Distinctives of Dispensationalism

[Elin]

I do not care where you got the statement from. But i am sure I know where. You got it from a anti-dispensational source. Because if you got it from a dispensational source you would not make the claim you made.

Very few dispensationalists believe in different gospels. I only know of one in here.

My knowledge of dispensationalism extends beyond CC.

 

[Elin]

1283Note that James said the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, to rebuild (restore) the tent of David (Israel)
was being fulfilled, as Peter and Paul showed in their testimonies, by the Gentiles coming into the NT church, which is composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.

And since Gentiles will be coming into the one people of God, the NT church of believing Jews and Gentiles, until the end of time, Amos 9:11-12 has only one fulfillment, the NT Church.

Well of course. Amos 9: 11-12 speaks of one day.

but lets not forget the days of vs 13-15
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord,
[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant them in their land,
And no longer shall they be pulled upFrom the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.

we certainly can not say this has happened yet. or that the church has fulfilled this aspect of the prophesy now can we??

Agreed.

It was fulfilled in the return from exile in Babylon under Ezra and Nehemiah where the walls and the Temple were rebuilt, and the people were rededicated to God.

Ageed?

So your saying this happened?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]I will plant them in their land, And no longer shall they be pulled up From the land I have given them,”
Says the Lord your God.

So 70 AD was just a dream? It never really happened and Israel is still planted in her land? Or did you mean disagree. because they were "pulled from their land" by the roman army in 70 AD? thus it could not have been fulfilled yet?

you refused to answer the question.Now do you want to answer why they were yankjed out of their land by the roman army when God said when he restored them he woulg NEVER yank them out again?

James states that the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, to rebuild (restore) David's tent,
is fulfilled in the NT Church with the taking in of the Gentiles (Ac 15:13-18).

Therefore, the continuation of the prophecy in vv. 14-15 also refers to the NT Church of Jews
and Gentiles, which is the kingdom of God (within the hearts of believers--Lk 17:20-21, where
Christ rules and reigns), and it is this kingdom which will never be uprooted from the earth.

The certain and authoritative interpretation in the NT of Amos 9:11-12 settles the matter
of its meaning as the NT Church, rather than Israel,
and overthrows all uncertain private interpretation not in agreement.

 

[zone]

Josephus does record some interesting details regarding the activity of one man, whose behavior shows that he functioned very much as a prophet in the city of Jerusalem. The following excerpt is taken from a term paper I wrote a few months ago:

Jesus, the son of Ananus and a common Roman citizen, came to the Feast of Tabernacles in Jerusalem during a time of great peace and prosperity and began to cry out, “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!” He continued to do this for seven years and five months, day and night, in all the lanes of the city, crying out the loudest during the festivals. He was often whipped until his bones were bare, but witnesses say he never shed a tear, only crying out at every lash, “Woe, woe to Jerusalem!” He was dismissed by the Roman Procurator as a madman… [In April 70 AD he was] killed by a large stone flung from one of the Roman engines… Just before he was struck, he cried out with great force, “Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house! Woe, woe to myself also!”

wow....oh wow.
Josephus records that (!).
amazing.

 

[zone]

James states that the prophecy of Amos 9:11-12, to rebuild (restore) David's tent,
is fulfilled in the NT Church with the taking in of the Gentiles (Ac 15:13-18).

Therefore, the continuation of the prophecy in vv. 14-15 also refers to the NT Church of Jews
and Gentiles, which is the kingdom of God (within the hearts of believers--Lk 17:20-21, where
Christ rules and reigns), and it is this kingdom which will never be uprooted from the earth.

The certain and authoritative interpretation in the NT of Amos 9:11-12 settles the matter
of its meaning as the NT Church, rather than Israel,
and overthrows all uncertain private interpretation not in agreement.

Daniel 2
"You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. 35"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth....

 

[zone]

Dr. Andrew Corbett, the pastor ofLegana Christian Church in (Tasmania) Australia, has an altogether different take regarding the two witnesses. that the 42 months in which the holy city will be trampled (verse 2) “is most naturally associated with the historic Roman occupation of Jerusalem which commenced in 66AD. This is supported by the statement in Revelation 13:5-6 where the Roman Beast speaks against the ‘Tabernacle’ for forty-two months.” The 1260 days, on the other hand, “while also equivalent to three and a half years, is distinguished from the Gentile occupation of Jerusalem… Therefore, we are dealing with the two witnesses ministering during the time of persecution against the Church, not the occupation of Jerusalem.

