Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[Elin]

Ageed?

So your saying this happened?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,”

Will they not be uprooted at the destruction of the earth in 2Pe 3:11?

So "no longer'" does not mean forever, no matter when you think it "will be" fulfilled.

 

[Elin]

lol. SHow me ONE PLACE where I have EVER said that salvation is outside the bride.

You are not the source of my knowledge regarding dispensationalism.

come on. You made an accusation against me and my belief, PROVE IT!

Or prove you have just made a false accusation against me, My belief, and the many people who believe as me!

I did not get my statement from you, and I have proven the statement is false.

 

[zone]

Nah history has nothing to do with Revelation at all,never mind that most of the symbols in Revelation are also used in the OT to define what those same symbols mean in Revelation. Gotta throw all those out and redefine what those symbols mean.

There is more in response to Green on the other chapters. More later.

what's taking so long?

 

[SarahM777]

Revelation Chapter 8



A. Seventh Seal: Prelude to the Seven Trumpets (8:1-6)
Verse 2: The seven angels who were given the seven trumpets are said to “stand before God.” Is it possible that one of these seven angels was Gabriel, as he testified to Zechariah (Luke 1:19) that he “stands in the presence of God”? Steve Gregg, editor of Revelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary), says, “For Israel, the trumpet was an instrument used to rally the troops for war or to warn of an enemy invasion. Likening the upcoming judgments to the sounding of trumpets suggests that God Himself is making war against His enemies in apostate Israel” (p. 146).Verses 3-5: The “prayers of all the saints” were offered together with “much incense” on the golden altar that was in front of the throne pictured in heaven. It seems clear that the judgments that followed were, in part, a direct result of these prayers. Sam Storms sees a direct link between the cries of the martyrs for vengeance (Rev. 6:10) and God’s response here in these verses. As a result of the censer filled “with fire from the altar” being thrown to the earth, there were “peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.” One application to take away from this passage, then, is that God hears the prayers of His people and acts in a sovereign way in His own timing and according to His will. The thunder, lightning, and rumblings are again reminiscent of the giving of the Old Covenant through Moses at Mount Sinai (Exodus 19:16), just as in Rev. 4:5.John Piper said in 1994 that this text “portrays the prayers of the saints as the instrument God uses to usher in the end of the world with great divine judgments… [It] is an explanation of what has happened to the millions upon millions of prayers over the last 2,000 years as the saints have cried out again and again, ‘Thy kingdom come…’” Sam Storms, a Historicist, agrees with Piper’s cause/effect premise, but disagrees with him regarding the timing of God’s actions:

It may well be that the trumpets, no less than the sixth and seventh seals, are God’s answer to the prayers of his people in 6:9-11 for vindication against their persecutors. If so, this would strongly militate against the futurist interpretation which relegates the trumpets to the final few years of history just before the second coming. In other words, it seems unlikely that God would act in response to that prayer only at the end of history while passing by and leaving unscathed more than sixty generations of the wicked.​

Sam Storms goes on to say that most of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments “describe the commonplaces of history.” The Preterist response, of course, is that the prayers of the first-century martyrs who cried out “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before You will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Rev. 6:10-11) were vindicated within one generation when God poured out His judgment on Jerusalem in 70 AD (cf. Matt. 23:29-38; Luke 13:33-35; Rev. 17:6, 18:20, 24). The Historicist idea that God has continued to act in various ways upon the prayers of His people throughout history certainly applies.B. First Trumpet: Vegetation Struck (8:7)Hail and fire, mixed with blood, is thrown to the earth. In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case (See, for example, the post on Revelation 1, where we examined the phrase “tribes of the earth” in verse 7, which is often thought to be worldwide in scope. When this prophecy is compared, though, to its counterpart in Zechariah 12:10-14, it’s clear that every one of those tribes belonged to the land of Israel).Steve Gregg notes that “[as] the first four seals [Rev. 6:1-8] were set off from the latter three, in that each of the first group revealed a horseman, so the first four trumpets are set off from the last three, in that the latter are referred to as ‘Woes.’ The entire series, however, is concerned with the Jewish War of A.D. 66-70, ‘the Last Days’ of the Jewish commonwealth” (p. 148). Steve quotes from Jay Adams, who notes that during this period “the land suffered terribly. The plagues are reminiscent of those in Egypt, at the birth of the Hebrew nation. Here they mark both the latter’s cessation, and the birth of a new nation, the kingdom of God (I Pet. 2:9, 10).”[1]We are told that a third of the earth (the land of Israel), the trees, and the green grass were burned up in this judgment. If meant to be taken literally, this account from Josephus points to a very plausible fulfillment during the five-month siege upon Jerusalem leading up to its destruction in 70 AD (Steve Gregg, pp. 151-152):

And now the Romans, although they were greatly distressed in getting together their materials, raised their banks in [21] days, after they had cut down all the trees that were in the country that adjoined to the city, and that for ninety furlongs round about, as I have already related. And, truly, the very view itself of the country was a melancholy thing; for those places which were before adorned with trees and pleasant gardens were now become a desolate country every way, and its trees were all cut down: nor could any foreigner that had formerly seen Judea and the most beautiful suburbs of the city, and now saw it as a desert, but lament and mourn sadly at so great a change; for the war had laid all signs of beauty quite waste (Wars, VI:1:1).​

C. Second Trumpet: The Seas Struck (8:8-9)Verse 8: John was shown “something like a great mountain burning with fire …thrown into the sea.” Steve Gregg asserts that there is both a symbolic and a literal sense in which this trumpet can be applied to the destruction of Jerusalem and Israel in 66-70 AD: [1] It’s symbolic, in that in Biblical prophecy a mountain often refers to a government or a kingdom, even as it did for Israel (e.g. Exodus 15:17). The sea is a frequent prophetic “symbol of the Gentile nations, in contrast to ‘the land,’ signifying Israel. The symbolism could predict the Jewish state collapsing and the resultant dispersion of the Jews throughout the Gentile world.” (97,000 Jews were sold into slavery by Rome in 70 AD.) [2] It’s also literal in that Jerusalem was burned with fire by the Romans in 70 AD (pp. 154, 156).Verses 8-9: John was also shown a third of the sea becoming blood, with the result being that a third of the living creatures in the sea died and a third of the ships were also destroyed. For those open to the idea of Revelation having been written before 70 AD,[2]this most definitely calls to mind some of the battles during the Jewish-Roman War (66-70 AD). The Roman Emperor Nero officially declared war on Israel in February 67 AD in response to the Jewish rebellion, and by the spring of that year his general Vespasian had marched into the land of Judea with 60,000 men. In the coming months more than 150,000 Jews were killed in Judea and Galilee. The Jewish historian Josephus described Galilee at one point as “filled with fire and blood.” Steve Gregg (pp. 156, 158) highlights one battle in particular, recorded by Josephus, whose words, says Gregg, “seem almost as if they were calculated to present the fulfillment of this trumpet judgment.” This battle took place on the Sea of Galilee (Tiberius):

