Is the Gift of Tongues for everyone???

[VCO]

Nothing I say or you say will change our theological views. Suffice to say we see it very differently.

I have discussed or debated this subject for twenty five years, and they always end in a stalemate where we agree to disagree.

The difference that I see as the last remaining hurdle to agreeing, is one hurdle that appears to be too high:

You who believe in modern day tongues, appear to always put personal experience, what you have seen, and feelings over and above what the Bible says.

While we who do not believe in it, will never trust personal experiences, manifestations, and feelings, that have not and cannot pass the Test of Scriptures. We put our whole trust in what the Word of God says, and believe there are no contradictions in the Bible if it is interpreted correctly.

You go show me the sign gifts, and I will believe.

We go show me the verses, the context, the fact that it does not contradict other scriptures, and that manifesting it does not happen differently than what the Bible actually says, and then I will believe.

Why will we remain firm that it has to happen that way or we will never believe it?

Malachi 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. {And Paul worked miracles among those he spoke to and still they insisted on putting him to the Test of the Scriptures. 2 Cor. 12:12 }

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

Matthew 24:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good {or edification, Rom. 14:20}.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it {John 1:12-13, Col. 2:6, Rom. 10:9} .

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

 

[endtimes]

I have discussed or debated this subject for twenty five years, and they always end in a stalemate where we agree to disagree.

The difference that I see as the last remaining hurdle to agreeing, is one hurdle that appears to be too high:

You who believe in modern day tongues, appear to always put personal experience, what you have seen, and feelings over and above what the Bible says.

While we who do not believe in it, will never trust personal experiences, manifestations, and feelings, that have not and cannot pass the Test of Scriptures. We put our whole trust in what the Word of God says, and believe there are no contradictions in the Bible if it is interpreted correctly.

You go show me the sign gifts, and I will believe.

We go show me the verses, the context, the fact that it does not contradict other scriptures, and that manifesting it does not happen differently than what the Bible actually says, and then I will believe.

It is amazing that those whom do not speak in tongues presume to be the foremost authority on the matter. I doubt very much that you are able to admit being wrong or incorrect all these years. At any rate, lets take you up on your boast.

Here is the scripture that this video clip is in context to...


1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.



Here is the video clip, that it was done as the scriptures say, by two, or at the most by three (and in course) and one interpret.

Here is the video link...


True Worship and Praise recorded on Dec. 5, 2010


God bless!

 

[VCO]

It is amazing that those whom do not speak in tongues presume to be the foremost authority on the matter. I doubt very much that you are able to admit being wrong or incorrect all these years. At any rate, lets take you up on your boast.

Here is the scripture that this video clip is in context to...


1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.



Here is the video clip, that it was done as the scriptures say, by two, or at the most by three (and in course) and one interpret.

Here is the video link...


God bless!

I thank you for the video link, but no I was not blessed. I saw disobedience being masqueraded as worship:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35 (HCSB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] since God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints,
[SUP]34 [/SUP] the women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] And if they want to learn something, they should ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church meeting.

As for the interpreter, she was in disobedience too, in Corinth it would have always been a man who was the Interpreter.

I am reminded of how Dallas Theological Seminary Students put the so-called modern day gift of Interpretations to the Test about two decades ago. One of them memorized the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew. Then a group of them went to the largest Charismatic Church in Dallas. When others in the Congregation started to speak in unkown tongues, and the interpreter stood and gave the interpretation, then the Student from Dallas Theological Seminary stood and gave his recitation of the 23rd Psalm in Hebrew. Sure enough the same interpreter then stood and gave a very biblical sounding interpretation, BUT NOT ONE WORD OF IT WAS FROM THE 23rd Psalm.

Now what about what was happening in Corinth. Yes there were unbelieving Jews there, when Paul started the Church at Corinth he was actually preaching in the Synagogue, so there were Jews to "hear them in Tongues speaking in their own "dialektos" the mighty works of GOD being proclaimed, just like the Apostles did:

Next Paul journeyed to Athens (17:16-34), where his ministry was not as fruitful as it had been elsewhere, so after a time he moved on to Corinth, where he had a lengthy and fruitful ministry (18:1-18a).

