Women preachers?

dcontroversal · Feb 28, 2014

AmberGardner said:

The Spirit is also classified as neuter....does that change the fact that God was a man?

AmberGardner · Feb 28, 2014

Definitely God the Father and God the Son are males. The Spirit of Wisdom is female, according to the Word.

dcontroversal · Feb 28, 2014

AmberGardner said:

According to the classification of nouns in Greek, Pneuma (Spirit) is classified neuter....

The_highwayman · Feb 28, 2014

biscuit said:

Will this be before or after all the men explain whey they negated their positions as the high priest of their homes and spiritual leaders in the church?

Stephen63 · Feb 28, 2014

Well I thought about using this scripture,

Galatians 3:27-29 (KJV) [SUP]27 [/SUP]For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [SUP]28 [/SUP]There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [SUP]29 [/SUP]And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Then I thought about these scriptures that back this one up,

Romans 8:14 (KJV) [SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
[HR][/HR]Galatians 4:6 (KJV) [SUP]6 [/SUP]And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
[HR][/HR]Philippians 2:15 (KJV) [SUP]15 [/SUP]That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
[HR][/HR]Hebrews 12:7 (KJV) [SUP]7 [/SUP]If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
[HR][/HR]1 John 3:1-2 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Then there's this one,
Romans 16:7 (KJV) [SUP]7 [/SUP]Salute Andronicus and Junia (greek, female) my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners, who are of note(noteworthy) among (of the same group)the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Then I thought of all the female missionaries who are allowed to labor in the foreign fields, preaching, starting churches, teaching in Bible schools, making rounds as an overseer, you know, doing these jobs out of sight of U.S. denominational leaders therefore it's alright, basically doing what the apostles were doing, visiting & strengthening the churches.

It's always alright when they take a job nobody else wants, or their overseers are too good to do it themselves, or they're too lazy to do themselves.

But then they have the audacity to say they can't here in the good ole USA because the men have to show they're the only ones in charge of their denominations. And look at them all now.......... instead of overseers, they've become overlords, making the rules & throwing out everyone that breaks them. No wonder the church is going into apostasy.

Funny thing is, in other countries the underground churches have women's leaders in them & it's alright with christians behind the bamboo & the iron curtain. They're glad to have them. Annnd, these churches are growing.

So what do we sound like over here sitting on our hands, sacrificing nothing, but take authority that doesn't belong to us & judging them to hell for not lining up with our doctrine? Some would say self-righteous bigots, & hypocrites. We seem to have big enuff britches to judge them, but too much lead in our britches to get up & do something about it ourselves.

Why not let God judge them? Why not pray for God's will to be done?

Some of us could take some advice from a Jewish pharisee, a doctor of the Law:

Acts 5:34-39 (KJV) [SUP]34 [/SUP]Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; [SUP]35 [/SUP]And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. [SUP]37 [/SUP]After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. [SUP]38 [/SUP]And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [SUP]39 [/SUP]But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.

I hope this helps.

The_highwayman · Feb 28, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Spirit is not the operative word here, Wisdom is, and wisdom in the Hebrew is a feminine Noun, all variations of the Hebrew word wisdom in Proverbs is a feminine Noun. In Proverbs wisdom is referred to as a woman. Spirit in Hebrew is also a feminine Noun.

mystdancer50 · Feb 28, 2014

The devil has hated women since the beginning. We see in the Garden that God says that the devil and women will be at war. Genesis 3:15 states:

We know the Offspring is speaking of Christ. Enmity means hostility: the extreme ill will or hatred that exists between enemies. We see this in the churches and the world today and even here on this website.

God has no qualms about calling women to preach and lead and teach and evangelize and speak and prophesy, it is the devil that wants to keep women crushed and broken and battered and bruised. It is through women that God brings new life into our world through the womb. Women are to be the helpmeet of their husbands and husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Rather, though, they abuse and beat and batter and crush them beneath their feet. The devil wins every time a woman who is called by God is destroyed through the fear-mongering of men in the church.

There is a difference between women exercising authority and women preaching and leading and teaching. They do not mean the same thing. Because many refuse to look at the verse in 1 Timothy in the context of the church and time it was written, and also ignore the fact that Paul does not state that God said women could not teach in church, but rather that Paul himself doesn't allow it in that context and location for specific reasons, let's look at the words for a moment, shall we?

