical evidence before I believe any theory from any church or individual before I can accept the teaching. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are my guides, not any man.
iamnotashamedthelist.com
Saints with a capital "S"? Again, where is the biblical evidence that some are more elevated in heaven than others?
Knowing without a doubt that these are in heaven gets them canonized? I know without a doubt that anyone who confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, that He was crucified for our sins, that He died, that He rose again in 3 days, that He now sits at the right hand of God the Father, and that He is the only way to God is in heaven. Again, it is works that get you canonized, and works are not a requirement of salvation. Neither is baptism, by the way. There is that little issue of the thief that hung on the cross with Jesus. He believed, and Jesus promised him salvation. No time for either works or baptism, no time for belonging to any church, no time for anything but a belief in who Jesus is.
I can pray directly to my Father because of the sacrifice of Jesus. Why would I skip going directly to the source and ask someone else to intervene? I strongly believe that this minimizes what Christ did for us on the cross, and maybe even nullifies His saving work. He opened the Holy of Holies so that all could enter in to the Father's presence. That is where I go for help, for forgiveness, for comfort, for guidance. I don't need another.
Humans are to pray for each other. I find no biblical evidence that the saints are to pray for us. The bible states that God will wipe away all tears. If the saints are watching our lives, in the context of heaven, how could they not be sorrowed?
I think that being in the presence of Jesus will result in prayers of unending worship and gratitude. I find it hard to believe that there is time for anything else. Again, I need specific biblical evidence before I believe any theory from any church or individual before I can accept the teaching. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are my guides, not any man.
iamnotashamedthelist.com
T
I want to state two OBVIOUS points.
1-In the Old Testament, why no prayers to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? But to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Not once did David or any of the others appeal to their ancestors or past dead 'believers' to pray/intercede for them to God...this is obvious, read the Old Testament...but wait you cannot find this in the New Testament either...
2-The Roman Catholic Church is not 'uniform' either....the accusation that protestants have soooo many denominations and that there is just the Roman Catholic Church is blatently wrong...unless you have never actually talked to people within the Roman Catholic Church...but beliefs differ within that church perhaps more widely than any other denomination...for example, I have met many people who profess to be catholics but do not believe in purgatory...now in protestism, I believe all are uniformly against this idea...But it goes farther, like hmmm...I don't know beliefs on everything differ greatly...like most of them believe Mary to be reverenced deeply, and believe she magically appears in different places, while others may? shun this belief....but also the amount of reverence differs greatly from person to person...The Catholic church may formerly have 'dogma' but it is just as divided as a protestant church that has a defined 'dogma' but actually within the church you will find a plethora of views...
Hmm...for example, a good thing to consider is not just evil popes but also people like Jon of Arc...who the catholic church condemned and then later made a saint...now what does this suggest...the people that were against here being burned must have been the true catholic church or the church that burnt her? I doubt you can get a stricter divide...and yet you find both within the catholic church, both the heresy (either to burn her or to save her--one or the other) was a heresy, and yet somehow the catholic church claims to have both of them in 'her belly.' The point in saying all this is perhaps you could find 50,000 within the catholic church that actually believes everything the rcc formally believes, but I doubt it...unless you accept an answer like 'whatever the rcc believes I believe' and you do not go into specifics...
I want to restate a strange idea that the rcc atleast dogmatically believes in that has not been discussed, 'Mary the mother of Jesus' magically can show up anywhere...I find this absurd...just as I find it absurd to pray to Mary that she would show her Son to me...as if she was my intercessor to Jesus...
Just thoughts
tony
1-In the Old Testament, why no prayers to Abraham, Isaac, or Jacob? But to the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Not once did David or any of the others appeal to their ancestors or past dead 'believers' to pray/intercede for them to God...this is obvious, read the Old Testament...but wait you cannot find this in the New Testament either...
2-The Roman Catholic Church is not 'uniform' either....the accusation that protestants have soooo many denominations and that there is just the Roman Catholic Church is blatently wrong...unless you have never actually talked to people within the Roman Catholic Church...but beliefs differ within that church perhaps more widely than any other denomination...for example, I have met many people who profess to be catholics but do not believe in purgatory...now in protestism, I believe all are uniformly against this idea...But it goes farther, like hmmm...I don't know beliefs on everything differ greatly...like most of them believe Mary to be reverenced deeply, and believe she magically appears in different places, while others may? shun this belief....but also the amount of reverence differs greatly from person to person...The Catholic church may formerly have 'dogma' but it is just as divided as a protestant church that has a defined 'dogma' but actually within the church you will find a plethora of views...
