Rich Man & Lazarus

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Sep 7, 2013
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#1
Rich Man & Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31


Introduction

This area of scripture is consistently under debate, both in interpretation and form. For the most part, the “form” is guilty of the differences in interpretation. What is meant by “form” is, that there are two very divided manners in which this passage is generally taken.

1) Many feel this is a literal story of an event that had already occurred, (literal/historical form). 2) There are also, many who feel this is a parable of a prophetic event, and/or instructional parable, (parabolic/symbolic form).

This discourse began, (Luke 14:1-17:10), by Jesus after He’d arrived to eat at the house of one of the chief Pharisees, with other Pharisees and lawyers were present, (Luke 14:3). After questioning them directly on matters of law, they remained silent. Jesus responded to their silence with a parable, (Luke 14:7-11).

In this parable he hints at elements of “the rich man and Lazarus”, there is a meal in which we aren’t to exalt ourselves, by going before the master in the house’s highest room. Instead we are to “shame” ourselves and begin in the lowest room. He then follows that parable with a relative statement that also hints strongly of the story of the “rich man and Lazarus”. Here is what he said;

“ Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:” (Luke 14:12-13)

Immediately after Jesus repeats himself, in parable form, Luke 14:16-24.
Why is Jesus speaking to them in parable?

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. …All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them" (Mat 13:10-11,34).

When speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, as He was in Luke 15 &16, He never spoke the mysteries of His kingdom to them except in parables. The words of Luke 15:3 set the precedence, "He spake this parable to them...”, they established what Jesus said thereafter would be in parable.

Please note, that He was speaking to those who murmured against Him, (Luke 15:2) and they continued to listen and scoff at him, (Luke 16:14). After their eavesdropping was made plain He began speaking directly to them again, (Luke 16:15). The first indication that He changed His focus was in Luke 17:1. At that point it seems He spoke only to His disciples.

Chapter 16 of Luke is about stewardship, yet some seem locked in to the idea that this passage(v.19-31) holds literal clues to the state of the dead and/or heaven and hell.

If one were to take every Biblical parable literally, we would find plenty of items that would be difficult to explain in literal terms. Such as in Jdg. 9:7-15, Jotham spoke in a parable that was completely imaginary, about talking trees and brambles.

Also, in Eze. 23:1-4, he records the Parable of Two Sisters, in which proper names are used in parabolic symbolism. As you can see, it would not be sensible to give literal equivalents to symbolic terms used in a fictitious parable.

Jesus was never recorded using the phrases “a certain man”, (Greek = tis anthros), or “a certain rich man”, (Greek = tis plousios anthros), except in parable. Even though not one author ever recorded him using either phrase outside of parables some still maintain that Luke 16:19 is the exception. Even more compelling is, the only 3 times “a certain rich man” was used, was by Jesus, and all 3 only recorded by Luke.

The Parable

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making good cheer in splendour every day.

Remember, He’s speaking to the Pharisee’s and this “rich man” is portrayed wearing clothing of the High Priest of the Israelite people(Exo. 28:5).


Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Here we see the beggar down with the dogs, waiting for crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table. These same symbolic terms have been used by Christ before, which helps reveal the identity of the beggar, the crumbs, and the rich man.

Matt. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

Here we see that the Gentile lady is being symbolized as the “dogs”, the “crumbs of bread” as the gospel message, and the “masters“ as the Israelites/Jews.

Remember, the bread is the word, and Christ is the “bread”, (John 6:35). Christ came to minister to the Israelites, (Mat. 15:24, 1Cor. 9:20), yet this Gentile woman was asking Christ to share himself. Like the beggar, she was desiring “crumbs” from the “masters” table.

The Israelites were spiritually rich, (Luke 6:24-25, Rom. 11:12), for they had the one true message of God, and they had been commissioned to take the Word to the Gentiles, (Isa. 49:6).

Isa. 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, FOR A LIGHT OF THE GENTILES;

But, they didn’t spread the message, they hoarded it instead. Remember, the focus of Luke 16 is stewardship. They failed to be good stewards with the Word that God had entrusted to them. They considered Gentiles to be lower than them. “Dogs” and “unclean” were terms used when speaking of them, (Act 10:28, Mark 7:27-28, Matt. 15:26,27).