When Paul arrived in Corinth, Silas and Timothy were not with him (18:5), but he did find a couple who were Jewish refugees from Rome – Aquila and Priscilla.388 Aquila was a tentmaker, like Paul, and so the two worked together at their trade. This seems to have limited the time and energy Paul could devote to preaching the gospel. Every Sabbath he would go to the synagogue and seek to persuade those attending to trust in Jesus as their Messiah. When Silas and Timothy arrived from Macedonia (18:5), they must have brought a contribution from the saints there (Philippians 4:15-16) because Paul was now able to devote himself completely to preaching the word.
Opposition to Paul’s preaching seems to have increased proportionately with the time he spent at the synagogue, and with the number of Jews and God-fearers who were coming to faith. When the Jews strongly opposed Paul’s teaching at the synagogue, he shook the dust from his garments and moved next door to the house of Titius Justus, a Gentile God-fearer, who seems to have come to faith in Jesus as the Messiah. Even so there were a number of Jewish converts, including Crispus, the president of the synagogue, who believed, along with his entire household.389 https://bible.org/seriespage/1-corinthians-troubled-church

Other converts were coming out of the Greek Mystery Religions, such as the Worship of Zeus and the Worship of Aphrodite. Their followers were VERY HABITED to speaking in unknown tongues, where their Pagan Priests told them that they were speaking in a language only the gods understood. These Ecstatic Utterances were not an earthly language like the apostles did, and generated intense exciting feelings. Even Plato referred to it as "It was as if I linked up with the gods." It is well documented that the Mystery Religions were using unknown tongues as far back as 400 B.C., and some say it can be traced back as far as 1100 B.C. Now obviously that is: unknown tongues, but is that what the original Word of God actually said in the original manuscripts. While you quote the KJV, you did not include leaving the words in italics, to indicate that they were added by the Translators, to what the original manuscripts actually said.

1 Corinthians 14:27-28 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Let me verify that for you, the Greek number after the word tongue is <G1100> and the Greek number before the word tongue is <G2980> which was translated "speak". So you can see, the word "unknown", never was in the original Greek. So what did the <G1100> word glōssa actually mean:

Greek Strong's Number: 1100Greek Word: γλῶσσα
Transliteration: glōssa
Phonetic Pronunciation:

gloce-sah'
Root: of uncertain affinity
Cross Reference: TDNT - 1:719,123
Part of Speech: n f
Vine's Words: Tongue



Usage Notes:

English Words used in KJV:
tongue 50
[Total Count: 50]

of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specially one naturally unacquired) :- tongue.


Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

Notice now, in the original language, it NEVER meant UNKNOWN LANGUAGE, it only meant tongue, referring only to language. Paul speaking by inspiration of God did not authorize the use of an Unkown Language, like the Pagans used, it was purely an add on word put there by the KJV Translators, that ONLY added confusion to the verse and GOD is not the author of confusion:

1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

NOTICE: That is 5 verses below verse 28 still in the context of the verses that you quoted, and look again at the very next verse in the context we are looking at:

1 Corinthians 14:34 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.


I thank you again for the video, but having put the Charismatic Experience to the Test of Scripture, it once again, fails the Test of Scripture, which even Paul himself had to PASS.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[StoneThrower]

It is amazing that those whom do not speak in tongues presume to be the foremost authority on the matter. I doubt very much that you are able to admit being wrong or incorrect all these years. At any rate, lets take you up on your boast.

Here is the scripture that this video clip is in context to...


1 Corinthians .14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1 Corinthians 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.



Here is the video clip, that it was done as the scriptures say, by two, or at the most by three (and in course) and one interpret.

Here is the video link...


True Worship and Praise recorded on Dec. 5, 2010


God bless!

I liked the lead guiatar solo, but the repetation was mind numbing. I couldnt hang past the bass solo.

