Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[zone]

Where did you get the 68th week? The messiah is cut off after the 69th week.

here:

After (immediately after according to the hebrew) 69 weeks. Messiah is cut off.

The rest of the stuff mentioned which occurs after are longer then 7 years.

This either again God lied, He forgot what would occure after, He got his timeline wrong. or there is somethign going on between the end of the 68th and the start of the 70th.

which is just why i asked for clarification - that's all.
chop suey - gotta go.

 

[Elin]

not surprisingly, there are 2 currently active threads re : Dispensationalism.

this thread is to examine the theological and exegetical problems in Dispensationalism.

....

here's a post from the other thread, which is an apologetic for the Dispensational scheme:


my question is: is the above excerpt from the pro-dispensational link:

TRUE? OR FALSE?

is this true?:

IT IS PATENTLY FALSE.

"the church and the nation of Israel are two separate entities which God has managed via two distinct plans"

what's wrong with that statement?

Other than being totally contra to the testimony of the NT word of God, nothing I guess.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

like....D'OH!
good idea.

i know one of the words means Jacob.
which is Israel.

i know they had a lot of trouble when Jesus came and the city and the people were eventually destroyed.

hmmm...Jacob's Trouble.

Jeremiah 30:7
How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it.

now i reckon it would be good to see about Jeremiah and what he was doing and where he was and what he was saying.
didn't Daniel get stirred up by Jeremiah's prophecy?


but i'm off for dinner, as well.
hope i can think and use chopsticks at the same time

The problem is. Jeremiahs prophesy was never fulfilled.

proofs.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]‘For it shall come to pass in that day,’ Says the Lord of hosts, ‘That I will break his yoke from your neck,

Never happend. Even when they returned, they were under the yoke of gentiles nations. The yoke was never broken.

And will burst your bonds; Foreigners shall no more enslave them.

Again, Never happened. They were still slaved of the medes, then the greeks, then the romans.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall serve the Lord their God,

Again, Not yet fulfilled. They never served God. the end of their sin had not yet been complete. They still played the harlot and served the created, not the creator (a false religion based on works, not faith)

And David their king, Whom I will raise up for them.

Self explanatory. Their king was the gentiles puppet kings placed over them


[SUP]10 [/SUP]‘Therefore do not fear, O My servant Jacob,’ says the Lord, ‘Nor be dismayed, O Israel; For behold, I will save you from afar, And your seed from the land of their captivity. Jacob shall return, have rest and be quiet, And no one shall make him afraid.

Again, Never happened. Israel has lived in fear since daniels time. And have never had peace.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you,

The gentiles nations )kingdoms) have not been completely destroyed. According to john. this does not happen until right before Christs return

 

[eternally-gratefull]

here:




which is just why i asked for clarification - that's all.
chop suey - gotta go.

lol. thanks for finding my typo. Then again yu should have known I meant the 69th, Which is what I said it was in the sentance before then.

My mistake. I admit.. sorry

 

[Elin]

Where does the Bible even says a third temple will be built? The Bible talks of two but three?

Revelation 11:1-4 KJV
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God,

The Church, those who believe in Jesus Christ, is the Temple of God (1Co 3:16).

and the altar, and them that worship therein. [2] But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. [3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. [4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Church, those who believe in Jesus Christ, is the Temple of God (1Co 3:16).

Yes it is. No one said this temple would be a temple of God. The second temple was never used for Gods purpose. It was made in sin, and continued to be used for sin.

 

[starfield]

The time of Jacob's trouble is in the future Zone. Not the past. Read Matthew 24, Mark 13, Dan. 9, Rev. 4-19, and Jer. 30.

But Jesus said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34), thus that generation He was speaking to saw its fulfilment – the signs of the end of the Jewish age and destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

Furthermore, Zone the time of Jacob's trouble has to be in the future.


Why? Because if the time of Jacob's trouble happened in the first century like you assert, that would mean the Second Coming already took place, and also that the Millennial Kingdom took place, which of course, both events have not happened yet.


Because after the Millennial Kingdom, the earth and all its elements are burned with fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10-12). And then the Great White Throne Judgment takes place in outer space.


Therefore, that is just more evidence from the Holy Scriptures that the time of Jacob's trouble has not taken place yet, but that it will in the near future after the Rapture of the church.


The Second Coming of Jesus Christ has not happened yet. And the Millennial Kingdom has definitely not happened yet.


The Millennial Kingdom takes place after the Lord Jesus Christ's Second Coming and after the Judgment of the Nations.


The time of Jacob's trouble takes place before the Second Advent of Jesus Christ and His Millennial Kingdom where He rules and reigns for a thousand years.

 

[ChosenbyHim]

But Jesus said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34), thus that generation He was speaking to saw its fulfilment – the signs of the end of the Jewish age and destruction of Jerusalem in the first century.

Starfield, are you saying that Daniel's 70th week took place back in the first century???

 

[chatter23]

?

as in - it means the next day kinda thing?

or immediately following the 69th week is the cutting off week (the 70th)?

either way, you still have Jesus cut off sometime into the 70th week.

so is your gap, or clock stop, 3.5 years of time reserved for the future? or 7 years?

cuz the 7 years has to come from the 70th week, right? that's where we get that from.

what i am not clear on is why God stopped the clock...is it because Jesus was cut off instead of being made King, and that's when God turned His attention to the Mystery?

where is any of that written?

God never intended Jesus to become king, He was meant to be the savior.
He turned His attention to the mystery so not all could not enter, but, a few. "Few are chosen".

 

[weakness]

Well we are told the prince who will come will commit an abomination. How? if there is no temple.

We are told Jesus himself will rule out of a temple.

what temple.