And for such [Jews] as were drowning in the sea, if they lifted their heads up above the water they were killed by darts [arrows], or caught by the [Roman] vessels; but if, in the desperate case they were in, they attempted to swim to their enemies, the Romans cut off either their heads or their hands; and indeed they were destroyed after various manners everywhere… one might then see the lake all bloody, and full of dead bodies, for not one of them escaped. And a terrible stink, and a very sad sight there was on the following days over that country; for as for the shores, they were full of shipwrecks, and of dead bodies all swelled; and as the dead bodies were inflamed by the sun, and putrefied, they corrupted the air [and the conditions were so miserable that even the Roman perpetrators felt pity].​

With such carnage, it’s easy to see how many creatures in the Sea of Galilee were poisoned and did not survive, and how a third of its ships could have been destroyed. In my recent term paper on Jerusalem’s destruction in 70 AD, I also referenced a book written by George Peter Holford in 1805 (“The Destruction of Jerusalem”). The following is an excerpt from my paper, based on his writing, of another battle in the port city of Joppa:

One of the first towns Vespasian crushed was Joppa, because its inhabitants had provoked his men by their frequent piracies at sea. The Jews there tried to flee from Vespasian on their ships, but Vespasian was helped by a tremendous storm that blew in just as they began to flee. Their vessels were crushed against each other and against the rocks, and when this slaughter was complete more than 4,200 bodies were strewn along the coast and a very long stretch of the coast was stained with blood.

Revelation Chapter 8 | Pursuing Truth

cont​

 

[SarahM777]

D. Third Trumpet: The Waters Struck (8:10-11)This passage speaks of a “great star” falling from heaven, “burning like a torch,” causing many deaths because a third of the rivers and springs of water become wormwood (bitter). Some futurists interpret this trumpet judgment symbolically, as referring either to a future Antichrist (e.g. Arno Gaebelein) or a future Pope (e.g. H.A. Ironside) who causes much corruption (Steve Gregg, pp. 161, 163). Other futurist interpreters (e.g. Henry Morris, Charles Ryrie, John Walvoord) see this as a literal reference to a burning meteorite or “a giant set of meteors” that will enter earth’s atmosphere “with contaminating influence upon the rivers and waters” of the entire planet (p. 165). Steve Gregg’s articulation of the Preterist understanding is helpful:

The turning of fresh water sources bitter and toxic may be in part a literal result of the decaying corpses that lay in the Sea of Galilee and in the river as the result of war. However, this fouling of the waters has symbolic significance, occurring as it does here to the nation of Israel. There is probably an intentional allusion to the promise (and implied threat) God made to Israel when they first came out of Egypt. When they came to the bitter waters of Marah, in response to Moses’ casting a tree into the waters, God made the waters sweet and wholesome… However, God’s promise/warning implies that their disobedience to Him will result in His placing upon them the same plagues that He placed on the Egyptians—the waters can be made bitter again [cf. Exodus 15:25-26, Deuteronomy 28:59-60]… It is noteworthy that throughout the pages of Revelation, the plagues that come upon the apostates are comparable to those with which God afflicted the Egyptians in the days of Moses. The star which was burning like a torch (v. 10) is reminiscent of the tree cast into the waters by Moses, but has the opposite effect (pp. 160, 162).​

David Chilton adds,

The name of this fallen star is Wormwood, a term used in the Law and the Prophets to warn Israel of its destruction as a punishment for apostasy (Deut. 29:18; Jer. 9:15; 23:15; Lam. 3:15, 19; Amos 5:7). Again, by combining these Old Testament allusions, St. John makes his point: Israel is apostate, and has become an Egypt; Jerusalem has become a Babylon; and the covenant-breakers will be destroyed, as surely as Egypt and Babylon were destroyed (Gregg, p. 164).[3]​

[The following information in blue font was edited into this post on October 26, 2009:]
To further illustrate this point, it’s also instructive to consider the test for adultery under the Law of Moses, as recorded in Numbers 5:11-31. This test was to be administered by a priest in cases where a married woman was suspected of defiling herself in an adulterous manner (Numbers 5:11-14). The priest would mix dust from the floor of the tabernacle into holy water contained in a vessel, to create “the water of bitterness that brings the curse” (vss. 16-18). The woman would then take the following oath:

If no man has lain with you, and if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while you were under your husband’s authority, be free from this water of bitterness that brings the curse. But if you have gone astray, though you are under your husband’s authority, and if you have defiled yourself, and some man other than your husband has lain with you, then (let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse, and say to the woman) the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the Lord makes your thigh fall away and your body swell. May this water that brings the curse pass into your bowels and make your womb swell and your thigh fall away (vss. 20-22).​

The woman would then say, “Amen. Amen,” and the curses would be written into a book and washed off into the bitter water. The woman would then be made to drink the water (vss. 23-26), with the following possible results:

And when he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has broken faith with her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall swell, and her thigh shall fall away, and the woman shall become a curse among her people. But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be free and shall conceive children (vss. 27-28).​

If this imagery and this procedure is what is mirrored by the third trumpet judgment, then this is one more indication that Israel had been found to be apostate. Many people died from the bitter water because they were indeed guilty of spiritual adultery, and were found to be in a state of defilement.

