Messianic Christians?

[Linda70]

Jer 31:35-44 and Eze 36:29-30 are not promises of the new covenant (Heb 8:7-13).

First of all, I didn't say Jeremiah 31:35-44...since there are only 40 verses in Jeremiah 31. Secondly, all my references to Jeremiah 31 only went through verse 37. Hebrews 8:8-12 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and those verses ARE promises of a new covenant. Ezekiel 36:29-30 is the promise of God's blessing upon the land. Chapters 36-37 of Ezekiel is a description of Israel's restoration to their land. If you would read these prophecies IN CONTEXT you would see this. But instead, you want to "cherry pick" away at verses that seem to agree with your own "theology".....then you say what I said is "contrary to NT apostolic teaching."

Only Jer 31:31-34 is the new covenant promise, and it contains no physical blessings.

There you go with your "cherry picking" again. Why do you not read the ENTIRE 31st chapter of Jeremiah IN CONTEXT with the entire 32nd chapter of Jeremiah?

Apostolic teaching presents the New Covenant as being inaugurated (Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6) at the death of Jesus, and presents Jesus as its Mediator now (Heb 8:6, 9:15) for all God's people.

Due to the fact that you make NO distinctions between the nation of Israel and the Church and the prophecies which apply to each, you will continually have to "cherry pick" verses out of context to make them fit your "theology". Apostolic teaching makes distinctions between the nation of Israel and the Church.

"What you said" is contrary to NT apostolic teaching.

Sorry, but the "What you said" doesn't apply to me, but to you.

Things that are different, are not the same. The nation of Israel is not the Church...and the Church is not a "continuation" or "replacement" of the nation of Israel.

BTW, this topic (the new covenant) has nothing to do with the "doctrinal dangers of the Messianic Movement" in the body of Christ/the Church. I thought this thread concerned the error of Galatianism (the mixing of law with grace).

 

[Zinzerio]

I was raised Baptist and I grew up with Baptist beliefs. My mom got married to my stepdad...who is a Messianic Christian. I'm sorta conflicted with these teachings. This whole way of worshiping is very new to me, and I just wondered if there is anybody else who have the same beliefs?

Thereis nothing to fear, God will make your sorrow shine.

Im the same as you, dont worry your not alone, manytimes i hear stuff and see stuff an i say aw well what ever floats your boat, as long as ya happy, where im from its muli cultured asian african Caucasian jamacin columbian, it great society in liverpool 1, so anyways noone talks much about there beliefs, most people just carry on in there own world and everyone,

Make me think of a song that, as long as they dont start cutting chickens heads off in front of you dont worry

 

[RedTent]

BTW, this topic (the new covenant) has nothing to do with the "doctrinal dangers of the Messianic Movement" in the body of Christ/the Church. I thought this thread concerned the error of Galatianism (the mixing of law with grace).

Thanks, we are getting back on topic. It is about the accusations of mixing law with grace. The Messianic Movement is about the importance of the time of preparation for Christ, all of how it was done. That study would include that salvation and grace come first, law is only given after that. Obedience by the unsaved does not and never has resulted in salvation. It is about that being an accusation that should never be done to them.

That study includes the study of law and even why God gave rituals, but this thread is to point out that the church is in error when it says that study, and taking God seriously when he gave those rituals, is not using them for salvation.

 

[danschance]

I was raised Baptist and I grew up with Baptist beliefs. My mom got married to my stepdad...who is a Messianic Christian. I'm sorta conflicted with these teachings. This whole way of worshiping is very new to me, and I just wondered if there is anybody else who have the same beliefs?

I understand why you feel conflicted about "messianic Christians". Most are in the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM) even though most of them have never even been Jewish. We have some who will no doubt respond to your post and will speak in glowing terms of the HRM.

My advice is to stay away from it. They tend to think in twisted terms that the old Testament is more important than the new. They act more like Jews than Christian. They tend to only gather on Sabbath (Saturday), eat a kosher diet and call Jesus Yeshua. In my opinion they are in a cult like movement that glorifies law over grace. I would ignore their teachings and stick to your own Baptists roots.

 

[crossnote]

Which leaves you with no apostolic interpretation by which to measure your personal interpretation.But we do have much apostolic doctrine which disagrees with its contra-NT design.And that's where I will have to leave it. . .enjoying no apostolic doctrinal support.

Because the Apostles are dealing mainly with the Church something never prophecied in the OT, but was a mystery hidden, does that mean the Apostles were contra OT design. Your logic is lacking.

 

[RedTent]

I understand why you feel conflicted about "messianic Christians". Most are in the Hebrew Roots Movement (HRM) even though most of them have never even been Jewish. We have some who will no doubt respond to your post and will speak in glowing terms of the HRM.