“In other words, Corbett is saying, the 42 months of trampling down Jerusalem and Israel in Rev. 11:2 took place from late 66 AD – early 70 AD. Yet there was a different 42-month period, spoken of in Revelation 13:5-7, in which God’s people were persecuted to the point of being overcome

See the post on Revelation 13:1-10. Nero, who I believe to be the first beast of chapter 13 in the singular sense, indeed persecuted the saints from November 64 AD – June 68 AD, a period of 42 months; Peter and Paul were both martyred during the later part of this period. Corbett suggests that this was the period in which the two witnesses were active. He adds, “These two witnesses are not necessarily two individuals. No empire has to ‘make war against’ two individuals.” He notes that both Jeremiah 11:16 and Romans 11:17-24 refer to Israel as an olive tree, the very imagery found in Rev. 11:4. He adds his opinion that the two witnesses were [corporately] the Jewish Christians [of whom some] were literally witnesses to Christ in the sense of having physically seen Him, and perhaps most importantly being prepared to lay down their lives for Him. It’s this latter aspect of the term witness that is recurring throughout the Book of Revelation. The Greek word for witness is martus from where we get the English wordmartyr. The Law required that a testimony be established on at least two witnesses [Deuteronomy 17:6].

He sees the “breath of life from God” in verse 11 as God giving new life to His people once Nero committed suicide in June 68 AD, having failed to eradicate the Church entirely as he set out to do (see chapter 13 study). I see some possible holes in Corbett’s arguments, not all of which I alluded to here, but I’ve warmed up to the idea that the two witnesses represent the Church as a whole. I also find his idea that the two witnesses prophesied from 64-68 AD (rather than 66-70 AD) quite intriguing. This seems to fit other details better, especially as verse 13 (below) is concerned. I’m surprised I didn’t consider this before, since it’s the beast that kills the two witnesses (verse 7), and I believe the beast to be Nero in the singular sense (who was still alive in 68 AD, but not in 70 AD).

interesting

It’s worth noting that “Revelation 11:8 suggests that Jerusalem’s streets were intact at the time of John’s writing” (Kenneth Gentry, 1998, p. 236) because the dead bodies of the two witnesses were to lie there for several days. If John wrote this in 95 or 96 AD, Jerusalem would have been a wasteland. As Kathleen M. Kenyon remarked [Jerusalem: Excavating 3000 Years of History, 1967, p. 185], “It was two centuries or more [after 70 AD] before human activity began once more to make its mark in the whole area of ancient Jerusalem.” It’s also significant in Revelation 11:8 that Jerusalem is called “the great city.” This is the same title given to Babylon the Great on at least six occasions (17:18; 18:10, 16, 18, 19, 21).To be called “Sodom,” of course, is not a compliment. When Isaiah was instructed to prophesy against Judah and Jerusalem (Isaiah 1:1), he called the Israelites by the same name because of their apostasy. It would make sense for John to speak of apostate Jerusalem, once known as the holy city, as Sodom, Babylon, and a harlot.

Todd Dennis writes, “The image of the unfaithful wife, the harlot, was often used of Israel in the OT. Israel is repeatedly called the wife of God (Jer. 2:2, 3:14, Is. 54:5). But she was an unfaithful wife (Jer. 3:20, Hos. 1:2, Ez. 6:9, Ez. 16, Is. 50:1) behaving as a prostitute (Jer. 3:1-2).

Kenneth Gentry (Before Jerusalem Fell, p. 171) notes that Jerusalem is great in not only its “covenantal-redemptive [i.e. spiritual] signficance,” but also because of its historical fame. He quotes the Roman historian Tacitus who refers to Jerusalem as “a famous city” (Histories 5:2).

Gentry adds,
Jerusalem housed a Temple that, according to Tacitus “was famous beyond all other works of men.” Another Roman historian, Pliny, said of Jerusalem that it was “by far the most famous city of the ancient Orient.” According to Josephus, a certain Agatharchides spoke of Jerusalem thus: “There are a people called Jews, who dwell in a city the strongest of all other cities, which the inhabitants call Jerusalem.” Appian called it “the great city Jerusalem.” …More important, however, is the covenantal significance of Jerusalem. The obvious role of Jerusalem in the history of the covenant should merit it such greatness…

Josephus sadly extols Jerusalem’s lost glory after its destruction: “This was the end which Jerusalem came to be the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificance, and of mighty fame among all mankind (Wars 7:1:1)… And where is not that great city, the metropolis of the Jewish nation, which was fortified by so many walls round about, which had so many fortresses and large towers to defend it, which could hardly contain the instruments prepared for the war, and which had so many tens of thousands of men to fight for it? Where is this city that was believed to have God himself inhabiting therein? It is now demolished to the very foundations” (Wars7:8:7).