The definition of authority is right to command: the right or power to enforce rules or give orders; holder of power: somebody or something with official power; power given to somebody: power to act on behalf of somebody else, or official permission to do something

The Greek word used for authority in the context of 1 Timothy is one who with his own hands kills another or himself; one who acts on his own authority, autocratic; an absolute master; to govern, exercise dominion over one

Now, let's see what I believe women can be called to do by God:

preach: give sermon: to give a talk on a religious or moral subject, especially in church; urge people to accept idea: to make an opinion or attitude known to others and urge others to share it

Hmmm, nope, that doesn't line up with either definition of authority, which was forbidden. Okay. Next.

Lead: guide somebody: to show the way to others, usually by going ahead of them; be the way somewhere: to be the route or direction that goes to a particular place or in a particular direction; bring somebody or something: to bring a person or animal along with physical guidance, e.g. by holding the person's hand or pulling a horse's reins

No match to the forbidden authority word there either. Hmmm...okay, next.

teach: impart knowledge to somebody: to impart knowledge or skill to somebody by instruction or example; give lessons in subject: to give lessons in or provide information about a subject; give lessons to somebody: to give lessons to a person or animal

Nope. Not taking 'authority' there either.

What is ironic is that women will be bashed over the head and beaten with this one verse in 1 Timothy, which is Paul's opinion and instruction to a young man in a certain, specific situation, but, moving on...it's ironic that most teachers in the world are women and that's fine, that women can teach Sunday School and kids, but not men. Strange, since the most impressionable years are the young years. So, men of the church will trust women, weak and deceivable as they are, to influence their children in the most formidable years, but then will freak out and leap off bridges should a woman dare to speak the truth of the word of God by moving of Holy Spirit.

As you can see, godly women are not seeking authority, they are seeking to use the gifts God gives them to do the call He has placed on their lives and you know what, no matter how many foolish, prideful and pompous men say that we can't, you can't stop God. He will do what He wants. He will call who He wants. He will qualify those He calls. And, those who cause one of these He calls to stumble, beware. You do not know the mind of God, you do not know the intimacies between Him and another, just as they don't know what He has intimated to you. Do not call the things of God to be the works of satan. That is included in the portion of Scripture about the unforgivable sin. Be careful in assuming that you know, without a doubt, who God has and has not called, what He has and has not called them to.

notuptome · Feb 28, 2014

mystdancer50 said:

Not quite true. You are transliterating the verse to support a position not intended in the scripture. God will not have you or anyone else do things that are outside of His determinate will. God will never act in conflict with His word.

Read out of Gods word not into Gods word.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The_highwayman · Feb 28, 2014

notuptome said:

Practice what you preach, who said man and not the Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

mystdancer50 · Feb 28, 2014

notuptome said:

Deborah. Judge. Leader over Israel. Appointed by God. Led God's army to victory. Written in God's word.
Esther. Queen. Used by God to save the Jewish people. Written in God's Word.
The Samaritan Woman at the Well. Personal encounter with Jesus. Returned to her village and called them all, including the men, to meet Christ. They followed. Christ invited to stay in village for a few days. Many believed. Written in God's word.

I think you need to read His word more closely, sir.

PoxEclipse · Feb 28, 2014

Do you not know? Have you not heard?

Maybe once the body of Christ stops arguing over who has authority over who, and stop looking to man for answers instead of the Father and Son, there might actually be be some progress made...grow up people!

Study, pray, and meditate on the message/word you all claim to hold dear. In other words...put up or shut up!

We're all brothers and sisters, if the Father makes no differentiation between Jew and Gentile, then he certainly doesn't make a differentiation between man and woman.

So...next time your sister comes up and tells you she has something to say that she thinks is important and that has been on her mind to share with you...go ahead and tell her to shut up because she doesn't have a penis! I dare you!

Use these words..."You don't have a penis, and because of that, God won't enlighten you or put it on your heart to share anything with the rest of the body of Christ!"

What we have here is a failure to communicate...deaf, dumb, and blind hypocrites!

Who Is Greatest

24 And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ 26 But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. 27 For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

33 They came to Capernaum; and when He [t]was in the house, He began to question them, “What were you discussing on the way?” 34 But they kept silent, for on the way they had discussed with one another which of them was the greatest. 35 Sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, “If anyone wants to be first, [u]he shall be last of all and servant of all.” 36 Taking a child, He set him [v]before them, and taking him in His arms, He said to them, 37 “Whoever receives [w]one child like this in My name receives Me; and whoever receives Me does not receive Me, but Him who sent Me.”

The Test of Greatness

46 An argument [aa]started among them as to which of them might be the greatest. 47 But Jesus, knowing [ab]what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, 48 and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”

Rank in the Kingdom

18 At that [a]time the disciples came to Jesus and said, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 And He called a child to Himself and set him [b]before them, 3 and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you [c]are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; 6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it [d]would be better for him to have a [e]heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.