You say there is no third temple. but that only comes from your interpretation of scripture. You can;t PROVE there will not be one. only speculate.

thus your question has been answered. Even though you might not like, or even agree with the answer. [/QUOTEWhat if the abomination that makes desolate is set up in the Temple not made with hands?? Little children ,it is the last times and you have heard that anti-christ shall come, even now there are many anti-christs. He that saeth I know him and keeps not his comandments is a lier. If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.Who is a lier but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ .He is the anti christ. John is not just speaking of saying with the mouth,for anybody can say Jesus is come in the flesh they draw with their mouths but their heart is far from me.the confession of Jesus is speaking of saying and doing. Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there first come a falling away, and the man of sin revealed...4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. For the mystery of iniquity does already work. This is very sobering to me ,but makes sense in hundreds of ways scripturaly Know you not that we are the temple of God if the Holy Spirit dwells within you? Maybe this isn't the total interpretation of scripture but it certainly is one of them. One of my thoughts about the temple and the abomination that makes desolate.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God never intended Jesus to become king, He was meant to be the savior.
He turned His attention to the mystery so not all could not enter, but, a few. "Few are chosen".

Yet the OT speaks of a savior and a king.

the mystery is that everyone thought it would happen at the same time. and were the same event

 

[starfield]

Starfield, are you saying that Daniel's 70th week took place back in the first century???

Of course....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EWhat if the abomination that makes desolate is set up in the Temple not made with hands?? Little children ,it is the last times and you have heard that anti-christ shall come, even now there are many anti-christs. He that saeth I know him and keeps not his comandments is a lier. If we say we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness we lie and do not the truth.Who is a lier but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ .He is the anti christ. John is not just speaking of saying with the mouth,for anybody can say Jesus is come in the flesh they draw with their mouths but their heart is far from me.the confession of Jesus is speaking of saying and doing. Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come except there first come a falling away, and the man of sin revealed...4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. For the mystery of iniquity does already work. This is very sobering to me ,but makes sense in hundreds of ways scripturaly Know you not that we are the temple of God if the Holy Spirit dwells within you? Maybe this isn't the total interpretation of scripture but it certainly is one of them. One of my thoughts about the temple and the abomination that makes desolate.

Then it would make no sense. Jesus said when you see it. Run to the hills. And he also said this event would start a great tribulation.

If it can not be seen. Then it would not be able to show people these events.

Yes I know I am the temple in my body. But that is not what Jesus is talking about in matt 24. He is speaking of a literal event happening in a physical building.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course....

Then why has Jesus not returned? Why has all life on earth not yet been in danger of being destroyed? Why was Ww1 and WW2 more severe in tribulation than 70 AD, when Jesus said no time would ever be that sever again?

 

[Elin]

hi EG;

"there is something going on between the end of the 68th and the start of the 70th."< you mean the 69th?

TOO MUCH!

 

[starfield]

Then why has Jesus not returned? Why has all life on earth not yet been in danger of being destroyed? Why was Ww1 and WW2 more severe in tribulation than 70 AD, when Jesus said no time would ever be that sever again?

I never said Jesus' second coming happened in the first century. That is yet to occur.
Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said Jesus' second coming happened in the first century. That is yet to occur.

Yet jesus said it will happen immediately following this tribulation. Not 2000 years later

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
Mark 13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

I agree.. We can not know the hour. But it does not mean we can not know the time. As jesus said, When ypi see the trees start to sprout, You know spring is near. When you see these things occure (*abomination, Great tribulation) Then yuo know the time of his return is near.

You have the sprouts starting almost 2000 years ago. which means we are still in tribulation. and have been since 70 AD, Or it has not yet occured.

 

[weakness]

Then it would make no sense. Jesus said when you see it. Run to the hills. And he also said this event would start a great tribulation.

If it can not be seen. Then it would not be able to show people these events.

Yes I know I am the temple in my body. But that is not what Jesus is talking about in matt 24. He is speaking of a literal event happening in a physical building. [/QUOTE Like I said this is just one of my thoughts about the temple!! And it can be seen if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.Dan. and such as do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt by flatteries, but the people that do know their God shall be strong and do exploits. And they that understand among the people shall instruct many. I have probably said to much already ,thought some food for thought might be good.

 

[SarahM777]

[/COLOR]Show me in the bible where the word trinity is used?

Give me a break. If the abomination occurs in the future/ THERE MUST BE A THIRD TEMPLE MUST THERE NOT? That is MORE THAN AMPLE PROOF!!





Believe me, There are more issues with your belief system. I have studied them all..

Jesus tells the Peter,James,John and Andrew when THEY see the abomination that causes desolation they are to flee from Jerusalem. You keep to force those verses to say something they do not say.

Guess what,Jesus uses that same imagery that is used in the old testament.

Luke 21

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Isaiah 19

A prophecy against Egypt:
See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

Isaiah 20

3 Then the Lord said, “Just as my servant Isaiah has gone stripped and barefoot for three years, as a sign and portent against Egypt and Cush,[a] 4 so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushiteexiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt’s shame.

Nahum 1

[h=3]The Lord’s Anger Against Nineveh[/h]2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God;
the Lord takes vengeance and is filled with wrath.
The Lord takes vengeance on his foes
and vents his wrath against his enemies.
3 The Lord is slow to anger but great in power;
the Lord will not leave the guilty unpunished.
His way is in the whirlwind and the storm,
and clouds are the dust of his feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and dries it up;
he makes all the rivers run dry.
Bashan and Carmel wither
and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.
5 The mountains quake before him
and the hills melt away.
The earth trembles at his presence,
the world and all who live in it.
6 Who can withstand his indignation?
Who can endure his fierce anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire;
the rocks are shattered before him.


Jesus is talking about the coming JUDGEMENT on Jerusalem. It the same language as used in the OT.