 

[fredjames]

May I show you what it really says happened at the household of Cornelius? By the way I am not attacking your beliefs, but you seem to have missed something. I am surprised, but that is first time I ever heard that theory that you presented in all of my years as a born again Christian. The Scriptures are very specific about what happened there, and the WHY it happened, EXACTLY like it did for the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost, the mighty wind, the tongues of fire on their heads, and speaking to unbelieving Jews in their own native dialects. The secret to a full understanding lies in the FACT that the unbelieving Jews would have denied that Gentiles can be saved just like the Jews who believed in JESUS, or that if they were saved, they were a lower class of Christians. Who were the unbelieving Jews, Peter's followers, did not believe Gentiles could be considered CLEAN by GOD. Remember Peter's vision? Jews believe Gentiles and their houses were UNCLEAN because they did not follow the Dietary Laws. Jews NEVER entered a Gentile's house because of that belief. Even the SLIGHTEST difference in the gift of Tongues, to the Jewish Believers would driven them to suspect it was a counterfeit or to continue to believe that Gentiles were a lower class of believers than Jewish believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple? Jews throughout all of there prior history thought of Gentiles as a lower class of believers. Even Peter struggled with believing that Gentile believers were equal to them in the site of GOD.

Acts 10:28 (NKJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Acts 10:34 (NKJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality.

Acts 10:44-45 (NKJV)
[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 11:1-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The apostles and the brothers who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles had welcomed God’s message also.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] When Peter went up to Jerusalem, those who stressed circumcision argued with him,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] saying, “You visited uncircumcised men and ate with them!”
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Peter began to explain to them in an orderly sequence, saying:
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “I was in the town of Joppa praying, and I saw, in a visionary state, an object that resembled a large sheet coming down, being lowered by its four corners from heaven, and it came to me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When I looked closely and considered it, I saw the four-footed animals of the earth, the wild beasts, the reptiles, and the birds of the sky.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Then I also heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat!’
[SUP]8 [/SUP] “‘No, Lord!’ I said. ‘For nothing common or ritually unclean has ever entered my mouth!’
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But a voice answered from heaven a second time, ‘What God has made clean, you must not call common.’
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “Now this happened three times, and then everything was drawn up again into heaven.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] At that very moment, three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea arrived at the house where we were.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then the Spirit told me to accompany them with no doubts at all. These six brothers accompanied me, and we went into the man’s house.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] He reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house and saying, ‘Send to Joppa, and call for Simon, who is also named Peter.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] He will speak a message to you that you and all your household will be saved by.’
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came down on them, just as on us at the beginning.


That would be with the mighty wind, the tongues of fire, and proclaiming the mighty works of GOD in the presence of the unbelieving Jews that came along with Peter, convincing them ONCE AND FOR ALL, that GOD SHOWS NO PARTIALITY.

Apostle Peter did acknowledge about the same gift the Gentiles received, as theirs. received on the day of Pentecost. He did not know nor understood the meaning of these tongues in order to differentiate. Only when the crowd in Jerusalem who heard them, confessed hearing their mother tongues being uttered. Apostle Peter proclaims this as being a promise and are to take place one day, as foretold by Prophet Joel. He only knew them as what he witnessed personally and as according to Scripture foretelling and also witnessing the same in the household of Cornelius. What he only knew about them, are as follows, written in Acts 2;4:

"And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT and began to speak in other tongues as the SPIRIT gave them utterance."

He was not able to know and tell what kind of tongues are being uttered. Only Apostle Paul had revelation regarding these gift and explain to the Gentiles about their gift that requires interpretation and how to use them in obedience and submission to GOD in the meeting places.

In 1Corinthians 13;1, he also go on to say,

"What if I speak the tongues of men and of angels, ........................................................................"

'Divided tongues' are given to each one of them, in praising and thanksgiving to GOD, in the SPIRIT. There is also tongues of angels among tongues of men, in order to praise and give thanks to GOD. Even angels worship GOD, the same in Heaven in praising and thanksgiving, written in the book of Revelation.

And so, i am sorry that my testimony was incomplete because not only the tongues of angels but also of men fell upon the household of Cornelius that day. And you may not agree with me on these that i have been taught and believe and have confessed but it is okay. We do not want to divert to other things in discussion apart from the posted Tread question because it will only divert others from the justified truth posted in relation to the Tread. We may carry on in private messaging or we may move on.