Peace...if you'll accept it.

dcontroversal · Feb 28, 2014

The_highwayman said:

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

According to the classification of nouns in Greek, Pneuma (Spirit) is classified neuter....

Key word is (GREEK) and how Pneuma is classified as Neuter and to try and teach the following based upon the feminine classification of wisdom is a bit of a stretch.....

Originally Posted by AmberGardner

According to the Bible wisdom is female, and she has a lot to say, you should read Proverbs

You'll either listen to and obey her, or her adversary, the woman Folly.

Wisdom sends out her female apostles.

Are females banned from your pulpit? Then there is no wisdom there.

biscuit · Feb 28, 2014

The_highwayman said:

Take it up with God

Angela53510 · Feb 28, 2014

So am I being insulted? Do my people in 2 long term care facilities go without pastoral care because a few American men have decided I should not be allowed to visit, to preach and to teach these people, men and women with serious illnesses, deformities and dementia? There is NO man to stand in the gap, so I am happy to obey the calling of God and use my training to be there for these people.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." 1 Tim. 2:12

Sadly, the word for "authority" in the Greek is not the word "exousia." That is the word Christ uses in Matt 28:18.

"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Exousia (ἐξουσία) is the word which describes those who are over us in power, dominion and status. Jesus says here that belongs to him alone. ALL - πᾶσα, means ALL! That means Jesus has authority over each man, woman and child on this earth. He also has authority over the heavens and the earth, Satan and his demons and anything else I might have left out. This word is used 103 times in the New Testament, and I am sure if you have Strong's you can look at all the uses for this word.

But in 1 Tim 2:12, the word for "authority" is authentein. (αὐθεντεῖν). This is a very different sort of word, and it only appears once in the entire Bible, also known as a Hapax Legomena.

Hapax Legomena are extremely difficult to translate. Because you can't cross reference in the Bible and see how the word is used elsewhere in Scripture. In fact, the only way to discover the meaning of the word, is to go to contemporaneous sources. That would be the works written in the same era and place as the book of Timothy. Then try and figure out if the meaning is the same in all those extra Biblical works, or something different.

In fact authentein or αὐθεντεῖν has over 50 different meanings for it. But by far, the most common is "domineer". But other meanings include murder, and copulate. So a very tricky word, that is constantly quoted as the final reference for the entire complementarian movement.

If it had been translated as "domineer" I would have no difficulties with the word or the passage. But King James, who also believed in divine right of kings, had his translators make it "authority" thus confusing it with exousia.

"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Tim 2:12 KJV

The word "exercise" in ESV or "usurp" in the KJV does not appear in any manuscripts in the Greek. So right there you are having some major translational issues. Because the word is a present indicative infinitive, we can't even use it as a verb in English. So you have to put a spin on authentein to even translate it. (Infinitives cannot hold the place of an active verb in a sentence in English) So you can't "to authority." Although "to domineer" works well in English. For that matter, the word "over", does not appear in the Greek either, another word which places the man "over" the woman. Here is the Greek, with my own translation below. Feel free to take it and translate it, using Strong's or whatever. But be careful not to use an internet site that backward translates the KJV, or you will get exactly what you started out with in English!

"διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ."
To teach and a woman not I allow/permit, and not, to domineer a man, but to be in quietness. (Word for word translation)

In fact, a better interpretation, based on cultural norms, Jewish traditions, and in context with verse 11, might be the following.

In New Testament times, women were not taught to read, nor to study. As these women became Christians, the leaders of the church saw their hunger to know more about God. Like the rabbis used to take students, who sat in silence and absorbed the words of their teachers, the women were instructed to be like the rabbinical students. The were to sit in silence and be taught. (looking at the Greek, it seems like διδάσκειν or "to teach" might well be in the wrong verse. Sadly, so many verses are out of place in their numbering, and it really does slant some passages)

So women were to learn in quietness, and not domineer over the man who was teaching. This might have been a real necessary challenge, considering the background of some of these women. They may have been pagan priestesses, from the temple of Artemis, which was a pagan religion of women ruling over men (not something I think Christ had in mind either). Women like this were also probably disrupting the services in Corinth, which is why Paul cautions the women to be quiet there. We are so used to our western society, it seems hard to believe that anyone would interrupt a religious service. Yet last year I attended an Orthodox Jewish service, and the men were on one side of a barrier, and the women on another. They frequently got up and started talking to one another over the barrier, in fairly loud tones. But it was totally accepted in that setting.