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
“It came to pass”(v.22) indicates the passing of time and that this scene has been taken to a future conclusion as the result of their poor stewardship.

When does the Bible tell us angels will collect dead people? The Bible indicates that the angels gather the righteous dead at Christ's second coming.

Mat.24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Here’s where we see 4 items found together in only two places in the Bible, one of which we just saw in v.22 & 23.
1. Angels taking someone to a good place.
2. Abraham is also in the good place.
3. Someone being tormented in a bad place.
4. The person in the bad place is able to see Abraham.

Notice carefully below, that again it is Luke who records the same imagery.

Luke 13:28 There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING of teeth, when ye shall SEE ABRAHAM, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

This comes from the Parable of the Strait Gate, (also see Mat. 7:13,14). And, as one can plainly tell this is referring to the elect being gathered by the angels from the four corners of the earth, (Mat.24:31, Mark 13:27), at the coming of Christ.

The torment that will occur to the wicked, at the coming of Christ, is said to cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth according to the parable found in Luke 13. These 4 items found together in only these two places; is one of the strongest indications that this is not a literal story, but yet a future prophetic event, specifically the second coming.

Those being tormented “see Abraham”(Isa. 52:10), while they are thrust out! The twist is; we now see the beggar, (Gentiles) in the bosom of Abraham. The father of Israel takes the Gentiles into his bosom and the rich man, (Jew’s/Israelite‘s), dies and is in torment.

Christ couldn’t haven’t been much clearer, salvation didn’t belong only to the Jews, and they had been poor stewards with the commission God had bestowed upon them.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Notice he is asking “Father Abraham”, showing that he is still placing assurance of salvation in their bloodline, instead of God. This can be also seen in John 8:37-42, where they told Christ that Abraham was their Father. They have placed Abraham in substitution of God as proof of their salvation.

Now, when judgment is finalized and the torments of this bad steward have begun, he is asking for a drop of water. Ironically similar to the Gentiles hoping for just a crumb from the masters table.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

After all the spiritual and physical gifts and prosperity God had lavished on them for centuries, they were greedy with the divine word of God. They simply, reaped what they sowed (Job 4:8), which is the heart of the message found in this parable. Those who try to keep salvation for themselves, will lose it.

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

The great gulf is a source of much discussion, we see that it separates those who are tormented, and those who are comforted. I‘ve shown above that this is imagery is consistent with a portrait of the second coming, (Luke 13:28-30). If this is true than we should be able to find the equivalent of this gulf in other passages which speak of the second coming.

Remember the virgins with no oil in their lamps, (Mat. 25:1-13), the door was shut and they were left outside pleading to get in, the Lord told them he didn’t know them. Sound familiar. Fixed gulf/shut door separating the good from the bad. The bad guys pleading for help, the good guys denying help. Same story told with different images

Also the same image in Mat. 25:31-46. Christ comes with His angels and gathers everyone, then he separates the sheep from the goats. He creates a divide/gulf/door between the good guys and bad guys. Again, tormented bad guys plead for their fate, the good guys deny them. Same images over and over,

In Mat. 8:11-12 very similar imagery again. The bad guys get separated by being placed in the outer darkness and they are tormented. It also says that many will come from the east and west, remember the passages that said the angels will gather the elect from the corners of the earth, same reference. Then it says those that are gathered sit down with Abraham. Lastly, who are the ones separated and tormented? None other than the Children of the kingdom, the Jews/Israelites.

Like I said, once you realize that the imagery is a portrait of the second coming, suddenly the images don’t appear unique. Instead you realize this parable is actually are repetitive images that we’ve been shown a hundred times.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


Here again, we see the rich man(Jews) praying to father Abraham, this of course is forbidden by the second commandment(Exo. 20:33) and condemned by Christ to the Pharisees, (John 8). Remember, it is the Pharisees to whom He is speaking this parable.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

The rich man is asking for five of his brethren to be warned, not to come to this place of torments. Abraham has informed the rich man what his fate is and what the consequences for his actions are, (v.25,26). We see that he now wants Lazarus to be sent back, to “testify” to those five brethren. But, it is to late, the “great gulf” has been ”fixed”, their probation is long over.