My advice is to stay away from it. They tend to think in twisted terms that the old Testament is more important than the new. They act more like Jews than Christian. They tend to only gather on Sabbath (Saturday), eat a kosher diet and call Jesus Yeshua. In my opinion they are in a cult like movement that glorifies law over grace. I would ignore their teachings and stick to your own Baptists roots.

The HRM has nothing to do with being Jewish or not being Jewish.

My advise is to listen to HRM. The established churches have lost contact with the meaning of Christ in the OT so they do not know Christ as He should be known. You need to know what the OT is about, not a superficial reading of it, and how the NT is related in order to grow in the Lord. You are very lucky that you have an opportunity for this learning.

Just watch that you never are legalistic and superficial about any of it. As you can see by these posts, humans have a tendency to see only from the material side, not from how God sees things. Don't let these superficial people scare you off from learning.

 

[crossnote]

Thanks, we are getting back on topic. It is about the accusations of mixing law with grace. The Messianic Movement is about the importance of the time of preparation for Christ, all of how it was done. That study would include that salvation and grace come first, law is only given after that. Obedience by the unsaved does not and never has resulted in salvation. It is about that being an accusation that should never be done to them. That study includes the study of law and even why God gave rituals, but this thread is to point out that the church is in error when it says that study, and taking God seriously when he gave those rituals, is not using them for salvation.

Sorry, I read this 'after' my last posting.

 

[crossnote]

The HRM has nothing to do with being Jewish or not being Jewish.My advise is to listen to HRM. The established churches have lost contact with the meaning of Christ in the OT so they do not know Christ as He should be known. You need to know what the OT is about, not a superficial reading of it, and how the NT is related in order to grow in the Lord. You are very lucky that you have an opportunity for this learning. Just watch that you never are legalistic and superficial about any of it. As you can see by these posts, humans have a tendency to see only from the material side, not from how God sees things. Don't let these superficial people scare you off from learning.

I see the HRM as replacement theology in reverse. Instead of the Church replacing Israel (as RT holds), they are into Israel replacing the Church! Both groups fall into the same mistake of distinguishing the Church from Israel.

 

[Timeline]

If Jesus was actually the son of Joseph then he would have been born with sin and could not be our Savior. Notice the verse says "as was supposed" ...not actually.

Why is Joseph sin? I believe the virginity was the key. But that does not mean that Joseph wasn't His father. It just means they didn't have intercourse. Why would Joseph's lineage even be listen if Joseph wasn't involved?

 

[crossnote]

Why is Joseph sin? I believe the virginity was the key. But that does not mean that Joseph wasn't His father. It just means they didn't have intercourse. Why would Joseph's lineage even be listen if Joseph wasn't involved?

The sin nature is carried through procreation. Jesus was the only person born sinless. If Joseph was his father Jesus would have been born in sin.

 

[Zinzerio]

How about the messianic hrm movement here is this allowed The first thing to understand in this discussion is that there is only one race—the human race. Caucasians, Africans, Asians, Indians, Arabs, and Jews are not different races. Rather, they are different ethnicities of the human race. All human beings have the same physical characteristics (with minor variations, of course). More importantly, all human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27). God loved the world so much that He sent Jesus to lay down His life for us (John 3:16). The “world” obviously includes all ethnic groups.

God does not show partiality or favoritism (Deuteronomy 10:17; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Ephesians 6:9), and neither should we. James 2:4 describes those who discriminate as “judges with evil thoughts.” Instead, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves (James 2:8). In the Old Testament, God divided humanity into two “racial” groups: Jews and Gentiles. God’s intent was for the Jews to be a kingdom of priests, ministering to the Gentile nations. Instead, for the most part, the Jews became proud of their status and despised the Gentiles. Jesus Christ put an end to this, destroying the dividing wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:14). All forms of racism, prejudice, and discrimination are affronts to the work of Christ on the cross.

Jesus commands us to love one another as He loves us (John 13:34). If God is impartial and loves us with impartiality, then we need to love others with that same high standard. Jesus teaches in Matthew 25 that whatever we do to the least of His brothers, we do to Him. If we treat a person with contempt, we are mistreating a person created in God’s image; we are hurting somebody whom God loves and for whom Jesus died.

Racism, in varying forms and to various degrees, has been a plague on humanity for thousands of years. Brothers and sisters of all ethnicities, this should not be. Victims of racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to forgive. Ephesians 4:32 declares, “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” Racists may not deserve your forgiveness, but we deserved God’s forgiveness far less. Those who practice racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to repent. “Present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God” (Romans 6:13). May Galatians 3:28 be completely realized, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus and if it helps God to”

 

[Timeline]

The sin nature is carried through procreation. Jesus was the only person born sinless. If Joseph was his father Jesus would have been born in sin.

Yes, I agree. But I believe that the Holy Spirit put Joseph's seed into Mary.