So rather than not permitting a woman to speak or teach, or have authority over the men, a closer look in the Greek reveals it is probably instructing the women to learn quietly and not to dominate the men. As for the not teaching a man, the Greek does not have "not" modifying the word διδάσκειν. Hmm. I had never noticed that before. You learn something new every day, don't you?

So not sure if that is enough. I could go into Eph. 5 and 1 Cor. 14 and discuss those verses in Greek, if you want.

I agree that women are not to dominate men. Nor men to dominate women! In fact, Eph 5 is always a reassurance, because it actually tells us to submit one to another.

"submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ." Eph. 5:21

And everyone will learn more if they are silent when the teacher is speaking. That one I know, having been a teacher for 20 years!

These bad Bible translations are part of the reason I object so strongly to the entire complementarian movement. Because they use their theology as a starting point to translate, rather than the culture in which it was written, and the people to whom it was being written. Hermeneutics really needs to be taught to every Christian and I think half the doctrinal errors we see in the BDF would never have been started.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

A strong statement about Greeks, slaves and women. That God sees us all as equal in Christ, mutually submitting to one another out of reverence to Christ. After all, Christ is the only authority, and women are answerable to God, not their husbands on Judgment Day.

(Written totally by me, but copied and pasted from another forum here at CC!) But I can give you the names of the Exegetical guides and Lexicons I used to prepare the above!)

biscuit · Feb 28, 2014

AmberGardner said:

If you do your research as I have you will noticed it is more symbolic/allegory than literal. We can call the wind a she; the Church a she; or any act of nurturing as a she. Is it actually a 'she?,' of course not.

Angela53510 · Feb 28, 2014

Here is an excellent study done by a man who did not believe that women could be in leadership. He studied the Greek, read many papers on both sides, and realized that the narrow view of the Southern Baptists and other fundamentalists was wrong.

Can Women Teach? James Choung
http://cms.intervarsity.org/mx/item/4175/download/

I am hoping someone will actually read the post I wrote, #54. I am open to comments, please use the Greek to support your position!

biscuit · Feb 28, 2014

Angela53510 said:

Angela, maybe when Jesus sits on His throne as Kings of kings & Lord of lords in Jerusalem, and establish a new covenant for the inhabitants of earth, proclaming women the right to minister at the pulpit with His blessing, I won't have a problem with it. You know and I know that women can preach, and do an excellent job ... however, God doesn't want or allow it. And until He approves of it I will have to honor His request because I am a Christian who abides in the Scriptures. Not a male thing or personal thing ... just obeying & serving the Lord.

Angela53510 · Feb 28, 2014

No biscuit, YOU don't want it or allow it, not God! You didn't even read my post doing the exegetics on 1 Tim. 2:12. I can do the whole passage, and the other passages which are the disputed passages that make up this whole ridiculous argument.

King James was very particular about certain things.
1. He was king by divine right.
2. Women were silly creatures and should never be put in charge of anything, let alone men.
3. He directed his translators to make his KJV slant towards his biases, not only in these passages, but others, and on other issues.

And yes, I'm saying it - other translators have picked up the biases, and woven them into their translations.

God allows woman as pastors, I'm doing it and I'm blessed and so are the people I care for. God called me, and he is using me in a place no man wants to go. If I was younger, I probably would have gotten involved with church planting and pastoring a church.

You are obeying King James and all the men down the line, including Catholics who continue to support this misogynist and poor interpretation of what Paul actually said in the Greek in the Bible.

Like I said, post it in Greek, and I will believe it. I know you can't, because you don't read Greek. I have read 100's of books on both sides of this issue, and the arguments for God not allowing women in ministry are so flimsy, it is staggering to me. I guess because they have really not studied the Greek and found out what God was saying through Paul.

Feel free to quote in the Greek where I am wrong. I am always willing to listen and learn.

Respectfully,
Pastor Angela

kingerik · Feb 28, 2014

Yes, Women Preachers are ...your men and your daughters shall prophesy. Women Preacher's are biblical and they are right, in fact, if not for a woman preacher, I would probably not have been saved. Please don't limit God and please understand the cultural time periods these books were written in.

I've seen some pretty powerful holy ghost filled women, and

If anyone uses 1 timothy, understand that this was promoting unity in the church not telling women they couldn't preach.

biscuit · Feb 28, 2014

kingerik said:

Again !! either you believe in the Scripture or you don't. There is no middle ground. If you have a problem with God's words, you have a problem with Him. It is just that simple.

Women preachers?

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