E. Fourth Trumpet: The Heavens Struck (8:12-13)Verse 12: Regarding the common contention of Futurists that these judgments must literally take place in the future, i.e. a third of the light of the sun, moon, and stars will cease to shine; a practical question is in order. Since this is not to be the final plague, and other judgments must follow this one, is it possible that any life would continue to survive for even a few days, let alone months, under those conditions? We know that life exists on this planet because the sun basically maintains its present intensity. A significant increase or decrease in its intensity would either cause mankind to burn or freeze. Alternatively, David Chilton writes,

The imagery here was long used in the prophets to depict the fall of nations and national rulers (cf. Isa. 13:9-11, 19; 24:19-23; 34:4-5; Ezek. 32:7-8, 11-12; Joel 2:10, 28-32; Acts 2:16-21. [He quotes F.W. Farrar (1831-1903), who wrote that] “ruler after ruler, chieftain after chieftain of the Roman Empire and the Jewish nation was assassinated and ruined. Gaius, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, all died by murder or suicide;[4] Herod the Great, Herod Antipas, Herod Agrippa, and most of the Herodian Princes, together with not a few of the leading High Priests of Jerusalem, perished in disgrace, or in exile, or by violent hands. All these were quenched suns and darkened stars” (Gregg, pp. 166, 168).​

Verse 13: As terrible as these plagues are, a flying eagle with a loud voice announces that the three remaining trumpet judgments are even more woeful. Their target again is “those who dwell on the earth,” another reference to the land of Israel, as discussed earlier. We will see these woes beginning in chapter 9. Steve Gregg quotes from Adam Clarke (1732-1815), who he says is a historicist but “accurately puts forth the preterist position”:

These woes are supposed by many learned men to refer to the destruction of Jerusalem: the first woe—the seditions among the Jews themselves; the second woe—the besieging of the city by the Romans; the third woe—the taking and the sacking of the city, and burning the Temple. This was the greatest of all the woes, as in it the city and Temple were destroyed, and nearly a million men lost their lives.

Revelation Chapter 8 | Pursuing Truth
​

 

[SarahM777]

Revelation Chapter 9


A. Fifth Trumpet: Locusts from the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 9:1-12)Verse 1: The one who was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit was “a star [that had] fallen from heaven to earth.” Might this have anything to do with the great star that fell from heaven in Rev. 8:10? Another possibility for the identity of this star, clearly a person or entity, would be that it is Lucifer (See Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:9-10). David Chilton notes that “the bottomless pit,” referenced in verse 1, is referred to a total of seven times in Revelation (9:1, 2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3). He adds,

In Biblical symbolism, the Abyss is the farthest extreme from heaven (Genesis 49:25; Deuteronomy 33:13) and from the high mountains (Psalm 36:6). It is used in Scripture as a reference to the deepest parts of the sea (Job 28:14; 38:16; Psalm 33:7) and to subterranean rivers and vaults of water (Deuteronomy 8:7; Job 36:16), whence the waters of the Flood came (Genesis 7:11; 8:2; Proverbs 3:20; 8:24), and which nourished the kingdom of Assyria (Ezekiel 31:4, 15). The Red Sea crossing of the covenant people is repeatedly likened to a passage through the Abyss (Psalm 77:16; 106:9; Isaiah 44:27; 51:10; 63:13). The prophet Ezekiel threatened Tyre with a great desolation of the land, in which God would bring up the Abyss to cover the city with a new Flood, bringing its people down to the pit in the lower parts of the earth (Ezekiel 26:19-21), and Jonah spoke of the Abyss in terms of excommunication from God’s presence, a banishment from the Temple (Jonah 2:5-6). The domain of the Dragon (Job 41:31; Psalm 148:7; Revelation 11:7; 17:8), the prison of the demons (Luke 8:31; Revelation 20:1-3; cf. 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), and the realm of the dead (Romans 10:7) are all called by the name Abyss.St. John is thus warning his readers that hell is about to break loose upon the Land of Israel; as with Tyre of old, the Abyss is being dredged up to cover the Land with its unclean spirits. Apostate Israel is to be cast out of God’s presence, excommunicated from the Temple, and filled with demons. One of the central messages of Revelation is that the Church tabernacles in heaven (see Revelation 7:15; 12:12; 13:6); the corollary of this is that the false church tabernacles in hell (David Chilton, Days of Vengeance, 1987).​

That the land of Israel is indicated here is further seen in the references to “the earth” (also properly translated as “the land”) in verses 3-4. In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case (See, for example, the post on Revelation 1, where we examined the phrase “tribes of the earth” in verse 7, which is often thought to be worldwide in scope. When this prophecy is compared, though, to its counterpart in Zechariah 12:10-14, it’s clear that every one of those tribes belonged to the land of Israel).
Q: In verse 4, we see that the locusts are told not to harm the grass, green plants, or trees, but only those without the seal of God on their foreheads. Where have we seen this before?
A: We saw it in Revelation 7:1-4, with the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish believers before the destruction began. Chilton notes that in Judea it was typical for locusts to appear in the land anytime between May and September, a period of five months. In this case they were to remain and attack relentlessly for five months. Regarding verse 4, Chilton reminds us that “[t]he vegetation of the earth is specifically exempted from the destruction caused by the ‘locusts.’ This is a curse on disobedient men.”
Q: What is the likely significance of the five month period cited in verse 5?
A: The siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 AD lasted five months. It covered the time span of May to September, the exact time of the year when locusts normally would appear in Judea.[1]The “Models of Eschatology” blog site (moderated by a person identified as “wbdjr” for the United Christian Church in Richmond, Virginia) has this to say about the five month siege:

Five months is the time period that the Roman siege lasted around Jerusalem. During this time the Romans didn’t try to take the city, but let the work of the siege slowly weaken the city defenders and bring conditions upon them that could fit the definition of a great tribulation. During the siege the Zealots inside Jerusalem set fire to the food stocks that were stored up thinking that without food the inhabitants would be more compelled to join them in fighting the Romans. As food disappeared people were compelled to eat leather from belts, shoes, and anywhere else it could be found.[2]​

Kenneth Gentry (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 248) also states, quoting from F.F. Bruce (New Testament History, p. 382): “Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in April, 70. The defenders held out desperately for five months, but by the end of August the Temple area was occupied and the holy house burned down, and by the end of September all resistance in the city had come to an end.”

