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oh no he knew and it was no error in the grand design and as for limitation the answer is yes and no. he chooses to limit himself out of love, do you know how many times i have wished he would take my free will and i could just be his puppet? but he chooses not to even though he easily could because he treasures a willing heart more than a forced one. and true he uses evil ppl and their actions for good but not because they were destined for hell he just uses our choices for the grand design. free will is a powerful thing and can change our reality
R
I understand the bind, however, God reveals himself to all of us in the same way universally through Scripture. I understand there is room for interpretation on some issues... some leeway that is not absolutely defined in black and white. The issue of God's judgment is somewhat perplexing to many people and a deal breaker for many others. This is the God who wiped out entire nations (men, women, children and goats) not to mention the entire race except for one family, yet He says he sent his Son not to condemn man, but to save him. Same God. Different methodologies or the same, but on a linear trajectory. Still, His the most fierce example of His judgment is yet to come and it will occur from the Great White Judgment Seat. So, we are undoubtedly dealing with an entity who has a very strong sense of justice and judgment. Yet, we are told that Christ's sacrifice tempered or mitigated that judgment, but to what extent? No one knows the answer to that definitively, but I think we have to be careful not to humanize God based on our own perceptions and ideas of what is just and not just. Having said that, I still need to pursue the issue around the notion of a flawed design and for what purpose.
R
Respectfully, as I said in the original post, this isn't about freewill. I understand the concept of freewill. The issue I am exploring came before man was even created and given free will. It was the moment before he breathed breath into Adam. He knew he was breathing breath into a creation who was doomed to fail and that failure would set off a chain of events which would lead to more devastation and heart break than we can imagine. This corrupt system murdered His son and even though we understand that was the price for escaping the system, the same system rages on today with the same levels of destruction, heartache and brutality. For what? Why not stop with Adam's fall? Abel's murder? Noah's flood? etc etc. Why flood the earth only to start the misery all over again when He knew it would return to the same state as before the flood? Is this the act of a loving entity? In any other context would this make any sense? You say you love something and continue to subject it to untold misery. Yes, I understand it is predicated on our choices universally and individually, but He knew we would fail. He also knew that innocence would continue to be abused and exploited. Again, unto what end? We cry out Abba, Father, yet it sometimes feels as though the dynamic is Munchausen by Proxy syndrome. Keep us sick and wounded so He might gain some "glory" when there is a positive outcome. I don't intend to be disrespectful, but am merely attempting to reconcile these seemingly contradictory dynamics.
Hmm, I believe this is one of the mysteries of God and we should accept it that way. God is sovereign, and has absolute prerogative to do whatever He wills to exhibit His glory; "...My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10). We should be grateful that He took the initiative to graciously provide a redemptive plan through His Son. The solace for believers is that we will one day dwell in a place free from misery and suffering. 
Hmm, I believe this is one of the mysteries of God and we should accept it that way. God is sovereign, and has absolute prerogative to do whatever He wills to exhibit His glory; "...My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10). We should be grateful that He took the initiative to graciously provide a redemptive plan through His Son. The solace for believers is that we will one day dwell in a place free from misery and suffering.
R
Hmm, I believe this is one of the mysteries of God and we should accept it that way. God is sovereign, and has absolute prerogative to do whatever He wills to exhibit His glory; "...My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isaiah 46:10). We should be grateful that He took the initiative to graciously provide a redemptive plan through His Son. The solace for believers is that we will one day dwell in a place free from misery and suffering.
R
I have to have faith that God is both fair and just. But does faith require blind trust or not questioning the things we don't fully understand? We are to be prepared to give a defense of our faith. When non-believers and believers raise these questions, I believe I have a responsibility to give them as informed an answer as possible. It also bothers me personally to be confronted with this particular issue and feel uneasy about it. Sometimes I am comfortable with the answer "Because God is God and I am not", but other times I want to turn the issue inside out. This is one of those issues. We are called to faith and trust. In order to have both we have to have confidence in the dynamic we are putting our faith and trust in. I would like to have less personal discomfort about this issue and also to have better more thought provoking or reassuring answers for those who are seeking or who are in crisis. It feels and seems lazy to tell someone who asks these questions, "God is God and you just have to trust Him". So I'm telling them it would be a good idea to turn control of their lives over to God and yet these issues remain unaddressed and glaring.
How about we take our concept of morality out, and put God's morality in - infinite holiness, perfection, eternal, transcendent, emminence
if we do that we get rid of a lot of our problems
God get's glory no matter what - people in heaven, people in hell
God uses all things, even sin to accomplish His purposes
if we do that we get rid of a lot of our problems
God get's glory no matter what - people in heaven, people in hell
God uses all things, even sin to accomplish His purposes
The point is, God created all things by His good will without any constraint (Rev. 4:11). That He created the world knowing ahead of time it will be catastrophic, does not make Him a tyrant. He is the Potter and we are just clay. The fact that we are alive, we have rain, sunshine, etc., is by His grace alone. It's unfortunate that innocent people are being exploited and suffering in the hands of evil people, but God is permitting it all and using it to display His great power and glory. On the bright side, the gospel is advancing and many are coming into a saving relationship with Him through these sufferings.
God bless.
God bless.