The “five brethren” may be referring to the five full blooded brothers of Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun, (Gen. 29:32-30:20). This would make sense because we’ve already seen evidence that the Jews/Israelites are being symbolized by the “rich man” .

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


This brilliant parable has many terms and concepts intertwined to express a moral truth, which is the principal behind a Biblical parable. It was a stern warning and rebuke to the Jewish nation, regarding their poor stewardship and the consequences for their iniquities.

It was also a prophetic glimpse at the resurrection of Lazarus which was the sealing of Christ’s fate, which they still refused to believe, (John 11:46-53, Luke 16:31). Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well.
 
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danschance

Guest
#2
It is not a parable. It is a story that really occurred.

Parables teach a single truth of the kingdom.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#3
It does teach a truth. Perhaps instead of just saying I am wrong, please point out anything I wrote and address the error and specifically show my error in thinking. I gave quite a thorough list proofs as to why it is a parable.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
114
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#4
Hi there KAdamW,

I can see that you believe that the account of Lazarus and the Rich man is not a literal historical account.

One thing that needs to be mentioned though are these two things:

1) Whenever Jesus was telling a parable, He began by saying: "Now learn a parable" or "Hear another parable. "

The account of the Rich man and Lazarus did not begin in either of the ways just mentioned.

2) In all Parables, there is not one time where a name of an actual person is given.

And in this very account given in Luke 16:19-31, the names of two people are given (Abraham and Lazarus).

So the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable, but it is an actual historical account which took place.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#5
I see you did not read even the full introduction. Both points you claim are disproved before i even got to the discussion of the actual parable. Pleas read it first and show me specifically my error.
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#6
In determining if this is a true happening to illustrate a biblical truth, or a parable is to decide on a very fundamental truth about bible. Some people say it is only a spiritual book and we must not think there is a connection with the physical.

I think that it is very fundament that we know there is a connection between the physical and spiritual. What we do physically has a profound effect on the spiritual realm.

If we read the bible as a history book, we are missing the message, but in the same way if we do not connect the physical with the spiritual meaning we are also missing the message.

I think this should be read as an actual happening that illustrates a spiritual truth.
 
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danschance

Guest
#7
1) This story is not identified in scripture as a parable.

We have examples of many parables being explicitly labeled as a parable in scripture.
And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: Luke 8:4

And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
Luke 12:16

And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. Luke 13:6

And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them,Luke 14:7
NOTE: These scriptures are all from Luke and the story of Lazarus in Luke is never mentioned as being a parable.

2) The people mentioned in parables are not once named as they are hypothetical---not real.

3) The story of Lazarus and the rich man do not fit the normal pattern of parables.
a) Parables are set in the earthly realm, but this story is mostly about the after life.
b) Parables illustrate by means of metaphors a single kingdom truth. The Story of Lazarus and the rich mean teach several truths.

4) People who claim this is a parable are motivated by their own aberrant theology to down play elements of the after life. They most often attempt to explain away the existence of a soul not attached to a body.

5) It is of no consequence if this is a story about real people or not. It clearly teaches us about the after life. It dove tails into other scriptures. Either way, it does not violate the doctrines of historic Christianity.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#8
In determining if this is a true happening to illustrate a biblical truth, or a parable is to decide on a very fundamental truth about bible. Some people say it is only a spiritual book and we must not think there is a connection with the physical.

I think that it is very fundament that we know there is a connection between the physical and spiritual. What we do physically has a profound effect on the spiritual realm.

If we read the bible as a history book, we are missing the message, but in the same way if we do not connect the physical with the spiritual meaning we are also missing the message.

I think this should be read as an actual happening that illustrates a spiritual truth.
Those who think the soul does not survive the death of the body must explain away this story. They do so by claiming it is a parable and therefore not about the spirit of man and that is plain old everyday scripture twisting.
 
Sep 7, 2013
183
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#9
The Greek word παραβολή (parabolē) is used a total of 50 times in the New Testament (13 times in Mark, 17 in Matthew, 18 in Luke, and twice in Hebrews, but never in John).