Q: Where else in Scripture do we see a similar vision of a destroying army which is likened to locusts?
A: We see it in Joel 1:2-7; 2:1-11.Verse 6: We are told that people would “seek death and…not find it” and “long to die, but death [would] flee from them.” Did this happen in 70 AD? Josephus records that during the height of the siege surviving Jews “poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes” as were seen during the siege. Thousands were literally starved to death, over a period of months and not just weeks. As we saw in our study on Revelation 6, Josephus also records that when the temple was burned in August 70 AD, many survivors retreated to Upper Jerusalem and some put on happy faces “in expectation, as they said, of death to end their miseries.” This longing for death is reminiscent of what Jesus said in Luke 23:27-30 (cf. Rev. 6:16).Kenneth Gentry (ibid, pp. 247-248) sees verses 1-12 as speaking strictly of demonic activity, and verses 13-19 as speaking of the invasion of a physical army. His reference to Jesus’ words in Matthew is most compelling:

Revelation 9:1-12 clearly seems to speak of demons under the imagery of locusts (perhaps due to their destructive power and the gnawing agony they cause). A great many commentators agree that, stripped of the poetical imagery, the locusts are really demons and their sting is that of the pain and influence of demonic oppression. This seems to be quite clearly the case in light of their origin (the bottomless pit, 9:1-3), their task (they afflict only men, 9:4), and their ruler (“the angel of the abyss,” surely Satan, 9:11). Were this a reference to the Roman army (or some later army), their restriction from killing (Rev. 9:5, 10) would be inexplicable in that the Roman army actually did destroy thousands of Jews in its assault. But if these are demons, and the physical killing is left to the armies (which are seen later, Rev. 9:13ff), the picture begins to come into focus.If demons are in view in this passage, this fits well with requirements of the early date [for the writing of the book of Revelation, i.e. before 70 AD] and the prophetic expectation of Christ in Matthew 12:38-45. There Christ teaches that during His earthly ministry He had cast out demons in Israel, but because of Israel’s resistance to His message, the demons will return in greater numbers within the “generation.”​

While I agree that this text does not speak of literal locusts present during this judgment, I see the possibility that in addition to a picture of demonic activity there are also hints of physical attacks, i.e. both happening concurrently. In verse 7, it is said that they appeared as “horses prepared for battle.” Their faces were “like human faces” (verse 7b), they had “hair like women’s hair,” they had breastplates of iron, and the noise made by their “wings” was “like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle” (verse 9). There are enough literal references mixed in to possibly portray a picture of 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century-type warfare. Steve Gregg, editor ofRevelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary), has this to say (pp. 182, 184):

Though the locusts themselves are no doubt a portrayal of armies of demons that afflicted the whole society of the Jews during their conflicts with the Romans, the description is perhaps mingled with some features of the demonized zealots who made life so miserable for their fellow Jews during the siege. That they have hair like women’s hair [v. 8] may actually be a reference to their transvestitism, as Josephus describes:“With their insatiable hunger for loot, they ransacked the houses of the wealthy, murdered men and violated women for sport; they drank their spoils with blood, and from mere satiety and shamelessness gave themselves up to effeminate practices, plaiting their hair and putting on women’s clothes, drenched themselves with perfumes and painting their eyelids to make themselves attractive. They copied not merely the dress, but also the passions of women, devising in their excess of licentiousness unlawful pleasures in which they wallowed as in a brothel. Thus they entirely polluted the city with their foul practices. Yet though they wore women’s faces, their hands were murderous. They would approach with mincing steps, then suddenly become fighting men, and, whipping out their swords from under their dyed cloaks, they would run through every passerby” (Wars, IV:9:10).​

Regarding the appearance of this army, David Chilton adds,

The frightening description of the demon-locusts in Revelation 9:7-11 bears many similarities to the invading heathen armies mentioned in the prophets (Jeremiah 51:27; Joel 1:6; 2:4-10; cf. Leviticus 17:7 and 2 Chronicles 11:15, where the Hebrew word for demon is hairy one). This passage may also refer, in part, to the Satanic gangs of murderous Zealots that preyed on the citizens of Jerusalem, ransacking houses and committing murder and rape indiscriminately. Characteristically, these perverts dressed up as harlots in order to seduce unsuspecting men to their deaths. One particularly interesting point about the description of the demon army is St. John’s statement that “the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.” That is the same sound made by the wings of the angels in the Glory-Cloud (Ezekiel 1:24; 3:13; 2 Kings 7:5-7); the difference here is that the noise is made by fallen angels.

Revelation Chapter 9 | Pursuing Truth

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[GreenNnice]

the pretrib rapture isn't in the bible green.
for the 50,000th time.
not there. at all. anywhere.

don't need history for that.

It's VERY scary to believe there COULD be a rapture, isn't it ohzone ?

-----------
sarasara, believe what you want, as I said, we're 'sheep' in the same pasture, His. I will not judge you of your salvation from your belief in festivals and moons and signs and wonders of Rev. 6,9, etc. explained for the FUTURE, unclean meats and eschatology, etc. etc. EVER !

That's your doctrine, it has NOTHING to do with your completeness in Christ !


But, I will continue, as He leads me, to give you holy light to see of what The Truth is actually saying and re-writing biblical history in some Iraeneus or Eusebius tainted philosophy of 'wisdom' is foolish, indeed, , like saying John wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos in 65 AD (or sometime before 70 AD and temple destoryed). That would mean what then? That Peter's writings ,which came AFTER Paul's writings, and, Jude's and Hebrews ALL were written before 70 AD

Really ??

It's important to keep in mind that Revelation chapter 22 is Holy Spirit speaking through John writing that there can be no words taken from or added to the bible.

You try so neatly (desperately?) to house the word of God in a timeline that fits in your own doctrine. Careful

You say that the 3rd temple, spoken of in Revelation 11, is not said 'built by human hands,' those words, so, what happens when other parts of the bible, like the part about 1 Corinthians 13 that don' mention SPECIFICALLY that the completion of the CANON OF SCRIPTURE are the word of God (bible), yet, you make that out in your own MIND to be exactly what that 'fullness' or, 'perfect' that comes is, that means, therefore, to you, that prophesying and tongues and knowledge all cease and desisted by humans' speaking by the holy inspired Spirit in them.

1 Cor. 13:

9 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness (the perfect) comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Do you see God face to face now (I thought, Scripture says we can't see His face or we will die now? ), sarasara, or, is that just figurative for the bible making you be able to, uhhh, I don't know, you finish the sentence . I can't even explain something that doesn't make any sense to me. Face to face to me means seeing someone face to face. Just does. It's logical. It's reading words at FACE value.