Thank you for you help, dearly beloved VCO, in straightening up others, according to the written and justified Holy Scripture, for our remembrance and for stirring up our memory.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

 

[VCO]

Apostle Peter did acknowledge about the same gift the Gentiles received, as theirs. received on the day of Pentecost. He did not know nor understood the meaning of these tongues in order to differentiate. Only when the crowd in Jerusalem who heard them, confessed hearing their mother tongues being uttered. Apostle Peter proclaims this as being a promise and are to take place one day, as foretold by Prophet Joel. He only knew them as what he witnessed personally and as according to Scripture foretelling and also witnessing the same in the household of Cornelius. What he only knew about them, are as follows, written in Acts 2;4:

"And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT and began to speak in other tongues as the SPIRIT gave them utterance."

He was not able to know and tell what kind of tongues are being uttered. Only Apostle Paul had revelation regarding these gift and explain to the Gentiles about their gift that requires interpretation and how to use them in obedience and submission to GOD in the meeting places.

In 1Corinthians 13;1, he also go on to say,

"What if I speak the tongues of men and of angels, ........................................................................"

'Divided tongues' are given to each one of them, in praising and thanksgiving to GOD, in the SPIRIT. There is also tongues of angels among tongues of men, in order to praise and give thanks to GOD. Even angels worship GOD, the same in Heaven in praising and thanksgiving, written in the book of Revelation.

And so, i am sorry that my testimony was incomplete because not only the tongues of angels but also of men fell upon the household of Cornelius that day. And you may not agree with me on these that i have been taught and believe and have confessed but it is okay. We do not want to divert to other things in discussion apart from the posted Tread question because it will only divert others from the justified truth posted in relation to the Tread. We may carry on in private messaging or we may move on.

Thank you for you help, dearly beloved VCO, in straightening up others, according to the written and justified Holy Scripture, for our remembrance and for stirring up our memory.

May GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you with HIS kindness and peace.

And every time the angels spoke to men in the Bible, they spoke VERY ELOQUENTLY, with BOLDNESS AND with UNDENIABLE AUTHORITY in the language of the person being spoken to, which is what Paul was referring to. A secret angelic language is a figment of the modern day Charismatic tongues believer's mind, trying desperately to justify his counterfeit tongues experience.

Honest, I am not trying to be rude, I am lovingly trying to show you that your experience and the feelings they generate are not Biblical. The original Tongues were a sign for the Jews, who would not believe a Prophet or Apostles, unless they did miracles to Validate their message came from GOD. They always spoke in the Jewish hearer's Native language and dialect, or when many unbelieving Jews from many countries were present, the miracle most likely included the ability for the hearers to simultaneously hear every word. Every one of those unbelieving Jews heard in their own Native language and dialect, and they specifically heard them declaring the might works of GOD, which is very important to a JEW.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:22 (NRSV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom,

You have lowered the standard of the Miracle of Tongues in your minds, to the level of imitating the Ecstatic Utterances of the pagan Mystery Religions known as unknown tongues, and then puff yourself up with pride and feelings, claiming "I received THEE gift of the Holy Spirit", when it is nothing more than psychological phenomena and learned behavior. I am sorry, but comparing the modern day experience, to the Real McCoy, that is the conclusion that I have to come to.

Honest, I am not trying to offend, but I need to do what I can, to open your eyes to the Truth. I have been discussing and debating this subject for 25 years, ever since my wife and I came out the Charismatic Movement, because we saw overwhelming evidence, that the Charismatic Experience was not what happened to the Apostles, and something far less than what they did. The shear frequency that someone wants to debate or discuss this subject with me is unbelievable. On this thread alone, I find myself repeating and repeating, (there is nothing new under the sun), and that is not counting a single post on another thread, or several other sites, or numerous personal hand written letters, nor the 12 page had written study I wrote 25 years ago, retyped and saved on my computer, "The Gift of Tongues - A non-charismatic understanding". In other words, I grow weary of discussing this subject.

So without repeating myself any more, I noticed that you made several points that I already responded to from others on this thread. You will find my primary answers on my posts #111, #117, and #120.