Now go find a list of parables and/or count them for yourself, alot more than 50. I am not sure who told you that all parables are called parable right before they were spoken. But that is just blatantly untrue. It amazes me how many peopkle say that when I know they have read many and accept many to be parables without a mention of the word.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#10
The Greek word παραβολή (parabolē) is used a total of 50 times in the New Testament (13 times in Mark, 17 in Matthew, 18 in Luke, and twice in Hebrews, but never in John).

Now go find a list of parables and/or count them for yourself, alot more than 50. I am not sure who told you that all parables are called parable right before they were spoken. But that is just blatantly untrue. It amazes me how many peopkle say that when I know they have read many and accept many to be parables without a mention of the word.
I never said all parables are identified as such in scripture. I did however, list 4 previous parables in the same book as being internally identified as being parables specifically.

Again, it does not matter if it is a parable or not. What does matter is this is about the after life of the wicked and the righteous in old testament times.
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
1,698
96
48
#11
Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well.
As in we could be "unsaved"?
 
D

danschance

Guest
#12
Rich Man & Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31


Introduction

This area of scripture is consistently under debate, both in interpretation and form. For the most part, the “form” is guilty of the differences in interpretation. What is meant by “form” is, that there are two very divided manners in which this passage is generally taken.

1) Many feel this is a literal story of an event that had already occurred, (literal/historical form). 2) There are also, many who feel this is a parable of a prophetic event, and/or instructional parable, (parabolic/symbolic form).

This discourse began, (Luke 14:1-17:10), by Jesus after He’d arrived to eat at the house of one of the chief Pharisees, with other Pharisees and lawyers were present, (Luke 14:3). After questioning them directly on matters of law, they remained silent. Jesus responded to their silence with a parable, (Luke 14:7-11).

In this parable he hints at elements of “the rich man and Lazarus”, there is a meal in which we aren’t to exalt ourselves, by going before the master in the house’s highest room. Instead we are to “shame” ourselves and begin in the lowest room. He then follows that parable with a relative statement that also hints strongly of the story of the “rich man and Lazarus”. Here is what he said;

“ Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:” (Luke 14:12-13)

Immediately after Jesus repeats himself, in parable form, Luke 14:16-24.
Why is Jesus speaking to them in parable?

"And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. …All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake He not unto them" (Mat 13:10-11,34).

When speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, as He was in Luke 15 &16, He never spoke the mysteries of His kingdom to them except in parables. The words of Luke 15:3 set the precedence, "He spake this parable to them...”, they established what Jesus said thereafter would be in parable.

Please note, that He was speaking to those who murmured against Him, (Luke 15:2) and they continued to listen and scoff at him, (Luke 16:14). After their eavesdropping was made plain He began speaking directly to them again, (Luke 16:15). The first indication that He changed His focus was in Luke 17:1. At that point it seems He spoke only to His disciples.

Chapter 16 of Luke is about stewardship, yet some seem locked in to the idea that this passage(v.19-31) holds literal clues to the state of the dead and/or heaven and hell.

If one were to take every Biblical parable literally, we would find plenty of items that would be difficult to explain in literal terms. Such as in Jdg. 9:7-15, Jotham spoke in a parable that was completely imaginary, about talking trees and brambles.

Also, in Eze. 23:1-4, he records the Parable of Two Sisters, in which proper names are used in parabolic symbolism. As you can see, it would not be sensible to give literal equivalents to symbolic terms used in a fictitious parable.

Jesus was never recorded using the phrases “a certain man”, (Greek = tis anthros), or “a certain rich man”, (Greek = tis plousios anthros), except in parable. Even though not one author ever recorded him using either phrase outside of parables some still maintain that Luke 16:19 is the exception. Even more compelling is, the only 3 times “a certain rich man” was used, was by Jesus, and all 3 only recorded by Luke.

The Parable

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, making good cheer in splendour every day.

Remember, He’s speaking to the Pharisee’s and this “rich man” is portrayed wearing clothing of the High Priest of the Israelite people(Exo. 28:5).


Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Here we see the beggar down with the dogs, waiting for crumbs to fall from the rich man’s table. These same symbolic terms have been used by Christ before, which helps reveal the identity of the beggar, the crumbs, and the rich man.

Matt. 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

Here we see that the Gentile lady is being symbolized as the “dogs”, the “crumbs of bread” as the gospel message, and the “masters“ as the Israelites/Jews.

