Is it logical to assume that nothing created the universe?

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Aug 24, 2013
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#81
The human body is far from perfect. Prone to arthritis, cancers, infections etc.

We are also prone to deadly disease and disabilities, Some of which can be passed down from generation to generation.

Go and tell someone with Spinabifida That their bodies are perfect, or tell it to a 5 month old baby born with AIDS. I'm sure they'll agree
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#82
The human body is far from perfect. Prone to arthritis, cancers, infections etc.

We are also prone to deadly disease and disabilities, Some of which can be passed down from generation to generation.

Go and tell someone with Spinabifida That their bodies are perfect, or tell it to a 5 month old baby born with AIDS. I'm sure they'll agree
Yes, this concludes that sin has degenerated that which was made perfect.
See how long people lived preflood.
How long shortly thereafter, and how long today.
If anything the confluence of disease and starvation in modern times annotates the degradation of the genepool.
 
Aug 24, 2013
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#83
The human body is far from perfect. It breaks down with age is Prone to arthritis, cancers, infections etc.

We are also prone to deadly disease and disabilities, Some of which can be passed down from generation to generation.

Go and tell someone with Spinabifida That their bodies are perfect, or tell it to a 5 month old baby born with AIDS. I'm sure they'll agree
 
Aug 22, 2013
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#86
It really doesn't. I don't have to reject an article in the New York Times just because it might describe an event using literary language, or use metaphor to allude to real events. It's simply disingenuous to say that because something is allegorical, it is not also true, or even to say just because the Bible contains allegory, therefore the whole Bible must also be allegory.

It's to do with text type, and what the actual use of allegory is designed to achieve. Whether you agree on their truth or not of any of the Bible, you will of course agree that Genesis 1-2 is demonstrably a different text type to Acts, or the Gospels, or 1&2 Chronicles, or Ecclesiastes, or even other parts of Genesis, yes? I'm not even talking at the level of theology, or philosophy, or ideology. At this point, I'm simply discussing the issue at the level of the structure and composition of the text, in relation to the time in which it was written.
Do you think the first 15 chapters of Leviticus are allegory?
They are all instructions about animal sacrifice from God.
Allegory or is that really what God wanted?
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
#87
Whenever something is disproved in science they throw it out like yesterday's newspaper. Whenever science disproves the Bible the passage becomes a metaphor.
you have such blind faith in the high priests of secular humanism -which you call scientists - it is cute :)
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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#88
Do you think the first 15 chapters of Leviticus are allegory?
They are all instructions about animal sacrifice from God.
Allegory or is that really what God wanted?
Nope. Ancient Israel carried out those sacrifices. You don't need a Bible to know that, although of course reading it one would recognise that Leviticus and Genesis (particular creation chapters of Genesis) are very different text types.

Now, the sacrifices are themselves a kind of allegory, of course, but that does not mean that the traditions themselves are fictitious, or that they are not what God intended them to do. That's what I mean by saying that the simple use of allegory does not mean that something did not happen in some way, or is not substantively true. It all depends on what point the allegory is supposed to serve, in a textual communicative sense.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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#90
Nope. Ancient Israel carried out those sacrifices. You don't need a Bible to know that, although of course reading it one would recognise that Leviticus and Genesis (particular creation chapters of Genesis) are very different text types.

Now, the sacrifices are themselves a kind of allegory, of course, but that does not mean that the traditions themselves are fictitious, or that they are not what God intended them to do. That's what I mean by saying that the simple use of allegory does not mean that something did not happen in some way, or is not substantively true. It all depends on what point the allegory is supposed to serve, in a textual communicative sense.
It's just really hard to believe that the almighty creator of the universe
commanded animal sacrifice. What a strange request?

It's even harder to worship a god that wanted people to make
sure they killed the right animals and sprinkled blood around
an alter seven times.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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#91
It's just really hard to believe that the almighty creator of the universe
commanded animal sacrifice. What a strange request?

It's even harder to worship a god that wanted people to make
sure they killed the right animals and sprinkled blood around
an alter seven times.
What specifically do you find hard about it?
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#92
It's just really hard to believe that the almighty creator of the universe
commanded animal sacrifice. What a strange request?