 

[crossnote]

How about the messianic hrm movement here is this allowed The first thing to understand in this discussion is that there is only one race—the human race. Caucasians, Africans, Asians, Indians, Arabs, and Jews are not different races. Rather, they are different ethnicities of the human race. All human beings have the same physical characteristics (with minor variations, of course). More importantly, all human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26-27). God loved the world so much that He sent Jesus to lay down His life for us (John 3:16). The “world” obviously includes all ethnic groups.God does not show partiality or favoritism (Deuteronomy 10:17; Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11; Ephesians 6:9), and neither should we. James 2:4 describes those who discriminate as “judges with evil thoughts.” Instead, we are to love our neighbors as ourselves (James 2:8). In the Old Testament, God divided humanity into two “racial” groups: Jews and Gentiles. God’s intent was for the Jews to be a kingdom of priests, ministering to the Gentile nations. Instead, for the most part, the Jews became proud of their status and despised the Gentiles. Jesus Christ put an end to this, destroying the dividing wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:14). All forms of racism, prejudice, and discrimination are affronts to the work of Christ on the cross.Jesus commands us to love one another as He loves us (John 13:34). If God is impartial and loves us with impartiality, then we need to love others with that same high standard. Jesus teaches in Matthew 25 that whatever we do to the least of His brothers, we do to Him. If we treat a person with contempt, we are mistreating a person created in God’s image; we are hurting somebody whom God loves and for whom Jesus died.Racism, in varying forms and to various degrees, has been a plague on humanity for thousands of years. Brothers and sisters of all ethnicities, this should not be. Victims of racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to forgive. Ephesians 4:32 declares, “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” Racists may not deserve your forgiveness, but we deserved God’s forgiveness far less. Those who practice racism, prejudice, and discrimination need to repent. “Present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God” (Romans 6:13). May Galatians 3:28 be completely realized, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus and if it helps God to”

That's our modern humanistic perspective otherwise explain this verse and still maintain God does not change.Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth..Sounds like a respecter of nations...maybe not individuals.

 

[RedTent]

I see the HRM as replacement theology in reverse. Instead of the Church replacing Israel (as RT holds), they are into Israel replacing the Church! Both groups fall into the same mistake of distinguishing the Church from Israel.

I don't see that the bible teaches replacement theology at all. When the book of Romans teaches about the Jew/gentile question, no replacement theology answers are the same as Romans teaches. Besides, the bible uses "Israel" in several ways, and only the context of the verse tells us what it means. Sometimes bible is talking about a country, sometimes it talks of all who are saved by the Lord, etc.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, I agree. But I believe that the Holy Spirit put Joseph's seed into Mary.

I'll then have to challenge you to give me a verse. (Also this topic needs to go on it's own thread)Isa 7:14

 

[danschance]

The HRM has nothing to do with being Jewish or not being Jewish.

My advise is to listen to HRM. The established churches have lost contact with the meaning of Christ in the OT so they do not know Christ as He should be known. You need to know what the OT is about, not a superficial reading of it, and how the NT is related in order to grow in the Lord. You are very lucky that you have an opportunity for this learning.

Just watch that you never are legalistic and superficial about any of it. As you can see by these posts, humans have a tendency to see only from the material side, not from how God sees things. Don't let these superficial people scare you off from learning.

I have no desire to get tripped up in the twisted theology of the HRM. They are judaizers who pervert the work of the cross by mingling it with obey laws which are no longer in effect. They mix law with grace and feel superior for it. Law keeping is nothing more than self righteousness and few are more self righteous than those of the HRM who post here. It is nothing but new twist on an old lie that we must be like the Jews (obey the Sabbath, keep the feasts, obey the Mosaic laws, wear a tallit, a kippa, use Hebrew terms instead of Greek terms, read the old testament more often than the new Testament, call others lawless who are not in the HRM, etc, etc, etc.)

No thankx, I have absolutely no desire at all to get involved with the demonic lies of that filthy movement.

 

[RedTent]

That's our modern humanistic perspective otherwise explain this verse and still maintain God does not change.Deuteronomy 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth..Sounds like a respecter of nations...maybe not individuals.

In the sense that God sees all as His creation, with equal love for all when we turn to Him, we are all the same. In the sense that God gave one people a special mission for everyone and gives that nation a special blessing because of that, one nation is specially blessed.

 

[RedTent]

I have no desire to get tripped up in the twisted theology of the HRM. They are judaizers who pervert the work of the cross by mingling it with obey laws which are no longer in effect. They mix law with grace and feel superior for it. Law keeping is nothing more than self righteousness and few are more self righteous than those of the HRM who post here. It is nothing but new twist on an old lie that we must be like the Jews (obey the Sabbath, keep the feasts, obey the Mosaic laws, wear a tallit, a kippa, use Hebrew terms instead of Greek terms, read the old testament more often than the new Testament, call others lawless who are not in the HRM, etc, etc, etc.)