You all who believe in tongues get excited discussing this subject, but I find it to be much, much more exciting to discuss the work of the ministry. For those who do not know this, it is not the Pastor's job to do the work of the ministry, it is his job to teach us to do the work of the ministry. And to me the most exciting subject of all, is studying and discussing the Jewish Wedding Traditions and how they relate to Christ Calling Out His Bride to Go to the Wedding of the Lamb.

 

[The_highwayman]

I have discussed or debated this subject for twenty five years, and they always end in a stalemate where we agree to disagree.

The difference that I see as the last remaining hurdle to agreeing, is one hurdle that appears to be too high:

You who believe in modern day tongues, appear to always put personal experience, what you have seen, and feelings over and above what the Bible says.

While we who do not believe in it, will never trust personal experiences, manifestations, and feelings, that have not and cannot pass the Test of Scriptures. We put our whole trust in what the Word of God says, and believe there are no contradictions in the Bible if it is interpreted correctly.

You go show me the sign gifts, and I will believe.

We go show me the verses, the context, the fact that it does not contradict other scriptures, and that manifesting it does not happen differently than what the Bible actually says, and then I will believe.

Why will we remain firm that it has to happen that way or we will never believe it?

Malachi 3:6 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

Acts 17:11 (NIV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. {And Paul worked miracles among those he spoke to and still they insisted on putting him to the Test of the Scriptures. 2 Cor. 12:12 }

2 Corinthians 5:7 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] We live by faith, not by sight.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (NIV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,

Matthew 24:24 (NIV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 (NIV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good {or edification, Rom. 14:20}.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it {John 1:12-13, Col. 2:6, Rom. 10:9} .

Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

You would not believe even if a sign gift walked up to you and kicked you in your rear...

 

[ForthAngel]

You would not believe even if a sign gift walked up to you and kicked you in your rear...

Show us a real one and let's find out.

 

[StoneThrower]

Show us a real one and let's find out.

Hey heres a real peice of work, Todd White hes a street healer. Enjoy the show, the beer probably helped ;-)

[video=youtube;ct0XaP7lUvQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct0XaP7lUvQ[/video]

 

[Stephen63]

Show us a real one and let's find out.

You DO know that not even Jesus Himself could do this when the scribes & pharisees demanded proof? There's a reason for that...... He was led by the Spirit. Thru the Spirit Jesus could see what the Father did, & did it likewise.

John 5:19-20 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:30 (KJV) [SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Neither can a Spirit-filled christian at will manifest any gift.

 

[ForthAngel]

You DO know that not even Jesus Himself could do this when the scribes & pharisees demanded proof? There's a reason for that...... He was led by the Spirit. Thru the Spirit Jesus could see what the Father did, & did it likewise.

John 5:19-20 (KJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP]Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 5:30 (KJV) [SUP]30 [/SUP]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Neither can a Spirit-filled christian at will manifest any gift.

We live in a digital age. There are hundreds of thousands of videos online of people already being led by the "Spirit" and documented. Please show us a real revelatory gift in our modern era and please provide a fake one. Then please explain the difference.

 

[Stephen63]

We live in a digital age. There are hundreds of thousands of videos online of people already being led by the "Spirit" and documented. Please show us a real revelatory gift in our modern era and please provide a fake one. Then please explain the difference.

I'll show YOU NOTHING........... blind people can't see. Now, go ahead with your little speech just like the others do..... those that truly see can't be moved.

 

[VCO]

You would not believe even if a sign gift walked up to you and kicked you in your rear...

NO, because the current manifestation of them, is not being done like the Apostles did them. Their purpose of validating the New Testament authors were speaking from God is fulfilled.

That is a sure sign of a counterfeit.

 

[VCO]

We live in a digital age. There are hundreds of thousands of videos online of people already being led by the "Spirit" and documented. Please show us a real revelatory gift in our modern era and please provide a fake one. Then please explain the difference.

I would have no problem believing any Tongues where at least one unbelieving Jew was hearing in his own native dialect, as the speaker proclaimed the mighty works of God in that dialect that he had never learned, leading that Jew to repent, and receive Jesus as Lord; and if it was in a modern day Church, the playback could validate ever word.