 

[SarahM777]

Cont

​B. Sixth Trumpet: Angels from the Euphrates (Rev. 9:13-21)

David Chilton remarks: “John’s opening words about the sixth Trumpet (Revelation 9:13) again reminds us that the desolations wrought by God in the earth are on behalf of His people (Psalm 46), in response to their official, covenantal worship: the command to the sixth angel is issued by a voice ‘from the four horns of the golden altar [i.e., the incense altar] which is before God.’ The mention of this point is obviously intended to encourage God’s people in worship and prayer, assuring them that God’s actions in history proceed from his altar, where He has received their prayers.”
Q: How many were to be killed in this plague?
A: One third of mankind (Again, in context, I understand “mankind” to refer to the population of Judea).We are told that four angels would be released from the river Euphrates where they had been bound in preparation for this very day and hour. “Wbdjr” has this to say regarding what took place in 70 AD:

Roman legions are usually associated with infantry, but four legions were drawn from the area of the Euphrates under one Oriental King, Antiochus of Commagene, and another Oriental King, Sohemus, sent a contingent both of which were mostly cavalry which like their Parthian cousins to the north is the way they usually fought. These were literally fierce hordes of barbarian horsemen which would have been terrifying to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Releasing the four angels prepared for that hour appears to reference the releasing of the four legions who would kill not a third of the population of the entire planet, but of the area around Judea.​

Says David Chilton,

In verses 14-16, the sixth angel is commissioned to release the four angels who had been “bound at the great river Euphrates”; they then bring against Israel an army consisting of “myriads of myriads.” The Euphrates River to the north formed the boundary between Israel and the fearsome, pagan forces from Assyria, Babylon, and Persia which God used as a scourge against His rebellious people (cf. Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 11:24; Joshua 1:4; Jeremiah 6:1, 22; 10:22; 13:20; 25:9, 26; 46:20, 24; 47:2; Ezekiel 26:7; 38:6, 15; 39:2). It should be remembered too that the north was the area of God’s throne (Isaiah 14:13); and both the Glory-Cloud and God’s agents of vengeance are seen coming from the north, i.e., from the Euphrates (cf. Ezekiel 1:4; Isaiah 14:31; Jeremiah 1:14-15). Thus, this great army from the north is ultimately God’s army, and under His control and direction, although it is also plainly demonic and pagan in character (on the “binding” of fallen angels, cf. 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6). God is completely sovereign, and uses both demons and the heathen to accomplish His holy purposes (1 Kings 22:20-22; Job 1:12-21; of course, He then punishes the heathen for their wicked motives and goals which led them to fulfill His decree; see Isaiah 10:5-14).​

Sam Storms adds,

G. B. Caird points out that “to the Roman the Euphrates was the eastern frontier, but to the Jew it was the northern frontier of Palestine, across which Assyrian, Babylonian, and Persian invaders had come to impose their pagan sovereignty on the people of God. All the scriptural warnings about a foe from the north, therefore, find their echo in John’s blood-curdling vision” (122). On this see especially Isa. 5:26-29; 7:20; 8:7-8; 14:29-31; Jer. 1:14-15; 4:6-13; 6:1,22; 10:22; 13:20; Ezek. 38:6,15; 39:2; Joel 2:1-11,20-25; as well as Isa. 14:31; Jer. 25:9,26; 46-47 (esp. 46:4,22-23); 50:41-42; Ezek. 26:7-11.​

Jay Adams (Westminster Theological Seminary) is one scholar who concurs that Israel’s past conquerors had traditionally crossed the Euphrates before wreaking their destruction. He notes that Josephus (Wars 7:1:3) told of Roman armies stationed along the Euphrates, including the famed 10th Legion, before they made their final advance on Jerusalem in 69-70 AD (Steve Gregg, ibid, p. 186)

.Verse 16: The number of mounted troops was 200 million. Futurist interpreters often insist that this number is to be taken literally, and a number of them have hypothesized that this must refer to a future army that will come out of China. Sam Storms says that in the Greek, the expression denotes “a ‘double myriad of myriads,’ a ‘myriad’ typically equivalent to 10,000.” It seems that this number is simply symbolic of a very large and overwhelming army. It’s also possible that there were 200 million demons unleashed upon the land of Judea. David Chilton sums up the significance of this number with the following statements:

An innumerable army is advancing upon Jerusalem from the Euphrates, the origin of Israel’s traditional enemies; it is a fierce, hostile, demonic force sent by God in answer to His people’s prayers for vengeance. In short, this army is the fulfillment of all the warnings in the law and the prophets of an avenging horde sent to punish the covenant breakers. The horrors described in Deuteronomy 28 were to be visited upon this evil generation (see especially verses 49-68).​

Q: What did the survivors of these plagues not repent of?
A: They did not repent of [1] the works of their hands [2] worshiping demons [3] idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood [4] murders [5] sorceries [6] sexual immorality [7] thefts.

Josephus says this of mid-first century Jerusalem:

…neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was from the beginning of the world… I suppose that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against those villains, the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed (Kenneth Gentry, ibid, p. 249).​

David Chilton notes that Jerusalem (see the reference to the “great city” in Rev. 11:8, and then compare with 16:19, 17:18, 18:10, 18:16-21) is described in Revelation 18 as “a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird” (18:2). He adds:

The entire generation became increasingly demon-possessed; their progressive national insanity is apparent as one reads through the New Testament, and its horrifying final stages are depicted in the pages of Josephus’ The Jewish War: the loss of all ability to reason, the frenzied mobs attacking one another, the deluded multitudes following after the most transparently false prophets, the crazed and desperate chase after food, the mass murders, executions, and suicides, the fathers slaughtering their own families and the mothers eating their own children. Satan and the host of hell simply swarmed throughout the land of Israel and consumed the apostates.

Revelation Chapter 9 | Pursuing Truth
​

 

[GreenNnice]

It's VERY scary to believe there COULD be a rapture, isn't it ohzone ?

-----------
sarasara, believe what you want, as I said, we're 'sheep' in the same pasture, His. I will not judge you of your salvation from your belief in festivals and moons and signs and wonders of Rev. 6,9, etc. explained for the FUTURE, unclean meats and eschatology, etc. etc. EVER !

That's your doctrine, it has NOTHING to do with your completeness in Christ !