No thankx, I have absolutely no desire at all to get involved with the demonic lies of that filthy movement.

And I have not desire to get mixed up in your twisted theology.

 

[Timeline]

I'll then have to challenge you to give me a verse. (Also this topic needs to go on it's own thread)Isa 7:14

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]When He began His ministry, Jesus Himself was about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, the son of Joseph, the son of Eli,

Engaged, but no sex. Joseph was the father without having had intercourse. How do you suppose that the Holy Spirit placed the seed in Mary? Much the same way that it was obtained from Joseph!

 

[Elin]

Here's what I said:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The New Covenant is God's promise to give free blessing to men through Jesus Christ (Jeremiah 31:1-33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 10:9-22). It was given to the nation Israel (Jeremiah 31:1-34), but Christians also share in the spiritual aspects of the New covenant through Christ
(Hebrews 8:7-13).
The New covenant with Israel promises that God will restore them to their promised land and give them a new heart to obey Him. This will happen when Jesus returns from Heaven (Romans 11:25-27; Zec 13).

The New Covenant was made with the nation of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31).
It will replace the Mosaic covenant (Jeremiah 31:32; Hebrews 10:8-9).
It promises regeneration and cleansing from sin
(Jeremiah 31:33-34).
It reaffirms Israel's national security and future kingdom
(Jeremiah 31:35-37).
It promises Israel's possession of the land (Jeremiah 32:37,41-44).
It is eternal (Jeremiah 32:40).
It promises God's blessing upon the land (Ezekiel 36:29-30).

Jer 31:35-44 and Eze 36:29-30 are not promises of the new covenant
(Heb 8:7-13).

First of all, I didn't say Jeremiah 31:35-44...since there are only 40 verses in Jeremiah 31.

Secondly, all my references to Jeremiah 31 only went through verse 37.
Hebrews 8:8-12 is a direct quote from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and those verses ARE promises of a new covenant.

Agreed. . .I should have said Jer 31:35--32:44.

I apologize.

Ezekiel 36:29-30 is the promise of God's blessing upon the land.
Chapters 36-37 of Ezekiel is a description of Israel's restoration to their land.

Agreed. . .but neither of them is God's promise of a new covenant, and sheds no light on its terms.

The terms of the new covenant are found in the OT only in its promise in Jer 31:31-34,
and in the NT in its fulfillment in Heb 8:7-13, 9:15.

If you would read these prophecies IN CONTEXT you would see this.

I do. . .and I do.

Promises of restoration to the land were fulfilled with their return from Babylon under Nehemiah,
when the walls and the Temple were rebuilt, and worship restored (Ne 12:43).

There is no land promise remaining to Israel,
nor any land promise to Israel in the new covenant promise of Jer 31:31-34.

But instead, you want to "cherry pick" away at verses that seem to agree with your own "theology"

That's called a red herring.

Address the point presented, and don't try to distract with a false issue.
It's not about "cherry picking," it's about apostolic teaching.

Either the apostles teach what I present, or they don't.
And that has nothing to do with "cherry picking". . .and everything to do with Biblical examination
in the light of NT apostolic teaching.

.....then you say what I said is "contrary to NT apostolic teaching."

Yes, and I have shown that it is.

It now falls to you to show where the apostles teach it.

Only Jer 31:31-34 is the new covenant promise, and it contains no physical blessings.

There you go with your "cherry picking" again.

Why do you not read the ENTIRE 31st chapter of Jeremiah
IN CONTEXT with the entire 32nd chapter of Jeremiah?

Red herring. . .the issue is not "cherry picking," and of which texts you fail to show the error.
The issue is the terms of the new covenant promise, which you likewise fail to address.

Nor does "context" show Jer 32 containing the terms of the new covenant promise (Jer 31:31-34).
There is no land promise to Israel in the new covenant promise of Jer 31:31-34, nor in Heb 8:7-13.

Apostolic teaching presents the New Covenant as being inaugurated (Lk 22:20; 2Co 3:6) at the death of Jesus, and presents Jesus as its Mediator now (Heb 8:6, 9:15) for all God's people.

Due to the fact that you make NO distinctions between the nation of Israel and the Church and the prophecies which apply to each, you will continually have to "cherry pick" verses out of context to make them fit your "theology".
Apostolic teaching makes distinctions between the nation of Israel and the Church.

1) Please show the distinctions which the apostles teach regarding the church and Israel
in the new covenant of Jer 31:31-34, or Lk 22:20, or 2Co 3:6, or Heb 8:6 or 9:15.

Would they be Ro 9:27, 11:5, 23 or Gal 3:28-29, or Eph 2:15-16, or. . .?

"What you said" is contrary to NT apostolic teaching

Sorry, but the "What you said" doesn't apply to me, but to you.

2) Please show where what I present is contrary to NT apostolic teaching.