.........

 

[SarahM777]

wow....oh wow.
Josephus records that (!).
amazing.

Wait till we get to chapter 13 and who and what the beast is. Will have to get to that tomorrow.

 

[zone]

Wait till we get to chapter 13 and who and what the beast is. Will have to get to that tomorrow.

is Herod in any of it?
cuz i know he's in Daniel 11 - "the king"
tsk...mkay. i'll waaaaait.

 

[zone]

Verses 9-12: These verses speak of a time period of “three and a half days” for the dead bodies of the witnesses to lie unburied in the streets, and before “a breath of life from God” enters them. Without being dogmatic, I’m inclined to think of this time period as representing and being one and the same with the three and a half years (i.e. 1260 days) of their ministry.

Verse 13: [/B]We are told that a great earthquake takes place, causing a tenth of the city of Jerusalem [identified as such in verse 8] to fall, and 7000 to be killed as a direct result of the earthquake. This is said to occur in the same hour as the end of the ministry of the two witnesses. If they indeed finished their witness before Nero’s death, as Corbett (above) has postulated, then this account from Josephus (said to take place during the first half of 68 AD) is likely the fulfillment of this very event:

There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming (Wars 4:4:5). [Taking advantage of the noise of the storm, some of the Jewish zealots cut the bars of the temple gates with temple saws, allowing the Idumaeans to come in and join them in slaughtering some of the people]. The din from all quarters was rendered more terrific by the howling of the storm. And by daybreak they saw 8,500 dead bodies there (Wars 4:4:7-4:5:1).

arg....those horrible awful zealots.

i gotta do a study on them again - started to awhile back but left it.
hmmm...

that revolutionary element - they're seen in Daniel (and the Maccabees).

 

[SarahM777]

is Herod in any of it?
cuz i know he's in Daniel 11 - "the king"
tsk...mkay. i'll waaaaait.

Yes and they do show he is tied in.

Smoothie and popcorn while you wait?

 

[zone]

Revelation Chapter 12


A. Futurist View:[Many of the details expressed in this viewpoint are taken from The John MacArthur Bible Commentary, Thomas Nelson Publishing, 2005. Pp. 2015-2017].

Verses 1 and 2: The woman depicted here is one of four mentioned in the book of Revelation. She is thought to be the mother of Jesus by Roman Catholic expositors. However, most of those in Protestant circles don’t believe this – they believe the woman to represent Israel, and the child is Jesus Christ.

Dispensationalists also hold this view.Verse 1: “…clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of 12 stars” correlates with Genesis 37:9, in which this same description represents the family of Jacob.Being clothed with the sun likely speaks of glory, dignity and the exalted status of Israel.

The moon under her feet possibly describes God’s covenant relationship with Israel, since new moons were associated with worship (1 Chr. 23:31; 2 Chr. 2:4; 8:13, Ezra 3:5; Ps. 81:3). The twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel.Verse 3: The red dragon is thought to represent Satan. The seven heads and the ten horns are tied to the first beast of chapter 13. Futurists generally hold the view that the third of the stars swept down by his tail (verse 4) can refer to angelic beings (see Rev 1:20, 9:1 and Job 38:7).

This event would likely describe when Satan revolted against heaven and took with him a third of the angels (Jude 6, 2 Peter 2:4). Unable to prevent the virgin birth, Satan tried to kill the child in a general massacre of male children commanded by Herod (Matt 2:13-18, cf. Luke 4:28-29).Red speaks of bloodshed (John 8:44). Seven heads…ten horns…seven diadems = figurative language depicting Satan’s domination of seven past worldly kingdoms and ten future kingdoms (Daniel 7:7, 20, 24).

Satan has and will rule the world until the seventh trumpet blows (11:15) and has inflicted relentless pain on Israel (Daniel 8:24), desiring to kill the woman before she could inflict pain on him.Verse 5: “She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron…” correlates to a promise made to Christ in Psalm 2 and repeated again in Revelation 19:15.Verse 6: …and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she to be nourished for 1,260 days.”

God will protect Israel from Satan by hiding her in the wilderness, perhaps in the regions of Moab, Ammon, and Edom, east of Palestine.

