Is it logical to assume that nothing created the universe?

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Bryancampbell

Guest
#21
Where? Does the bible actually say this or did you just assume it? I'm familiar with the Genesis narrative, and "time" is not one of the things God created. In fact, it describes all the events of creation happening within "days", which implies that time pre-existed the acts of creation.
I don't think you realized this friend, but God created the heavens and the earth before the first day, and that He existed before the first day, which would imply He stood outside of time until He created time, but even now and forever God is not controlled or stopped by time, He simply works within time, that which He created...
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#22
The creature, the one that is supposed to have reasoning power, knows he did not create himself. There is no excuse for any who assume otherwise.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#23
Where? Does the bible actually say this or did you just assume it? I'm familiar with the Genesis narrative, and "time" is not one of the things God created. In fact, it describes all the events of creation happening within "days", which implies that time pre-existed the acts of creation.
The celestial objects that govern time weren't created until the 4th 'day', so it makes no sense that time as we know it preexisted that which governs it. What law has ever created itself? So 'day' in the six days of creation must be allegorical.
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#24
Some people want to believe nothing created the universe. It all just magically happened. Nothing made it all happen.
Is that logical? Please explain.
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much:

There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind.


- Max Planck- founder of Quantum Theory

"Mathematics and dynamics fail us when we contemplate the Earth, fitted for life but lifeless, and try to imagine the commencement of life upon it. This certainly did not take place by any action of chemistry, or electricity, or crystalline grouping of molecules under the influence of force, or by any possible kind of fortuitous concourse of atoms. We must pause, face to face with the mystery and miracle of creation of living creatures."

- William Thomson Kelvin
 
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nathan3

Guest
#25
It's really not logical to assume anything. That is why we have God's Bible.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,240
6,531
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#26
Namaste
Question, would it be correct to think of matter as very slow energy? Is not, according to science that is, everything a form of energy. No, I do not understand any of this, ergo, the questions.............thank you..

"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much:

There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind.


- Max Planck- founder of Quantum Theory

"Mathematics and dynamics fail us when we contemplate the Earth, fitted for life but lifeless, and try to imagine the commencement of life upon it. This certainly did not take place by any action of chemistry, or electricity, or crystalline grouping of molecules under the influence of force, or by any possible kind of fortuitous concourse of atoms. We must pause, face to face with the mystery and miracle of creation of living creatures."

- William Thomson Kelvin
 
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Sanashankar

Guest
#27
Namaste
Question, would it be correct to think of matter as very slow energy? Is not, according to science that is, everything a form of energy. No, I do not understand any of this, ergo, the questions.............thank you..
Hi, im not that good at science. But i loved the way the 2 scientists admitted that there is an inteligent mind behind the creation of the world, and it was not an accident. Both the scientists are a strong believers of God. I admire scientists who believes the "word of God".
 
May 15, 2013
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#28
Where? Does the bible actually say this or did you just assume it? I'm familiar with the Genesis narrative, and "time" is not one of the things God created. In fact, it describes all the events of creation happening within "days", which implies that time pre-existed the acts of creation.
2 Corinthians 4:18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

Revelation 1:8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Spirits is considered the unseen, since we can not see them and the realm that they are in. The souls is also unseen by us and which the souls is eternal. God is trying His best to keep our eternal soul from being castaway from the presence of things that He created that is consider to be good.

1 Chronicles 29:11
Yours, Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, Lord, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all.

Here's some of the glories of God.

Genesis 1:4God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. (Which mean He has castaway darkness from the presence of His goodness)

Genesis 1:10
God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:12
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:21
So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:31
God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

But this is what will happen to the souls that didn't matured. they be lonely spirits.

Gen 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
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#29
2 Corinthians 4:18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

If our human senses can't detect it, we consider it to be nothing. But that doesn't means that it doesn't exist.


Accounts of similar animal anticipation of earthquakes have surfaced across the centuries since. Catfish moving violently, chickens that stop laying eggs and bees leaving their hive in a panic have been reported. Countless pet owners claimed to have witnessed their cats and dogs acting strangely before the ground shook—barking or whining for no apparent reason, or showing signs of nervousness and restlessness.
Can Animals Sense Earthquakes?
I beg to differ, We see God all around us;

Romans 1:20
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Psalm 19
19 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Their line[SUP][/SUP] has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.


In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;


God has put the sense in everybody to detect him, it's just some are blind because they do not want to see God or obey Him.

If you can help a person see that our world, what God has made, has and needed an intelligent designer, that's half the battle. Then you can point them the God of the bible.
 
May 15, 2013
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#30
I beg to differ, We see God all around us;

Romans 1:20
[SUP]20[/SUP]For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Psalm 19
19 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.


In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.


[SUP]7 [/SUP]The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul;
The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart;
The commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes;


God has put the sense in everybody to detect him, it's just some are blind because they do not want to see God or obey Him.