Hmm...for example, a good thing to consider is not just evil popes but also people like Jon of Arc...who the catholic church condemned and then later made a saint...now what does this suggest...the people that were against here being burned must have been the true catholic church or the church that burnt her? I doubt you can get a stricter divide...and yet you find both within the catholic church, both the heresy (either to burn her or to save her--one or the other) was a heresy, and yet somehow the catholic church claims to have both of them in 'her belly.' The point in saying all this is perhaps you could find 50,000 within the catholic church that actually believes everything the rcc formally believes, but I doubt it...unless you accept an answer like 'whatever the rcc believes I believe' and you do not go into specifics...
I want to restate a strange idea that the rcc atleast dogmatically believes in that has not been discussed, 'Mary the mother of Jesus' magically can show up anywhere...I find this absurd...just as I find it absurd to pray to Mary that she would show her Son to me...as if she was my intercessor to Jesus...
Just thoughts
tony
S
The key point, however, is that the Church teaches one thing, while her members are quite able to believe what they want to believe and live as they want because they have the freedom of their wills. This is why we have Catholics that do these things. Their own ways of life are not the beliefs of the Church. Once someone is baptized as Catholic, they remain Catholic. The bad people, yes, even there were many immoral popes, were bad Catholics and their actions were scandalous for the Church, but the uniformity of the Church comes from the Church's own beliefs, not the practices of its individual members.
There were quite a many popes throughout the Church's history that probably were some of the worst human beings of their time in terms of behavior. The Church is holy, not necessarily all her people who fall short of the glory of God big time. As terrible as they may have been, they never made an erroneous statement of faith binding upon all Catholics to believe that contradicted anything the Church had already taught and believed.
As for Joan of Arc, what we often forget is that we had a political conflict between France and England. The French and the English were both vastly Catholic nations, yet were political enemies. The citizens of these kingdoms were fiercely patriotic, including the clergy. So, we have the French clergy supporting Joan of Arc and these visions they believe to be a holy sign, and the English clergy saying she is possessed by demons. So, when the English got ahold of this French soldier that she was, they let their patriotism get far ahead of their mercy. She was tried by an inquisitional court by the English clergy, and found guilty. Now, what was supposed to happen was that she would be kept under the guard of nuns as was the custom for female prisoners of her status. What happened instead, is the English government stepped in and put her in a secular prison where she was abused by English male guards who worked for the state. She was later executed by the English. This was because she had lead the French army against England. It was a political matter first, and the politicians freely used religion to justify their actions (just like many do today). She was made a saint because she died a holy death at the hands of an enemy who used religion for political gain against the teaching of the Church. The Church did not have her executed. The English did. The Church had planned for her to spend her days under the watch of nuns, and the English intervened to have her put to death to avenge the insulting losses suffered under her French troops.
Again, the Church's doctrines are not subject to popular opinion. There are 1 billion Catholics worldwide, but there is only one Catholic church. The Church teaches what she teaches and will not change the faith. Any one of those 1 billion have the ability to profess Catholicism with their tongues and betray it with their thoughts and actions. It's free will.
There were quite a many popes throughout the Church's history that probably were some of the worst human beings of their time in terms of behavior. The Church is holy, not necessarily all her people who fall short of the glory of God big time. As terrible as they may have been, they never made an erroneous statement of faith binding upon all Catholics to believe that contradicted anything the Church had already taught and believed.
As for Joan of Arc, what we often forget is that we had a political conflict between France and England. The French and the English were both vastly Catholic nations, yet were political enemies. The citizens of these kingdoms were fiercely patriotic, including the clergy. So, we have the French clergy supporting Joan of Arc and these visions they believe to be a holy sign, and the English clergy saying she is possessed by demons. So, when the English got ahold of this French soldier that she was, they let their patriotism get far ahead of their mercy. She was tried by an inquisitional court by the English clergy, and found guilty. Now, what was supposed to happen was that she would be kept under the guard of nuns as was the custom for female prisoners of her status. What happened instead, is the English government stepped in and put her in a secular prison where she was abused by English male guards who worked for the state. She was later executed by the English. This was because she had lead the French army against England. It was a political matter first, and the politicians freely used religion to justify their actions (just like many do today). She was made a saint because she died a holy death at the hands of an enemy who used religion for political gain against the teaching of the Church. The Church did not have her executed. The English did. The Church had planned for her to spend her days under the watch of nuns, and the English intervened to have her put to death to avenge the insulting losses suffered under her French troops.