But, I will continue, as He leads me, to give you holy light to see of what The Truth is actually saying and re-writing biblical history in some Iraeneus or Eusebius tainted philosophy of 'wisdom' is foolish, indeed, , like saying John wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos in 65 AD (or sometime before 70 AD and temple destoryed). That would mean what then? That Peter's writings ,which came AFTER Paul's writings, and, Jude's and Hebrews ALL were written before 70 AD

Really ??

It's important to keep in mind that Revelation chapter 22 is Holy Spirit speaking through John writing that there can be no words taken from or added to the bible.

You try so neatly (desperately?) to house the word of God in a timeline that fits in your own doctrine. Careful

You say that the 3rd temple, spoken of in Revelation 11, is not said 'built by human hands,' those words, so, what happens when other parts of the bible, like the part about 1 Corinthians 13 that don' mention SPECIFICALLY that the completion of the CANON OF SCRIPTURE are the word of God (bible), yet, you make that out in your own MIND to be exactly what that 'fullness' or, 'perfect' that comes is, that means, therefore, to you, that prophesying and tongues and knowledge all cease and desisted by humans' speaking by the holy inspired Spirit in them.

1 Cor. 13:



Do you see God face to face now (I thought, Scripture says we can't see His face or we will die now? ), sarasara, or, is that just figurative for the bible making you be able to, uhhh, I don't know, you finish the sentence . I can't even explain something that doesn't make any sense to me. Face to face to me means seeing someone face to face. Just does. It's logical. It's reading words at FACE value.

No offense, sarasara, but, read what someone has just posted for you to read before quickly posting something else to usurp what's been said by them. That's just biblical discussion forum etiquette

 

[SarahM777]

It's VERY scary to believe there COULD be a rapture, isn't it ohzone ?

-----------
sarasara, believe what you want, as I said, we're 'sheep' in the same pasture, His. I will not judge you of your salvation from your belief in festivals and moons and signs and wonders of Rev. 6,9, etc. explained for the FUTURE, unclean meats and eschatology, etc. etc. EVER !

That's your doctrine, it has NOTHING to do with your completeness in Christ !


But, I will continue, as He leads me, to give you holy light to see of what The Truth is actually saying and re-writing biblical history in some Iraeneus or Eusebius tainted philosophy of 'wisdom' is foolish, indeed, , like saying John wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos in 65 AD (or sometime before 70 AD and temple destoryed). That would mean what then? That Peter's writings ,which came AFTER Paul's writings, and, Jude's and Hebrews ALL were written before 70 AD

Really ??

It's important to keep in mind that Revelation chapter 22 is Holy Spirit speaking through John writing that there can be no words taken from or added to the bible.

You try so neatly (desperately?) to house the word of God in a timeline that fits in your own doctrine. Careful

You say that the 3rd temple, spoken of in Revelation 11, is not said 'built by human hands,' those words, so, what happens when other parts of the bible, like the part about 1 Corinthians 13 that don' mention SPECIFICALLY that the completion of the CANON OF SCRIPTURE are the word of God (bible), yet, you make that out in your own MIND to be exactly what that 'fullness' or, 'perfect' that comes is, that means, therefore, to you, that prophesying and tongues and knowledge all cease and desisted by humans' speaking by the holy inspired Spirit in them.

1 Cor. 13:



Do you see God face to face now (I thought, Scripture says we can't see His face or we will die now? ), sarasara, or, is that just figurative for the bible making you be able to, uhhh, I don't know, you finish the sentence . I can't even explain something that doesn't make any sense to me. Face to face to me means seeing someone face to face. Just does. It's logical. It's reading words at FACE value.

Why would it be a problem if all the Bible was written BEFORE AD 70? Paul was believed to be killed in about 67 AD,Peter in about 67 AD,and James was killed about 44 AD,which means they were killed before Jerusalem was destroyed. That does all point to the fact that they wrote it all before AD 70 Green.

Besides you asked about some of things that John spoke about and I am trying to show you that in history it does appear that most of Revelation has been fulfilled. It's your choice what you do with it. Agree or disagree.

Besides Josephus does record what did happen in Jerusalem in the Jewish wars so deal with it.

 

[GreenNnice]

sarasara, you REALLY have to WANT to believe in something to think that the 6th trumpet is as this man you quoted aspires:

“John’s opening words about the sixth Trumpet (Revelation 9:13) again reminds us that the desolations wrought by God in the earth are on behalf of His people (Psalm 46), in response to their official, covenantal worship: the command to the sixth angel is issued by a voice ‘from the four horns of the golden altar [i.e., the incense altar] which is before God.’ The mention of this point is obviously intended to encourage God’s people in worship and prayer, assuring them that God’s actions in history proceed from his altar, where He has received their prayers.

This is a time coming, THINK about it, 1/3 of the Earth's population is going to wIPED out by a 200 million man army .
Just think about it, milady

C;mon, why would God speak in confusing terms, there is no grand, profound, re-explaining of things, God's words are God's words and they are The Word by The Word of The Word for us to undertand, not be haunted by, misunderstood by, re-interpreting of meaning .

 

[Elin]

the pretrib rapture isn't in the bible green.
for the 50,000th time.
not there. at all. anywhere.

don't need history for that.

There is not one verse in all of Scripture that specifically locates the rapture
before the tribulation.
A pretribulation rapture is the notion of man, based solely in eisegesis.

However, there are unequivocal Biblical statements that locate the rapture
with the coming of Jesus in final judgment (2Th 1:6-10, 2:1-8),
and there are unequivocal Biblical statements that there will be no appearing
of Jesus until that coming in judgment (Ac 3:21; Heb 9:28).