If you can help a person see that our world, what God has made, has and needed an intelligent designer, that's half the battle. Then you can point them the God of the bible.
Matthew 7:8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#31
Matthew 7:8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

Matthew 13:13
This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
Yah, great scriptures. What are you trying to say with them. Do they add meaning and support the point I made or take away?

Why did they not see, why did they not hear? Romans 1:22-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Men loved darkness rather then light! John 3:19
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
 
May 15, 2013
4,307
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#32
Yah, great scriptures. What are you trying to say with them. Do they add meaning and support the point I made or take away?

Why did they not see, why did they not hear? Romans 1:22-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP]because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Professing to be wise, they became fools, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Men loved darkness rather then light! John 3:19
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
No, just trying to say that if a person that doesn't have the desire in them, will not give the thought of listening.
 

allaboutlove

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
480
4
18
#33
Even athiest would find it illoical that the universe just appeared magicly.. they have therorys an of ideas of how things came to be and if you look at it from a non biased standpoint saying matter just exsisted an wasnt created really isnt more out there than saying God just excisted... now you know an i know that he did buu we shouldnt put others down for what they dont know.
 
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danschance

Guest
#34
It is impossible and ridiculously illogical to think DNA can form all on it's own.

1) It is impossible for DNA to self produce.
2) Statically impossible for DNA to form.
3) DNA forbids one species from changing into another species.
4) Only a fool would think DNA can randomly form.

Read the devastating information from scientists on how DNA can not form on it's own.
------> pathlights.com
 
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Witness45

Guest
#35
Scientists didn't come up with the multiverse theory in order to try to disprove God. The multiverse was an attempt to answer the "fine-tuning problem", which is a bigger problem for scientists to answer. We'd like a good, sound answer for how the universe began, and it's difficult to do that when creating a universe is not a science experiment that any of us are capable of embarking upon.

While it's true that no scientist thinks the universe "always was", that's because of the positive evidence that demonstrates a Big Bang. Background radiation only makes sense given this explanation, and the "God answer" doesn't even attempt to explain it... or the expansion of the universe... or the distance of stars... or why the universe is mostly empty space that we can't inhabit. Even if you think the Big Bang Theory is a poor explanation for these events, it's comparably a much better explanation than Christianity offers. But it's a false dichotomy, and disbelief in The Big Bang Theory certainly wouldn't necessitate the belief in creation.
I never said I didn't believe in the Big Bang Theory, in fact I use it as one of the single greatest evidences for God. I love the Big Bang, I just happen to know who Banged it. Mind you, there are a few kinks that could be knocked out of it such as the speculation of a singularity which has no evidence to support, or the idea that this happened 14 billion years ago which is only an assumption. The evidence for the Big Bang is incredibly strong, but it only proves that the universe had a beginning, not when that beginning was. After all, Genesis 1:1 states "In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth" sounds an awfully lot like a Big Bang to me. Each of the six days of creation begins with "And God said" which begins after verse one. The universe had a beginning and matches up with the Bible's account.

But my larger point is the double-standard implied here -- if you believe that God didn't need a cause, then logically it is possible for something to exist uncaused. You merely assert that God is spaceless, timeless, and uncaused, but these beliefs aren't from observation... they are simply assumed given the properties a creator would need, if there was a creator. And they are just as assumed as the idea that the universe is not spaceless, timeless, or uncaused. In fact, there is no evidence that the singularity that spawned the Big Bang was in space, in time, or caused, and thus a scientist could honestly assert that the singularity held these same attributes that are philosophically assumed of God.
You're right, it is logically possible for something to exist uncaused. However based on the evidence for the Big Bang, we know that the universe had a beginning, and therefore, the universe had a cause. The question is whether or not an intelligence caused the universe, or an object (such as a singularity) caused the universe.

There is no evidence for the existence of a singularity, it's just a philosophical assumption based on the evidence that everything exploded out of what appears to be literally nothing. Scientists logically know that things don't appear to explode out of nothing, and since God isn't the answer, then there must have been a pre-existing 'thing' such as a singularity.

There is evidence for God however, due to the extreme fine-tuning of the universe in order to support life. Of course the common atheist response to this issue is the multiverse theory, which much like the singularity response, is simply an assumption based on no evidence. Besides, the multiverse theory only pushes the problem back even further. The question then is "Where did the multiverse come from?" Ironically you still need God to make the multiverse.

So let's tally this, shall we? Evidence for Theism: 1 Evidence for Atheism: 0

So what's my point in this? my point is that not only did the universe have a beginning, but that this is positive evidence for God. The Atheist explanation presents no positive evidence to back up the claim, only philosophical assertions that seem to fall short. It is not just an assumption that the universe has a beginning, it is backed by incredibly hard evidence. If the universe has a beginning, then logically it must have a cause. There is positive evidence that this cause was intelligent due to the fine-tuning, and there is no positive evidence that this cause was from that of a singularity, nor that the fine-tuning is result of any multiverse. Now if this cause is intelligent, then logically this intelligent cause created the universe. If this cause created the universe, then logically it exists outside the universe. Now let's examine the properties of the universe shall we? The universe is composed of three-dimensional space, time, and matter/energy. Logically, if what caused the universe is intelligent and exists outside the universe; then it must be spaceless, timeless, and immaterial. That's just how the logic goes.