Again, the Church's doctrines are not subject to popular opinion. There are 1 billion Catholics worldwide, but there is only one Catholic church. The Church teaches what she teaches and will not change the faith. Any one of those 1 billion have the ability to profess Catholicism with their tongues and betray it with their thoughts and actions. It's free will.
J
Holding the Catholic Church responsible for it's sins is kind of like blaming Protestantism for Calvin's terrible acts in Geneva or the Witch hunts in America. It ignores the outlying factors, erroneously so.
Remember Krister Stendahl's 3 Rules of Religious Understanding:
1) When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.
(3) Leave room for 'holy envy.'
Remember Krister Stendahl's 3 Rules of Religious Understanding:
1) When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.
(3) Leave room for 'holy envy.'
M
If it was ?s being asked you might get some reply's, this looks like just the same old bashing by people that don't know they just heard. Protestant means that you protest the Catholic Church so don't find it strange that you have been taught to protest every thing that is different, have you noticed that the Catholics don't protest you, In fact we can call you brother or sister. You can't because you think we pray to Mary for the forgiveness of sin and don't know who Christ is. You have no Idea of the Love for Christ that Catholics have, Go to Mass some day and see for your self please. Please don't compare apples to oranges the Catholic Church has been around for 2,000 yrs. and at best your Church has been around for 400yrs. Christ said to LOVE one another as I have loved you. Could we LOVE and drop all the protesting about what differences we have?
S
I think that deep down inside, were all of us to be sitting in a huge room, we would argue for probably like, 3 days straight. We'd all get heated and leave in a furry after so much disagreement. Then, I imagine us all going to a large cafeteria where there are even more people. I sit down to eat. Mahogany comes in, grabs some food, looks a round at all these people who are unfamiliar, sighs, then sits at my table. This goes on until everyone in this threat is basically eating silently and reservedly at the same table. To relieve tension, someone flicks a green pea at someone else, then we all just start talking and joking and having a grand ol' time.
Or we kill each other. I'm not sure on that.
Or we kill each other. I'm not sure on that.
Yeah, I kind of gave up on this thread.
There's a fine line between civil debate and just helping someone to get further entrenched in their views. I've had many conversations with Muslims wherein' the only thing I've done is give them a heads up in regards to the things to expect and prepare for, come next debate.
On the boards, I see it as an appropriate place to "debate" because, well, everyone's doing it. Doesn't matter how small or innocent the topic, seems someone always disagrees. Not necessarily a bad thing.
But I've learned that when hanging out with protestants and even people that aren't believers, to not go out of my way to try and explain my faith unless the topic comes up and is started by them. Live the faith, sure, but don't start out the convo like, 'heyyy, what's up? so what you really think about the filioque?" or even worse, "so you want to talk about what's wrong with the filioque?"
I might as well just walk up to a friend and say, "heyyy, want to start an argument that is very personal to the both of us, will require great patience and test our ability to be self-controlled? you do!? Great! I'll go first."
If I were in Manchester and came from Brazil the last thing I'd do is strike up a conversation about football, unless I were a Manchester fan.
There's a fine line between civil debate and just helping someone to get further entrenched in their views. I've had many conversations with Muslims wherein' the only thing I've done is give them a heads up in regards to the things to expect and prepare for, come next debate.
On the boards, I see it as an appropriate place to "debate" because, well, everyone's doing it. Doesn't matter how small or innocent the topic, seems someone always disagrees. Not necessarily a bad thing.
But I've learned that when hanging out with protestants and even people that aren't believers, to not go out of my way to try and explain my faith unless the topic comes up and is started by them. Live the faith, sure, but don't start out the convo like, 'heyyy, what's up? so what you really think about the filioque?" or even worse, "so you want to talk about what's wrong with the filioque?"
I might as well just walk up to a friend and say, "heyyy, want to start an argument that is very personal to the both of us, will require great patience and test our ability to be self-controlled? you do!? Great! I'll go first."
If I were in Manchester and came from Brazil the last thing I'd do is strike up a conversation about football, unless I were a Manchester fan.
- Status