 

[zone]

Revelation Chapter 9


A. Fifth Trumpet: Locusts from the Bottomless Pit (Rev. 9:1-12)Verse 1: The one who was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit was “a star [that had] fallen from heaven to earth.” Might this have anything to do with the great star that fell from heaven in Rev. 8:10? Another possibility for the identity of this star, clearly a person or entity, would be that it is Lucifer (See Luke 10:18 and Rev. 12:9-10). David Chilton notes that “the bottomless pit,” referenced in verse 1, is referred to a total of seven times in Revelation (9:1, 2, 11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1, 3). He adds,

In Biblical symbolism, the Abyss is the farthest extreme from heaven (Genesis 49:25; Deuteronomy 33:13) and from the high mountains (Psalm 36:6). It is used in Scripture as a reference to the deepest parts of the sea (Job 28:14; 38:16; Psalm 33:7) and to subterranean rivers and vaults of water (Deuteronomy 8:7; Job 36:16), whence the waters of the Flood came (Genesis 7:11; 8:2; Proverbs 3:20; 8:24), and which nourished the kingdom of Assyria (Ezekiel 31:4, 15). The Red Sea crossing of the covenant people is repeatedly likened to a passage through the Abyss (Psalm 77:16; 106:9; Isaiah 44:27; 51:10; 63:13). The prophet Ezekiel threatened Tyre with a great desolation of the land, in which God would bring up the Abyss to cover the city with a new Flood, bringing its people down to the pit in the lower parts of the earth (Ezekiel 26:19-21), and Jonah spoke of the Abyss in terms of excommunication from God’s presence, a banishment from the Temple (Jonah 2:5-6). The domain of the Dragon (Job 41:31; Psalm 148:7; Revelation 11:7; 17:8), the prison of the demons (Luke 8:31; Revelation 20:1-3; cf. 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), and the realm of the dead (Romans 10:7) are all called by the name Abyss.St. John is thus warning his readers that hell is about to break loose upon the Land of Israel; as with Tyre of old, the Abyss is being dredged up to cover the Land with its unclean spirits. Apostate Israel is to be cast out of God’s presence, excommunicated from the Temple, and filled with demons. One of the central messages of Revelation is that the Church tabernacles in heaven (see Revelation 7:15; 12:12; 13:6); the corollary of this is that the false church tabernacles in hell (David Chilton, Days of Vengeance, 1987).​

That the land of Israel is indicated here is further seen in the references to “the earth” (also properly translated as “the land”) in verses 3-4. In our study of Revelation so far, we have suggested that many of the references to “the earth” in the book of Revelation are not meant to be taken as worldwide in scope, but as dealing instead with the land of Israel/Palestine. In a 3-part study on this subjectbeginning with this post, I have outlined nearly 20 instances where this appears to be the case (See, for example, the post on Revelation 1, where we examined the phrase “tribes of the earth” in verse 7, which is often thought to be worldwide in scope. When this prophecy is compared, though, to its counterpart in Zechariah 12:10-14, it’s clear that every one of those tribes belonged to the land of Israel).
Q: In verse 4, we see that the locusts are told not to harm the grass, green plants, or trees, but only those without the seal of God on their foreheads. Where have we seen this before?
A: We saw it in Revelation 7:1-4, with the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish believers before the destruction began. Chilton notes that in Judea it was typical for locusts to appear in the land anytime between May and September, a period of five months. In this case they were to remain and attack relentlessly for five months. Regarding verse 4, Chilton reminds us that “[t]he vegetation of the earth is specifically exempted from the destruction caused by the ‘locusts.’ This is a curse on disobedient men.”
Q: What is the likely significance of the five month period cited in verse 5?
A: The siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70 AD lasted five months. It covered the time span of May to September, the exact time of the year when locusts normally would appear in Judea.[1]The “Models of Eschatology” blog site (moderated by a person identified as “wbdjr” for the United Christian Church in Richmond, Virginia) has this to say about the five month siege:

Five months is the time period that the Roman siege lasted around Jerusalem. During this time the Romans didn’t try to take the city, but let the work of the siege slowly weaken the city defenders and bring conditions upon them that could fit the definition of a great tribulation. During the siege the Zealots inside Jerusalem set fire to the food stocks that were stored up thinking that without food the inhabitants would be more compelled to join them in fighting the Romans. As food disappeared people were compelled to eat leather from belts, shoes, and anywhere else it could be found.[2]​

Kenneth Gentry (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 248) also states, quoting from F.F. Bruce (New Testament History, p. 382): “Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in April, 70. The defenders held out desperately for five months, but by the end of August the Temple area was occupied and the holy house burned down, and by the end of September all resistance in the city had come to an end.”

Q: Where else in Scripture do we see a similar vision of a destroying army which is likened to locusts?
A: We see it in Joel 1:2-7; 2:1-11.Verse 6: We are told that people would “seek death and…not find it” and “long to die, but death [would] flee from them.” Did this happen in 70 AD? Josephus records that during the height of the siege surviving Jews “poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes” as were seen during the siege. Thousands were literally starved to death, over a period of months and not just weeks. As we saw in our study on Revelation 6, Josephus also records that when the temple was burned in August 70 AD, many survivors retreated to Upper Jerusalem and some put on happy faces “in expectation, as they said, of death to end their miseries.” This longing for death is reminiscent of what Jesus said in Luke 23:27-30 (cf. Rev. 6:16).Kenneth Gentry (ibid, pp. 247-248) sees verses 1-12 as speaking strictly of demonic activity, and verses 13-19 as speaking of the invasion of a physical army. His reference to Jesus’ words in Matthew is most compelling:

Revelation 9:1-12 clearly seems to speak of demons under the imagery of locusts (perhaps due to their destructive power and the gnawing agony they cause). A great many commentators agree that, stripped of the poetical imagery, the locusts are really demons and their sting is that of the pain and influence of demonic oppression. This seems to be quite clearly the case in light of their origin (the bottomless pit, 9:1-3), their task (they afflict only men, 9:4), and their ruler (“the angel of the abyss,” surely Satan, 9:11). Were this a reference to the Roman army (or some later army), their restriction from killing (Rev. 9:5, 10) would be inexplicable in that the Roman army actually did destroy thousands of Jews in its assault. But if these are demons, and the physical killing is left to the armies (which are seen later, Rev. 9:13ff), the picture begins to come into focus.If demons are in view in this passage, this fits well with requirements of the early date [for the writing of the book of Revelation, i.e. before 70 AD] and the prophetic expectation of Christ in Matthew 12:38-45. There Christ teaches that during His earthly ministry He had cast out demons in Israel, but because of Israel’s resistance to His message, the demons will return in greater numbers within the “generation.”​

While I agree that this text does not speak of literal locusts present during this judgment, I see the possibility that in addition to a picture of demonic activity there are also hints of physical attacks, i.e. both happening concurrently. In verse 7, it is said that they appeared as “horses prepared for battle.” Their faces were “like human faces” (verse 7b), they had “hair like women’s hair,” they had breastplates of iron, and the noise made by their “wings” was “like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle” (verse 9). There are enough literal references mixed in to possibly portray a picture of 1[SUP]st[/SUP] century-type warfare. Steve Gregg, editor ofRevelation: Four Views (A Parallel Commentary), has this to say (pp. 182, 184):