Remember, the bread is the word, and Christ is the “bread”, (John 6:35). Christ came to minister to the Israelites, (Mat. 15:24, 1Cor. 9:20), yet this Gentile woman was asking Christ to share himself. Like the beggar, she was desiring “crumbs” from the “masters” table.

The Israelites were spiritually rich, (Luke 6:24-25, Rom. 11:12), for they had the one true message of God, and they had been commissioned to take the Word to the Gentiles, (Isa. 49:6).

Isa. 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, FOR A LIGHT OF THE GENTILES;

But, they didn’t spread the message, they hoarded it instead. Remember, the focus of Luke 16 is stewardship. They failed to be good stewards with the Word that God had entrusted to them. They considered Gentiles to be lower than them. “Dogs” and “unclean” were terms used when speaking of them, (Act 10:28, Mark 7:27-28, Matt. 15:26,27).

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
“It came to pass”(v.22) indicates the passing of time and that this scene has been taken to a future conclusion as the result of their poor stewardship.

When does the Bible tell us angels will collect dead people? The Bible indicates that the angels gather the righteous dead at Christ's second coming.

Mat.24:31 And he shall send HIS ANGELS with a great sound of a trumpet, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send HIS ANGELS, and SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Here’s where we see 4 items found together in only two places in the Bible, one of which we just saw in v.22 & 23.
1. Angels taking someone to a good place.
2. Abraham is also in the good place.
3. Someone being tormented in a bad place.
4. The person in the bad place is able to see Abraham.

Notice carefully below, that again it is Luke who records the same imagery.

Luke 13:28 There shall be WEEPING AND GNASHING of teeth, when ye shall SEE ABRAHAM, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall SIT DOWN IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

This comes from the Parable of the Strait Gate, (also see Mat. 7:13,14). And, as one can plainly tell this is referring to the elect being gathered by the angels from the four corners of the earth, (Mat.24:31, Mark 13:27), at the coming of Christ.

The torment that will occur to the wicked, at the coming of Christ, is said to cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth according to the parable found in Luke 13. These 4 items found together in only these two places; is one of the strongest indications that this is not a literal story, but yet a future prophetic event, specifically the second coming.

Those being tormented “see Abraham”(Isa. 52:10), while they are thrust out! The twist is; we now see the beggar, (Gentiles) in the bosom of Abraham. The father of Israel takes the Gentiles into his bosom and the rich man, (Jew’s/Israelite‘s), dies and is in torment.

Christ couldn’t haven’t been much clearer, salvation didn’t belong only to the Jews, and they had been poor stewards with the commission God had bestowed upon them.

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Notice he is asking “Father Abraham”, showing that he is still placing assurance of salvation in their bloodline, instead of God. This can be also seen in John 8:37-42, where they told Christ that Abraham was their Father. They have placed Abraham in substitution of God as proof of their salvation.

Now, when judgment is finalized and the torments of this bad steward have begun, he is asking for a drop of water. Ironically similar to the Gentiles hoping for just a crumb from the masters table.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

After all the spiritual and physical gifts and prosperity God had lavished on them for centuries, they were greedy with the divine word of God. They simply, reaped what they sowed (Job 4:8), which is the heart of the message found in this parable. Those who try to keep salvation for themselves, will lose it.

Mat. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence.

The great gulf is a source of much discussion, we see that it separates those who are tormented, and those who are comforted. I‘ve shown above that this is imagery is consistent with a portrait of the second coming, (Luke 13:28-30). If this is true than we should be able to find the equivalent of this gulf in other passages which speak of the second coming.

Remember the virgins with no oil in their lamps, (Mat. 25:1-13), the door was shut and they were left outside pleading to get in, the Lord told them he didn’t know them. Sound familiar. Fixed gulf/shut door separating the good from the bad. The bad guys pleading for help, the good guys denying help. Same story told with different images

Also the same image in Mat. 25:31-46. Christ comes with His angels and gathers everyone, then he separates the sheep from the goats. He creates a divide/gulf/door between the good guys and bad guys. Again, tormented bad guys plead for their fate, the good guys deny them. Same images over and over,

In Mat. 8:11-12 very similar imagery again. The bad guys get separated by being placed in the outer darkness and they are tormented. It also says that many will come from the east and west, remember the passages that said the angels will gather the elect from the corners of the earth, same reference. Then it says those that are gathered sit down with Abraham. Lastly, who are the ones separated and tormented? None other than the Children of the kingdom, the Jews/Israelites.