I would have not problem in believing the male Interpreter, who could miraculously interpret any earthly language accurately, (God's work is PERFECT), no matter what was said, and the recording in that Church validated both the accuracy of the speaker's tongue language, and the Jew's personal testimony of what was said, and the total accuracy of the translation checked out on the recording.

In other words, just do it like the Apostles did, and anything less is a counterfeit.

 

[Osiyo]

Stop please everybody, we all have guns with our eyes blindfolded and we are try to hit a moving target, same effect, no hits!


For it is written: the biblical argument blood-bought ones, Biblical => 1Cor 12:27-31

1Cor. 12:27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.
1Cor. 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Cor. 12:29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Cor. 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Cor. 12:31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.

In the preceding verses of Chapter 12, Paul had taught that the Church is made up of individuals each with different God-given gifts, yet the Body can only function in a healthy way if it works as a team just as the various parts of the human body work together.

The sin of the Corinthian church was that it elevated one gift (i.e., speaking in tongues) above all other gifts in importance and desirability, and the church taught all members to seek the attainment of that gift. Paul responded by teaching that this kind of thinking regarding spiritual gifts is wrong.

First, not all Christians are given the same spiritual gift nor can we acquire spiritual gifts for ourselves merely because we desire them. God alone assigns spiritual gifts by the Spirit. Simply put, not every Christian has the same gift, and therefore it is impossible for every Christian to possess the gift of tongues (see 1Cor 12:30). Therefore, it is wrong for a church to teach believers they can (and must) acquire the gift of tongues, for this is impossible according to Scripture.

 

[ForthAngel]

Hey heres a real peice of work, Todd White hes a street healer. Enjoy the show, the beer probably helped ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct0XaP7lUvQ[/video]

Sad that this is compared to a miracle of God isn't it? This guy is more convincing and he isn't even a Christian. Hope he doesn't decide to start a church:

[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw0AOj12Exw[/video]

 

[fredjames]

And every time the angels spoke to men in the Bible, they spoke VERY ELOQUENTLY, with BOLDNESS AND with UNDENIABLE AUTHORITY in the language of the person being spoken to, which is what Paul was referring to. A secret angelic language is a figment of the modern day Charismatic tongues believer's mind, trying desperately to justify his counterfeit tongues experience.

Honest, I am not trying to be rude, I am lovingly trying to show you that your experience and the feelings they generate are not Biblical. The original Tongues were a sign for the Jews, who would not believe a Prophet or Apostles, unless they did miracles to Validate their message came from GOD. They always spoke in the Jewish hearer's Native language and dialect, or when many unbelieving Jews from many countries were present, the miracle most likely included the ability for the hearers to simultaneously hear every word. Every one of those unbelieving Jews heard in their own Native language and dialect, and they specifically heard them declaring the might works of GOD, which is very important to a JEW.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In the law it is written: "With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me," says the Lord.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:22 (NRSV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom,

You have lowered the standard of the Miracle of Tongues in your minds, to the level of imitating the Ecstatic Utterances of the pagan Mystery Religions known as unknown tongues, and then puff yourself up with pride and feelings, claiming "I received THEE gift of the Holy Spirit", when it is nothing more than psychological phenomena and learned behavior. I am sorry, but comparing the modern day experience, to the Real McCoy, that is the conclusion that I have to come to.

Honest, I am not trying to offend, but I need to do what I can, to open your eyes to the Truth. I have been discussing and debating this subject for 25 years, ever since my wife and I came out the Charismatic Movement, because we saw overwhelming evidence, that the Charismatic Experience was not what happened to the Apostles, and something far less than what they did. The shear frequency that someone wants to debate or discuss this subject with me is unbelievable. On this thread alone, I find myself repeating and repeating, (there is nothing new under the sun), and that is not counting a single post on another thread, or several other sites, or numerous personal hand written letters, nor the 12 page had written study I wrote 25 years ago, retyped and saved on my computer, "The Gift of Tongues - A non-charismatic understanding". In other words, I grow weary of discussing this subject.

So without repeating myself any more, I noticed that you made several points that I already responded to from others on this thread. You will find my primary answers on my posts #111, #117, and #120.