These countries are spared from the Antichrist’s attack against the Holy Land (Daniel 11:41). The 1,260 days represents the first half of the tribulation, at which point the Antichrist breaks his covenant with Israel, stops temple worship, and sets up the abomination of desolation (Daniel 9:27; Matt. 24:15).

Many Jews will flee for their lives, but God will preserve them for the final 42 months (3½ years) of the Great Tribulation.Verses 7-13: A state of war has broken out in heaven and has existed since the fall of Satan (Daniel 10:13, Jude 9). The war will intensify, possibly due to the raptured saints passing through the realm of the prince of the power of the air (Ephesians 2:2).

Satan will continue to deceive people during the Great Tribulation (cf. 13-14, 20:3, John 8:44). After his release from the bottomless pit at the end of the Millennium, he will briefly resume his deceitful ways (20:8, 10).Verse 14: “the wings of a great eagle…” This doesn’t refer to actual birds’ wings, but is a graphic depiction of God’s providential protection over Israel. “A time and times and half a time” refer to the 3½ years, or the second half, of the Great Tribulation (cf. 11:2-3; 13:5).

Verse 16: “the earth opened its mouth…” A great army will come against Israel like a flood (v. 15; cf. Jer. 46:8, 47:2), only to be swallowed up by a great earthquake (6:12; 8:5; 11:13; 19; 16:18; Matt 24:7). Satan will then take a position in the midst of the nations of the world, represented by the sand of the sea.

k...familiar with this view.

 

[zone]

Yes and they do show he is tied in.

they do?
very coooool

Smoothie and popcorn while you wait?

mmmm....my favs.
good supper.
t.y.

 

[weakness]

age following - mellinium, following the great tribulation and return of Christ. (putting an end to the time of the gentile)
Christ rules. Not Israel. not sure where you get this. no one said Israel would rule the world. they will just live in thier land, and Jesus will be their king.. and all nations of the world will worship him. [/QUOT Psalms 2:7,8 I will declare the decree: thou art my son this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me ,and I shall give thee the nations for thy inheritance ,and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession..

 

[weakness]

1Th 4:16-17 and 2Th 2:1-2 are very clear that there is.

There won't be any Scriptures that show the word of God in the two above is untrue.


[/QUOTE Nice color by the way...I guess I just had it in my mind about pre whatever rapture I believe those who are alive will be caught up to meet the lord in the air. I just don't think of that as the rapture I guess. Or like some thing that will anesthetize us from persecution and our testimony of being like Christ in the end of the world or the end of our earthly life. One way or another the day of Christ IS at hand and we should be watchful and not deceived by the deceiver. Personally my day of the Lord is getting closer by the day ...Pray for me...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

My knowledge of dispensationalism extends beyond CC.

lol. I have never in all my life seen anyone so unwilling to back her claims when she is confronted.

I am dispensational. I have been for all my life and have studied this subject in great detail for many years (over 30 years) Although some of my views have changed since I started studying, As far as what you are claiming, except for very few fanatics. I have yet to read the claims you made.

So your telling an avid, well studied dispensationalist that his belief teaches multiple gospels. And you are confronted to show proof. And all you can say is stuff like this??

There is only one opinion I can make then. Your study is from an antidispensationalist. Is biased. And has no clue about what we teach.

I do not know what else to say! If there is another reason you for some reason want to run behind these excuses and not show me proof. Then I can come to no other conclusion.

 

[GreenNnice]

GreenNnice:

When Christ comes from the clouds,

per 1 Thessalonians 4, then, those in the grave, first, and, then, those on Earth, will meet up with Christ IN THE AIR and the angels and others who've died already maybe, I don't know, I'm just saying the latter, but, THIS ACT is not how Revelation describes the time of Jacob's Trouble, which is the last 3.5 years of the Tribulation 7-year time period.

Where does REvelation speak of Christ's 2nd coming being Him coming from the clouds and meeting up with those of Him in the grave and Earth coming UP TO THE SKY ?

Elin:

Are you saying 1Th 4:16-17 is wrong?

Ac 3:21 - "He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything (in the new creation at the end of time).

Ro 8:20-21 - "For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that (subjected it in hope for) the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (at the resurrection at Christ's second coming--1Th 4:16-17).

What do you think I am saying here, el ?

I know, what you might be interpreting from the words, but, what do you think I am saying here even if I am not saying it correctly, not that I am saying it incorrectly.