It's even harder to worship a god that wanted people to make
sure they killed the right animals and sprinkled blood around
an alter seven times.
That same God was brutalized for our transgressions.
He took upon himself(who knew no sin) the sin of the world.
That he will save those he chooses.
What is it about life and death that God controls that you find objectionable?
The animal sacrifices were a foreshadowing of His ultimate reunification.
- Yet you find it ugly, gross, and evil?
Well, remember, God made life, and He can raise it up again.
- Death is not a problem for God. Death seems like the end, to Him it's not.
He controls all the breath of every living creature.
- - Small potatoes to Him.
- - - Death to us; is a mere doorway to Him. - (Have you ever stepped through a doorway?)

All this blood a guts seems so serious to you.
- Life is serious.
God controls it all, and the good news is God is love.
You won't see it now, but you will later.
 
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Aug 22, 2013
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#93
What specifically do you find hard about it?
It's hard to reconcile the belief in a being that has the power and intelligence to create
the universe out of nothing and also believe that being gave orders regarding animal
sacrifice to humans. This coming from a supposedly all loving and perfect god.

It makes more sense to believe the animal sacrifice was just a man made ritual that
came from earlier religious and cultural practice.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#94
It's hard to reconcile the belief in a being that has the power and intelligence to create
the universe out of nothing and also believe that being gave orders regarding animal
sacrifice to humans. This coming from a supposedly all loving and perfect god.

It makes more sense to believe the animal sacrifice was just a man made ritual that
came from earlier religious and cultural practice.

That is out of your own ignorance about the bible and your own ideas overlaid on your 21st century perspective of what you think God should be. ..As if God should conform to your ideas and not you conform to God's ideals.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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#95
It's hard to reconcile the belief in a being that has the power and intelligence to create
the universe out of nothing and also believe that being gave orders regarding animal
sacrifice to humans. This coming from a supposedly all loving and perfect god.

It makes more sense to believe the animal sacrifice was just a man made ritual that
came from earlier religious and cultural practice.
Well, I certainly think the particular nature of animal sacrifice is context bound, in that it was something that made sense in the culture to what was given, and was particularly significant in how it differed to other surrounding culture. Historically and theologically, it has an eye to both the Jewish people and the other nations. And again, the idea of animal sacrifice in and of itself was not so important, but what it was ultimately describing in terms that could be clearly understood.

But I think the more fundamental question you raise is how God is compatible with sacrifice. How is love compatible with sacrifice? Can I ask why you think those are difficult to reconcile, so I have a better idea of where you're coming from?
 
Aug 22, 2013
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#96
Well, I certainly think the particular nature of animal sacrifice is context bound, in that it was something that made sense in the culture to what was given, and was particularly significant in how it differed to other surrounding culture. Historically and theologically, it has an eye to both the Jewish people and the other nations. And again, the idea of animal sacrifice in and of itself was not so important, but what it was ultimately describing in terms that could be clearly understood.

But I think the more fundamental question you raise is how God is compatible with sacrifice. How is love compatible with sacrifice? Can I ask why you think those are difficult to reconcile, so I have a better idea of where you're coming from?
Not important? Is that why only the first 15 chapters of Leviticus are dedicated to it? - sarcasm off.

You're right, I don't get the whole sacrifice thing. I think a better plan would involve no sort of
violence at all.

Now before you mention sin, I don't believe sin exists. I think it's just a religious concept made
up in order to control people and make them feel guilty. It's also not right for someone else to take
responsibility for another's actions i.e scapegoating Jesus who took our "sin" away - whatever
that means? Also, I shouldn't be held accountable because someone else a long time ago ate a
piece of magical fruit. To me this sounds absurd but that's what is in the Bible. No offense.

I guess I get it but I just don't buy it.
 
Aug 22, 2013
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#97
That is out of your own ignorance about the bible and your own ideas overlaid on your 21st century perspective of what you think God should be. ..As if God should conform to your ideas and not you conform to God's ideals.
Why would I want to conform to animal sacrifice rituals (Almost all of Leviticus)
killing of homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13) Slavery (Exodus) baby killing (Numbers,
Kings, Hosea, Samuel, and Psalms)?

I would hope you don't conform to these ideals as well?