Now, is it really that outrageous of a theory based on the evidence, to suggest that an intelligent being created the universe and fine-tuned it for the sole purpose of creating life?

Finally, let's go to the bible. Is there a passage that says that "God is uncaused"? Is there a passage that claims that God existed "before time"? Or did you run across these attributes of God through a non-biblical source? You seem to be arguing for attributes of God that you couldn't possibly know. It sounds like wishful thinking to me.
Why certainly, I will go to the Bible.

2 Peter 3:8 said:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like a day.
Colossians 1:15-17 said:
He is image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
See, the thing is Starcrash, not only is the logic above complete, but it's supported by evidence. Both Biblically and scientific. And eve if we didn't know anything about God anyway, that wouldn't disprove his existence. Think of it this way, if you were to go into your backyard and dig up some ancient clay statue from some unknown ancient civilization, just because you don't know anything about the person who made the statue, would you deny that someone made it? Of course not. So without even knowing anything about God, where he came from, who he is, what are his attributes; it still doesn't disprove his existence. However nonetheless, we can know his attributes which I have presented above.

I hope and pray you read this and see the truth.

Peace and God Bless. :)
 
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CoooCaw

Guest
#36
Where? Does the bible actually say this or did you just assume it? I'm familiar with the Genesis narrative, and "time" is not one of the things God created. In fact, it describes all the events of creation happening within "days", which implies that time pre-existed the acts of creation.

if you read the Hebrew carefully, time is one of the things that began then.

Yom Echad literally means Day Number #1
 
Aug 22, 2013
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#37
The First Cause Argument, or Cosmological Argument, is internally contradictory and raises the following questions: Who or what created god?, Why should a hypothetical ‘cause’ have any of the common attributes of a god?, Why is the ‘cause’ a specific god?, Why can’t the universe be causeless too? and, most importantly, Why rule out all other possible explanations?

It is fundamentally a ‘god of the gaps’ approach. Our current lack of understanding concerning the Universe’s origins does not automatically mean ‘god’ holds any explanatory value. Metaphysical and theistic speculation are not immediately justified or correct simply because we lack a comprehensive scientific model. Uncertainty is the most valid position and one can honestly say “We just don’t know yet”.

The argument ignores the fact that our everyday understanding of causality has been arrived at via a posteriori inductive reasoning – which means it might not apply to everything. Time, for instance, appears to have begun with the Big Bang, so there might not have been any ’cause’ for the Universe to be an ‘effect’ of since there was probably no time for a ’cause’ to exist in. Applying concepts like time and causality to the Big Bang might be comparable to asking “What is north of the North Pole?” –ultimately nonsensical and incoherent. Furthermore, even if causality could be established it would not immediately imply the existence of a god, much less any particular one, as the properties and nature of the ’cause’ could forever remain a mystery or be naturalistic.

In fact, something can come from nothing and we are able to observe it in the form of virtual particles and quantum vacuum fluctuations. They explain why the early universe lacked uniformity and provided the seeds for the emergence of structure. These quantum phenomena are also causeless in the sense that they are objectively and irreducibly random, a fact confirmed by tests of non-local realism and Bell’s Theorem.

Note: Theists often state “God is outside of time”. This claim does not actually make their speculation correct. Instead, it brings with it a whole host of problems and may be immediately dismissed as being without basis and a type fallacy known as special pleading.
 
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danschance

Guest
#38
When a it can be demonstrated that life can come from primordial soup in a lab, I will then promise to never again say evolutionists are pompous, God hating, internet trolling, drooling nose pickers who are intellectually challenged dimwits who pretend to be logical. Science has yet to produce any form of life, plant or animal. At best they can manipulate existing DNA.

This makes the whole idea of a single celled living thing magically becoming alive where it had been random non-viable crap floating in the ocean. This is exactly what these idiots are trying to say each and every time they begin their trolling rants about how evolution is a proven fact and how God is nothing.

What kind of a intellectually challenged Lilliputian comes into a religious forum and then starts arguing about science fiction? Then they have the audacity to say we are not being logical. LOL
 
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reject-tech

Guest
#39
[h=2]Re: Is it logical to assume that nothing created the universe?
[/h]
I believe the endless speculation on the size of the universe, and the depth of the atom, are two witnesses to God's unfathomable omnipotence.

I think if we ever get to face God Himself and ask Him directly "where did YOU come from?"
His reply will be something like "I wish I could explain it to you."
 
G

GreenNnice

Guest
#40
Some people want to believe nothing created the universe. It all just magically happened. Nothing made it all happen.
Is that logical? Please explain.
Nothing could be farther from the Truth. :)