Ah, not to be tooo rhetorical, I am saying that 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17 is NOT spoken of ANYWHERE in Revelation yet it IS spoken of in 1 Thes. 4. So, what's gives ??? What's right?

Do you think that there is NO Rapture because the closest we get to the Rapture allusion is from Rev. 4 and going up to the Father's House ? or, is there more to be learned, seen, from 1 Thes. 4, that speaks of something HAPPENING that has not happened yet, that is not happening any 'where' in the verses and chapters and book of Revelation???

Which is it? WHY is The Rapture mentioned in 1 Thes. 4 but is NOT mentioned anywhere in Revelation ?

That's my simple, simple, simon question to you , el

 

[psychomom]

Rev. 1:1-3

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

soon: literal Greek, in quickness

Strongs:

tachos: speed​

Original Word: τάχος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: tachos
Phonetic Spelling: (takh'-os)
Short Definition: quickness, speed
Definition: quickness, speed; hastily, immediately.

Rev. 1:19
Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

What did God mean by these words?
To whom was He saying this?

 

[ChosenbyHim]

So are you saying that those who become believers during the "tribulation" are NOT Christian but something else?

Well Sarah, you should first understand that salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble will be different than how salvation works now. People that get saved in the Time of Jacob's trouble will not be put into the body of Christ, and they will not get sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Today in the Church Age; when a Jew or Gentle gets saved, they are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30) and are baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13).

But again; in the time of Jacob's trouble, salvation won't be as it is today in the Church Age.

In the Church Age, every true born again Christian and believer has eternal security (Eph. 4:30), but in the time of Jacob's trouble, no one has eternal security EXCEPT the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes of Israel which have the Seal of God in their foreheads (Rev. 7:3).

Today in the Church Age, every genuine convert is baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:12-13). But when a person is saved in the time of Jacob's trouble, they are not placed into the Body of Christ, becsuse the Body of Christ has already been taken off the earth (2 Thess. 2:7).

Also today in the Church Age, every true convert gets washed from their sins in the blood of Jesus Christ by Jesus Christ Himself (Rev. 1:5).

In the Time of Jacob's trouble, a person who gets saved and makes it through the tribulation or who gets martyred for his faith will have washed his robe and will have made it white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).


In the Church Age; God makes no distinction between saved Jews (Christians) and saved Gentiles (Christians), for they are all one in Christ (Col. 3:11 & Gal. 3:28).

But in the Time of Jacob's trouble, God will make a distinction between Jews and Gentiles (Rev. 7).


So could you call a person who gets saved in the time of Jacob's trouble (the tribulation) a Christian?

Sure. Perhaps you could.

But I Simply call them Tribulation Saints since salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble is so different than salvation now in the Church Age. Even the process and nature of Salvation is very different between the two dispebsations. There are several Dispensational distinctions between salvation now in the Church Age and salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble (Daniel's 70th week). And that's why I refer to saved people in the time of Jacob's trouble (the tribulation) as Tribulation Saints and not as Christians. But if you Sarah, or anyone else wants to call them Christians. Well then obviously both you and them have that liberty to do so.

 

[Musiquelle]

I believe the book of Revelation is mostly a book revealing Jesus Christ. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It is a beautiful picture told in symbols of His death and resurrection. It is a largely misinterpreted book. There are so many holes in dispensationalist doctrines of the end times it is laughable. I believe John was taken into the spirit for God to reveal to him the glorious work that Christ had completed. Just because dispensationalists have declared there is a certain way to interpret the book, that does not mean they necessarily have it right. You can be misled. I have gone through an in depth teaching by Bishop David R. Huskins on the book of Revelations and my mind has been blown. It has changed my view of everything, and for the better. Revelations is a book of beauty, not terror. It is a book of symbols and pictures. You can't take everything literally. There is a scripture referring to a lamb standing before them, as he had been slain. Do you think there was a literal lamb standing, yet slain? No. It is a "picture" of Christ. Not a literal lamb. So can you take everything in Revelation literally? No. Its a book of signs, symbols, and pictures.

 

[maxwel]

I haven't seen Zone in this thread for a couple of days.

So while she's absent, I've decided to rush in...
and declare the dispensationalists as the winners.

: )

 

[Drett]

I haven't seen Zone in this thread for a couple of days.

So while she's absent, I've decided to rush in...
and declare the dispensationalists as the winners.

: )

What sort of crooked electoral process are you running here ? Some guy with one eye mugged me in the street before I could put my ballot in.