You all who believe in tongues get excited discussing this subject, but I find it to be much, much more exciting to discuss the work of the ministry. For those who do not know this, it is not the Pastor's job to do the work of the ministry, it is his job to teach us to do the work of the ministry. And to me the most exciting subject of all, is studying and discussing the Jewish Wedding Traditions and how they relate to Christ Calling Out His Bride to Go to the Wedding of the Lamb.

Please dearly beloved, with all due respect as an elder, referring to the first paragraph, let us not mix up between ministering spirits and the gift of tongues in believers. Angels are to my taught Kingdom of GOD knowledge are witnesses and messengers and worshipers and reporters and protectors and rescuers and also warriors .....................(ministering spirits, Hebrews 1;13,14).

On the other hand, about the gift of speaking in tongues given to the Gentile church, Apostle Paul explains clearly about them in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, and in verse 2 a conclusion that:

"For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to GOD, for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the SPIRIT."

For tongues that fell on the day of Pentecost, witnesses understood them and testified. They are different from what Apostle Paul instructions to the Gentile believers in order for them to know and understand the meaning and the use and the control over their tongues, as they continue in the 'The Way', in service to others, 'to serve and not to be served'.

Cornelius and his household were Gentiles. When they received their tongues indoor and together when there was a loud utterance, there were no recorded outsider witnesses testimony ever written, that displayed entirely similar happenings, as to conclude same kind of languages/tongues spoken. Apostle Peter's testimony proclaiming the same they also received is based on Acts 2;4 and Joel 2;28-32

Now, as we remember again that on the day of Pentecost, first what happened to the Jew believers while indoor was that gifts of the SPIRIT fell upon them and together they uttered in tongues and soon a crowd who heard these utterances, gathered together and some were amazed in what they were hearing. Then again they also understood the meaning of these utterances and explain them testifying to the multitude who were with them, who did not truly know what was going on. This gave an opportunity for Apostle Peter, standing with the eleven, to Prophesy.

Thank you and Good-by for now, as blessed is the gifts and fellowship of the HOLY SPIRIT, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST and Glory be to our GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, forever and ever, Amen

 

[VCO]

Please dearly beloved, with all due respect as an elder, referring to the first paragraph, let us not mix up between ministering spirits and the gift of tongues in believers. Angels are to my taught Kingdom of GOD knowledge are witnesses and messengers and worshipers and reporters and protectors and rescuers and also warriors .....................(ministering spirits, Hebrews 1;13,14).

On the other hand, about the gift of speaking in tongues given to the Gentile church, Apostle Paul explains clearly about them in 1 Corinthians chapter 14, and in verse 2 a conclusion that:

"For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to GOD, for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the SPIRIT."

For tongues that fell on the day of Pentecost, witnesses understood them and testified. They are different from what Apostle Paul instructions to the Gentile believers in order for them to know and understand the meaning and the use and the control over their tongues, as they continue in the 'The Way', in service to others, 'to serve and not to be served'.

Cornelius and his household were Gentiles. When they received their tongues indoor and together when there was a loud utterance, there were no recorded outsider witnesses testimony ever written, that displayed entirely similar happenings, as to conclude same kind of languages/tongues spoken. Apostle Peter's testimony proclaiming the same they also received is based on Acts 2;4 and Joel 2;28-32

Now, as we remember again that on the day of Pentecost, first what happened to the Jew believers while indoor was that gifts of the SPIRIT fell upon them and together they uttered in tongues and soon a crowd who heard these utterances, gathered together and some were amazed in what they were hearing. Then again they also understood the meaning of these utterances and explain them testifying to the multitude who were with them, who did not truly know what was going on. This gave an opportunity for Apostle Peter, standing with the eleven, to Prophesy.

Thank you and Good-by for now, as blessed is the gifts and fellowship of the HOLY SPIRIT, in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST and Glory be to our GOD, the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, forever and ever, Amen

HOW UNBELIEVABLE that you have to rip the verse out of it's context, in order to make is sound like Paul is giving us instructions on what TO DO, when if you read it in it's context Paul is giving us instructions on WHAT NOT TO DO. Now read your quoted verse in it's intended context:

1 Corinthians 14:1-4 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.


That is Paul giving us a GREAT BIG REASON NOT TO speak in an unknown tongue. How do I know that? Because Paul already, earlier in this VERY LETER, gave the Church specific instructions to Not to let anyone seek his own edification, but instead we are to seek the edification of others:

1 Corinthians 10:23-24 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] All things are lawful; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful; but not all things edify.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Let no man seek his own, but each his neighbor's good {or edification}.