The thing is I'm not ignorant of the Bible, I'm just honest about what it says.
It actually makes a good case for atheism.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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#98
Not important? Is that why only the first 15 chapters of Leviticus are dedicated to it? - sarcasm off.

You're right, I don't get the whole sacrifice thing. I think a better plan would involve no sort of
violence at all.

Now before you mention sin, I don't believe sin exists. I think it's just a religious concept made
up in order to control people and make them feel guilty. It's also not right for someone else to take
responsibility for another's actions i.e scapegoating Jesus who took our "sin" away - whatever
that means? Also, I shouldn't be held accountable because someone else a long time ago ate a
piece of magical fruit. To me this sounds absurd but that's what is in the Bible. No offense.

I guess I get it but I just don't buy it.
No, it is important. It's just not important in an of itself. The sacrifice of animals is pointing to something else, and has a different significance on this side of the Bible. Now, it's critically important to understand the concept, and it was also important for OT period people to follow the sacrificial system, of course. But the sacrifice of animals is not itself the end point. It is MAKING a point, and making it in such a way that no one could be in any doubt as to what was required of them, particularly in that time and place, and with that level of interaction between rival cultures. Again, I mostly flagged this because it tied back to the earlier discussion about creation.

If you are going to disregard sin as a concept a priori, then of course nothing I can say to argue the case will mean anything. :) However, I think we have a sense of justice, of engendering good and punishing evil, in our own society. I think a concept of sin, as it appears in the Bible, can be reasoned to from human morality at large. All sin is, at the most fundamental level, is injustice. Jesus talks about the Law being summed up as love the Lord your God, and Love your neighbour as yourself. Sin is not loving the Lord your God, and not loving your neighbour as yourself.

As to what you bring up about violence, we have a sometimes explicit, and if not, implicit idea of violence and force as well in our society. Society only holds together because of a near constant exchange of implicit threats, whether by the state or by individuals, through culture and through physicality. So it's disingenuous to say that you don't like something because it is 'violent'. If you, as a member of a human society, want to have a society where good things happen and bad things don't, then force/violence, either real or implied, must exist, simply because we exist in a world of competing forces. But this is not new. Secular philosophers since Weber and Durkheim have discussed this at length.

So its perhaps a little too simple to disregard something on the basis of mere 'violence', because to discuss the nature and need of that violence is nonsensical without regarding the context in which it is enacted, and what kinds of violence signify in a given time and place. This is why the concepts of justice, evil and sin are important to discuss - what is evil? Is there such a thing? What is the proper reaction to evil things, things we often viscerally respond to? Is justice a legitimate concept, and how do we reconcile true/legal 'justice' with very different emotive justice? Why do we have judges, instead of allowing victims to dictate the remedy? How does the idea of sin, or rebellion, or lawlessness, play into these concepts, and how does that manifest in the discussions of these issues in the Bible? These are all important questions that are worth asking, even if you don't believe any of it, because they inform the view of Christians, and are key to understanding of that view.

And your comment about the fruit is certainly an example of reductio ad absurdum. Adam and Eve's condemnation is not because they ate a fruit. It is because of what the fruit actually was, and actually meant. What does it mean for Adam and Eve to eat of the knowledge of good and evil? What are the reasons given for why they want that knowledge, and why are those reasons such a big deal? You can debate the text on its own terms, but to argue that you think its dumb on the basis of 'its a fruit' is as flimsy as me saying I could never vote Democrat because Obama wears dumb ties (I have no idea if he wears dumb ties, that's just what came into my head :p). The fact of fruit is neither here nor there, ultimately. What is the actual point being made? What is the reasoning behind the concept of sin?
 
D

danschance

Guest
#99
Why would I want to conform to animal sacrifice rituals (Almost all of Leviticus)
killing of homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13) Slavery (Exodus) baby killing (Numbers,
Kings, Hosea, Samuel, and Psalms)?

I would hope you don't conform to these ideals as well?

The thing is I'm not ignorant of the Bible, I'm just honest about what it says.
It actually makes a good case for atheism.
At least you are being honest about your true intentions for being here.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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The fool in his heart says there is no God.
God laughs them to scorn.
They fear death.
God's justice awaits.
The almighty hammer comes down, and they are no more.
 
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