R
God's nature contains all the elements you mentioned which is what makes this issue so difficult. Since He is perfect, why did he implement a plan He knew to be fatally flawed? God uses what Satan intends for evil for good, but what could His purpose possibly be in creating and perpetuating dysfunction? This discussion isn't focused on freewill and issues like predestination, but rather God's purpose on creating a system saturated in death and destruction. Let's substitute God for another king or ruler. If he established a system for how his kingdom would operate which resulted in death and misery and then declared that glory should be given to Him by those suffering within that system, what would we say about such a ruler? Again, it is not my intent to be dishonoring or disrespectful toward God, but I believe He has broad shoulders and these are the questions being asked out loud by many people so it seems reasonable that we would develop reasonable answers. Even if someone said that every time someone in this world suffers it provides comfort to someone in a parallel plane due to the transfer of energy, I would be interested to hear more. Something that helps to make sense of what seems to be nonsensical.
R
The point is, God created all things by His good will without any constraint (Rev. 4:11). That He created the world knowing ahead of time it will be catastrophic, does not make Him a tyrant. He is the Potter and we are just clay. The fact that we are alive, we have rain, sunshine, etc., is by His grace alone. It's unfortunate that innocent people are being exploited and suffering in the hands of evil people, but God is permitting it all and using it to display His great power and glory. On the bright side, the gospel is advancing and many are coming into a saving relationship with Him through these sufferings.
God bless.
God bless.
As humans I think we always think in the immediate rather that eternal. Perhaps all of the suffering will one day serve a greater good. Maybe Gods love for man is more of a collective than an individual. I'm not suggesting God doesn't love each of us but that there is a much bigger picture to focus on. As a species we have only been around for a few seconds in the light of eternity. It is quite possible that this was all part of God's plan to purify our species in preparation of what is yet to come. As a species we are just in our infancy, lets say the larva stage. We are in essence supposed to receive our eternal forms in the age to come. This I know, God is good. I am thankful He made me. If He made me as a predestined follower then I am even more greatful that I am His. I believe there is a much greater reality than we are privy to or even that we can fathom. I think we are more like ants in an ant farm going about our business knowing there is something else beyond the glass but not being able to grasp it or even understand. For now we can only know that it exists.
R
Interesting you used the ant farm illustration. I was talking to someone who used the same illustration except in his scenario, God is using a magnifying glass to burn the ants at his leisure. The context of eternity... what came before and what will come after this earth comes to an end... certainly expands the possibilities of why the system may have been created, but doesn't do much to shed light on the millions who have suffered and are lost. Right now we have about 8 billion people on the earth on only a small fraction are Christian and only a small fraction will ever hear the Gospel. They will be born, suffer and die for what purpose? Is it enough to simply say they are an insignificant bit player in this drama? What about God having the number of hairs on their head numbered? It is interesting to note Jesus' activity the day after the crucifixion. He preached to the souls in Hades. The grand second chance. The presentation of the Gospel to a very captive and attentive audience. Will this kind of opportunity be offered to everyone who never had a chance to hear the Gospel? Some have speculated that those who never hear the Gospel will be judged according to their conscience and/or the moral constructs which existed in their culture. Where they good or bad based on the system they functioned within? The purification of our species idea is interesting... From Adam to the Wedding Feast in Revelation how much refinement will have occurred? The fall, the flood, the never ending rebellion in the OT, the immorality and ignorance of the NT church. Even the ignorance and rebellion of those who will turn away once Satan is loosed after a thousand years will number the sand of the seashore. From the fall to the Wedding feast is undoubtedly a blink in God's time, but the cost inherent in the process seems unjustifiable or at least inconsistent with His nature. Who will get thrown into the Lake of Fire with the unholy trinity? The goats... who are they? The ignorant? The rebellious? The enemies? I have never really struggled with the concept of eternal suffering or a lake of fire, however, those who will be plunged into that horror are those who have been produced by this system. The image of the sheep and goats has always led me to believe there are going to be a lot of goats. The fall led to the lake. Who will receive the designation of a goat? There would be no lake of fire if there had been no fall. Even in the context and light of eternity and an evolving process, the end just doesn't seem to support the means or misery involved.
T
The single fact that over 1/3 of the angels fell with Satan shows that even angelic beings have free will, this fact destroys any kind of predestination and no free will doctrine. I sometimes ponder, what LIE did Satan tell, that caused 1/3 of the Angels, which were created to worship and serve God, think to themselves and say...yep, Lucifer...he is really God!
I believe Jesus and the view he took, preached and proclaimed as truth from the Father..
Broad and wide is the path that leads to destruction and MANY go in there at for.....
Straight and narrow is the path the leads to life and FEW there be which find it!
To disregard what Jesus said, implies that he is either a liar or that he was mistaken and didn't know what he was talking about which in turn transfers directly to the Heavenly Father!
Broad and wide is the path that leads to destruction and MANY go in there at for.....
Straight and narrow is the path the leads to life and FEW there be which find it!
To disregard what Jesus said, implies that he is either a liar or that he was mistaken and didn't know what he was talking about which in turn transfers directly to the Heavenly Father!
T
How can you make sense of something that relies solely on FAITH. You will never get the answer to your question, because you are attempting to use the carnal man to gain insight into spiritual things.
You cannot approach the things of God with the sense knowledge of sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing or your mind, will or emotions. God is a spirit.
1 cor 2.14 says-
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your questions is easily to understand if you spiritually discern it, but you fail because you are trying to Figure it all out as a carnal/natural man.
You cannot approach the things of God with the sense knowledge of sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing or your mind, will or emotions. God is a spirit.
1 cor 2.14 says-
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Your questions is easily to understand if you spiritually discern it, but you fail because you are trying to Figure it all out as a carnal/natural man.