Paul clearly is giving us a reason to NOT TO SEEK TO SPEAK in an unknown tongue How could you miss that? And then further evidence that Paul wants us to speak the Word of God without error in our Churches, instead of seeking to speak in tongues, is this verse:

1 Corinthians 14:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, in order to teach others also, than 10,000 words in ⌊another⌋ language.

And still you all chase after tongues, while almost no one realizes that in Paul's day the phase "to prophesy" meant to "proclaim the Word of God without error". Tell me, if someone in your Church stood while others were edifying SELF, speaking in their ecstatic utterances of tongues, and that other person, who was not speaking in tongues, just stood and quoted a couple verses without error, (either from memory or verses that GOD put on his or her heart to share with the Congregation); would anyone say "PRAISE THE LORD, I UNDERSTAND THAT"? Would some be tempted to boo, because it interrupted the show?




You are the one that got it confused, and thought Paul was saying he spoke in an angelic language, when Paul Did NOT.

Paul was referring to the boldness, and authoritative Voice of an Angel, like when one said in a known and understood language:

Zechariah 1:14-15 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] So the angel who spoke with me said to me, "Proclaim, saying, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts: "I am zealous for Jerusalem And for Zion with great zeal.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] I am exceedingly angry with the nations at ease; For I was a little angry, And they helped--but with evil intent."
Zechariah 5:5 (ESV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Then the angel who talked with me came forward and said to me, “Lift your eyes and see what this is that is going out.”

Luke 1:13-14 (ASV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: because thy supplication is heard, and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

Luke 1:19-20 (ASV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak unto thee, and to bring thee these good tidings.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And behold, thou shalt be silent and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall come to pass, because thou believedst not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Matthew 2:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] After Herod died, an angel of the Lord suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]saying, “Get up! Take the child and His mother and go to the land of Israel, because those who sought the child’s life are dead.”

Luke 1:28-30 (GW)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] When the angel entered her home, he greeted her and said, “You are favored by the Lord! The Lord is with you.”
[SUP]29 [/SUP] She was startled by what the angel said and tried to figure out what this greeting meant.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] The angel told her, “Don't be afraid, Mary. You have found favor with God.

Matthew 28:2-6 (NKJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the angel answered and said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

Revelation 19:9-10 (ESV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

With all of those examples, how can you confuse the understanding of this verse:

1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Every example in the Bible of Angels speaking, shows they speak with boldness, and authority, in the hearers OWN earthly Language; and you would rather believe that Paul was talking about a secret angelic language that no one on earth can understand, while that mirrors the ecstatic babbling unknown languages of the tongues speaking pagan Mystery Religions. If I had not seen this type of "being deceived" by appearances and feelings over and above what the Bible actually says, a multitude of times before in my lifetime, I would say, "That is unbelievable." Like Dave Hunt said, "Those who have fallen for these Charismatic experiences, are setting themselves up to believe the power, the signs, and the lying wonders of the Antichrist." (2 Th. 2:9)

 

[fredjames]

Let us all not also miss out on and disregard to that is written in whole, according to 1 Corinthians chapter 14, with the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT who is the given Teacher, that those who speak in unknown tongues, must also pray for the power of the gift of interpretation. Together with interpretation, they are allowed to speak in 'a gathering'. According Apostle Paul also, let there be two or three, be allowed to speak at one time and the others may take turns.

So that others without tongues and having other gifts there, together in 'a gathering', upon interpretation to the common spoken language understanding there, may understand the meaning of the utterance and the church may confess together, Amen.

Only when there is no interpretation at all, to these spoken unknown tongues, that they who speak and without interpretation at all, must not be allowed to speak but to remain silent and speak between them and GOD.

 

[PleasureEden]

Yes! Mark 16:17, "to them that believe".