Like I said, once you realize that the imagery is a portrait of the second coming, suddenly the images don’t appear unique. Instead you realize this parable is actually are repetitive images that we’ve been shown a hundred times.

Luke 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


Here again, we see the rich man(Jews) praying to father Abraham, this of course is forbidden by the second commandment(Exo. 20:33) and condemned by Christ to the Pharisees, (John 8). Remember, it is the Pharisees to whom He is speaking this parable.

Luke 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

The rich man is asking for five of his brethren to be warned, not to come to this place of torments. Abraham has informed the rich man what his fate is and what the consequences for his actions are, (v.25,26). We see that he now wants Lazarus to be sent back, to “testify” to those five brethren. But, it is to late, the “great gulf” has been ”fixed”, their probation is long over.

The “five brethren” may be referring to the five full blooded brothers of Judah, Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun, (Gen. 29:32-30:20). This would make sense because we’ve already seen evidence that the Jews/Israelites are being symbolized by the “rich man” .

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


This brilliant parable has many terms and concepts intertwined to express a moral truth, which is the principal behind a Biblical parable. It was a stern warning and rebuke to the Jewish nation, regarding their poor stewardship and the consequences for their iniquities.

It was also a prophetic glimpse at the resurrection of Lazarus which was the sealing of Christ’s fate, which they still refused to believe, (John 11:46-53, Luke 16:31). Most importantly for those reading it today, it is a reminder for the commissioned individual not to be “highminded”, or we might just find ourselves “cut off”, and “thrust out” of the kingdom of God as well.
The odd part of this is that you took 13 scripture verses into a 53 paragraph post. That means for every verse you posted more than four paragraphs. That tells me you are trying really, really hard on overtime to prove something.
 

damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
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#13
:) The op was also very interesting to read, ty
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#14
Dan I used scripture repeatedly and often to show and prove what this parables means. I used the Bible to interpret the Bible. You have shown nothing in scripture to prove anything you have said.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#15
As in we could be "unsaved"?
Why would you say that? The terms are from scripture and parables. If you feel that scripture indicates thet then that would be your own interpretation of it. I never mentioned or addressed the subject of OSAS.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#16
The odd part of this is that you took 13 scripture verses into a 53 paragraph post. That means for every verse you posted more than four paragraphs. That tells me you are trying really, really hard on overtime to prove something.
It's a Bible study. Someone who studies and writes about scripture are known to produce and even publish them.
 

Huckleberry

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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#17
Why would you say that? The terms are from scripture and parables. If you feel that scripture indicates thet then that would be your own interpretation of it. I never mentioned or addressed the subject of OSAS.
I didn't say it. I was asking if you did.
Please, elaborate on the last paragraph of your original post,
since you designated it "most importantly".
 
D

danschance

Guest
#18
It's a Bible study. Someone who studies and writes about scripture are known to produce and even publish them.

I think what you did, was to redefine this story to fit your own theological paradigm. I bet you do not believe the soul can survive death. I bet you are SDA or JW or similar.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#19
I never said all parables are identified as such in scripture. I did however, list 4 previous parables in the same book as being internally identified as being parables specifically.

Again, it does not matter if it is a parable or not. What does matter is this is about the after life of the wicked and the righteous in old testament times.

My comment about not all parables being labeleed as parable ws addressed to chosenbyhim.

Well on your other comment, I will have to disagree. If you think it is literal, then that may cause you to have a skewed perception on some points.
 
Sep 7, 2013
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#20
I think what you did, was to redefine this story to fit your own theological paradigm. I bet you do not believe the soul can survive death. I bet you are SDA or JW or similar.
Why are you trying to put me in a box. Why can't you simply address any part of my study with a specific reason that you may think I am wrong with the scripture to back your logic. Attacking me personally and trying to label me instead of having a Bible discussion does not profit either of us.