Though the locusts themselves are no doubt a portrayal of armies of demons that afflicted the whole society of the Jews during their conflicts with the Romans, the description is perhaps mingled with some features of the demonized zealots who made life so miserable for their fellow Jews during the siege. That they have hair like women’s hair [v. 8] may actually be a reference to their transvestitism, as Josephus describes:“With their insatiable hunger for loot, they ransacked the houses of the wealthy, murdered men and violated women for sport; they drank their spoils with blood, and from mere satiety and shamelessness gave themselves up to effeminate practices, plaiting their hair and putting on women’s clothes, drenched themselves with perfumes and painting their eyelids to make themselves attractive. They copied not merely the dress, but also the passions of women, devising in their excess of licentiousness unlawful pleasures in which they wallowed as in a brothel. Thus they entirely polluted the city with their foul practices. Yet though they wore women’s faces, their hands were murderous. They would approach with mincing steps, then suddenly become fighting men, and, whipping out their swords from under their dyed cloaks, they would run through every passerby” (Wars, IV:9:10).​

Regarding the appearance of this army, David Chilton adds,

The frightening description of the demon-locusts in Revelation 9:7-11 bears many similarities to the invading heathen armies mentioned in the prophets (Jeremiah 51:27; Joel 1:6; 2:4-10; cf. Leviticus 17:7 and 2 Chronicles 11:15, where the Hebrew word for demon is hairy one). This passage may also refer, in part, to the Satanic gangs of murderous Zealots that preyed on the citizens of Jerusalem, ransacking houses and committing murder and rape indiscriminately. Characteristically, these perverts dressed up as harlots in order to seduce unsuspecting men to their deaths. One particularly interesting point about the description of the demon army is St. John’s statement that “the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.” That is the same sound made by the wings of the angels in the Glory-Cloud (Ezekiel 1:24; 3:13; 2 Kings 7:5-7); the difference here is that the noise is made by fallen angels.

Revelation Chapter 9 | Pursuing Truth

cont​

that is absolutely horrifying.

 

[GreenNnice]

Why would it be a problem if all the Bible was written BEFORE AD 70? Paul was believed to be killed in about 67 AD,Peter in about 67 AD,and James was killed about 44 AD,which means they were killed before Jerusalem was destroyed. That does all point to the fact that they wrote it all before AD 70 Green.

Besides you asked about some of things that John spoke about and I am trying to show you that in history it does appear that most of Revelation has been fulfilled. It's your choice what you do with it. Agree or disagree.

Besides Josephus does record what did happen in Jerusalem in the Jewish wars so deal with it.

Appearances are deceiving, just ask David Copperfield

Why not go with the logical Truth that shows us that the events of Revelation have ALL not been fulfilled yet. You risk leading others in heresy (no, I am not judging your salvation) when you try and pick and choose what's been all fulfilled in Revelation and what's not.

What year did Peter die? Prove it.

 

[SarahM777]

that is absolutely horrifying.

The thing is I doubt many could come to a future fulfillment of Revelation if we were all taught what Josephus wrote about those times. There are some things that still are to be fulfilled but to me it's becoming more and more clear that Revelation appears to be mostly completed.

 

[SarahM777]

sarasara, you REALLY have to WANT to believe in something to think that the 6th trumpet is as this man you quoted aspires:

“John’s opening words about the sixth Trumpet (Revelation 9:13) again reminds us that the desolations wrought by God in the earth are on behalf of His people (Psalm 46), in response to their official, covenantal worship: the command to the sixth angel is issued by a voice ‘from the four horns of the golden altar [i.e., the incense altar] which is before God.’ The mention of this point is obviously intended to encourage God’s people in worship and prayer, assuring them that God’s actions in history proceed from his altar, where He has received their prayers.

This is a time coming, THINK about it, 1/3 of the Earth's population is going to wIPED out by a 200 million man army .
Just think about it, milady

C;mon, why would God speak in confusing terms, there is no grand, profound, re-explaining of things, God's words are God's words and they are The Word by The Word of The Word for us to undertand, not be haunted by, misunderstood by, re-interpreting of meaning .

It's not as confusing as you want to make it out. The OT gives us the meanings of the symbols that Jesus and John uses. Apply what the OT shows to Revelation and it's a whole lot easier to understand.

 

[GreenNnice]

It's not as confusing as you want to make it out. The OT gives us the meanings of the symbols that Jesus and John uses. Apply what the OT shows to Revelation and it's a whole lot easier to understand.

Like I said, sarsara, you are doing some Masoeretic sign or something like that, what was that movie, 'The DaVinci Code,' yeah, that's it.

You are applying OT to NT to make your doctrine of re-writing the words of Revelation to suddenly APPEAR as Truth, but, it's not,

As I said, you have to become some high, erudite scholar to connect the dots as YOU want to connect them with Old Testament signs to become New Testament meaning regarding the tribulation of Revelation spoken , a.k.a., REALLY want to believe in something to make it bake into your chosen doctrine, I think.

 

[SarahM777]

Appearances are deceiving, just ask David Copperfield

Why not go with the logical Truth that shows us that the events of Revelation have ALL not been fulfilled yet. You risk leading others in heresy (no, I am not judging your salvation) when you try and pick and choose what's been all fulfilled in Revelation and what's not.

What year did Peter die? Prove it.

Are you afraid that most of Revelation may very well be mostly fulfilled? Either history does show it has been or it does not. Deal with it.

 

[SarahM777]

Like I said, sarsara, you are doing some Masoeretic sign or something like that, what was that movie, 'The DaVinci Code,' yeah, that's it.

You are applying OT to NT to make your doctrine of re-writing the words of Revelation to suddenly APPEAR as Truth, but, it's not,

As I said, you have to become some high, erudite scholar to connect the dots as YOU want to connect them with Old Testament signs to become New Testament meaning regarding the tribulation of Revelation spoken , a.k.a., REALLY want to believe in something to make it bake into your chosen doctrine, I think.

Sorry Green,But scripture explains scripture.

 

[SarahM777]

what's taking so long?

I do have to work yet.

(I would would much rather do this though)